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Posted: 2/14/2006 7:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 4:54:46 PM EDT by 95thFoot]
Desperate-sounding editorial from England...seems the war on guns is not working. Go figure!

No more complacency: kill this gun culture
(Filed: 15/02/2006)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/02/15/dl1501.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_15022006

The shooting in Nottingham of a probationary woman police officer, Rachael Bown, reinforces the impression of a loss of control by the authorities over illegal handguns.

Her wounding comes just three months after the murder of another policewoman, Sharon Beshenivsky, during a robbery in Bradford.

The irony of the epidemic of gun crime in Britain is that it comes at a time when those who legally hold firearms are more policed and regulated than ever before.

The heavy-handed approach many police forces take towards licensed owners contrasts with the increasing, and lethal, incidence of unlicensed ones.

Before the shooting of police officers becomes any more habitual than it already is, the Government needs urgently to consider what might best be done to tackle the problem at source.

Many of the illegal weapons in this country come from eastern Europe. Tough airport security means they enter the country through seaports or the Channel Tunnel, smuggled in via the boots of cars, the backs of vans and hidden in lorries.

Customs officers have boasted various triumphs in preventing the illegal importation of alcohol for re-sale. They have clearly been less successful with guns, and might like to reconsider their search procedures.

There seems to be a basic failure of intelligence on the part of the police about the black market in these guns. That needs to be rectified, whether by good, old-fashioned policing, or by officers going undercover in inner-city areas where the trade is rife. Above all, though, the punishment for possessing an illegal firearm - irrespective of whether it is used - needs to be severe.

The offence carries a maximum sentence of 10 years. It is rarely applied. That must change if society is to be protected.

The police have finite resources. It might be as well if officers spent less time checking up on licensed gun owners and channelled resources instead into catching unlicensed ones.

Every time an officer is shot the argument starts up about whether police should be armed. There is a respectable case to be made for this, but not yet a convincing one. Paradoxically, arming the police might make them more rather than less vulnerable.

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.

The de Menezes shooting last July, like that seven years ago of a man armed only with a table leg, shows that even highly trained officers can make awful mistakes.

Arming the police must be the very last resort. Stiffer punishments, ending official complacency about the rise in gun crime, and using all means to take the gun out of society must be tried thoroughly first.



Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:01:24 PM EDT
I heard that they are trying knife bans now.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:01:49 PM EDT
the solution should be pretty damn simple.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:04:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 7:05:42 PM EDT by 95thFoot]
Here's the officer he's talking about. People shooting police is not something the British are used to, at all.

Hunt for gunman as third WPc is shot in street
By Nick Britten
(Filed: 15/02/2006)

A young policewoman was in a serious but stable condition last night after being shot by a suspected burglar.

She is the third policewoman to be shot in three months. A huge hunt was going on for the gunman.


Rachael Bown is under guard in intensive care

Rachael Bown, 23, was shot in the stomach while responding to a domestic burglary at a student house in Nottingham. She was wearing a new version of a standard bullet- and stab-proof vest but the bullet struck her below it.

Detectives were shocked that someone committing a relatively low-level crime should be carrying a gun and be so willing to use it. The shooting has renewed the debate about whether officers should be routinely armed.

In November Pc Sharon Beshenivsky was murdered as she responded to a robbery in Bradford. Her colleague, Pc Teresa Milburn, was wounded in the attack.

Mick Taylor, the chairman of Nottinghamshire Police Federation, criticised the judiciary yesterday for passing lenient sentences for gun-related offences, saying that they provided no deterrent.

He said: "In the past 20 or 30 years there has been a great decrease in the judiciary and law courts taking responsibility for tougher sentencing. Criminals do not serve anywhere near life when they are given a life sentence."

Pc Bown, who was nearing the end of her two years' probation, went to a five-bedroom Edwardian semi in Lenton Boulevard with an experienced male colleague shortly before midnight on Monday.

They came across a suspect in a nearby street and he fled after being challenged. After a short chase he produced a handgun, turned and fired at Pc Bown. Witnesses said that one or two shots were fired.

Pc Bown was driven to the Queen's Medical Centre where she was put under guard in intensive care.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:04:40 PM EDT

The irony of the epidemic of gun crime in Britain is that it comes at a time when those who legally hold firearms are more policed and regulated than ever before.

The heavy-handed approach many police forces take towards licensed owners contrasts with the increasing, and lethal, incidence of unlicensed ones

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:06:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:07:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

The irony of the epidemic of gun crime in Britain is that it comes at a time when those who legally hold firearms are more policed and regulated than ever before.

The heavy-handed approach many police forces take towards licensed owners contrasts with the increasing, and lethal, incidence of unlicensed ones




Like Massachusetts. The cops know they can't stop the criminals, for fear of looking like JBT racists, so they beat up on the law-abiding, in an effort to look pro-active...
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:07:31 PM EDT
I'm sorry their bobbies are dying.

But its a tragedy of their own making.

We warned them.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:08:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
The irony of the epidemic of gun crime in Britain is that it comes at a time when those who legally hold firearms are more policed and regulated than ever before.



No shit? Say it isn't so!


The heavy-handed approach many police forces take towards licensed owners contrasts with the increasing, and lethal, incidence of unlicensed ones.


Really fucking effective, isn't it?


Arming the police must be the very last resort. Stiffer punishments, ending official complacency about the rise in gun crime, and using all means to take the gun out of society must be tried thoroughly first.


Yeah. In the meantime, the cops can continue to be shot to death. REALLY smart!


Unbelieveable.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:08:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:

Like Massachusetts. The cops know they can't stop the criminals, for fear of looking like JBT racists, so they beat up on the law-abiding, in an effort to look pro-active...



That there is simultaneously profound...and scary.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:15:45 PM EDT



The irony of the epidemic of gun crime in Britain is that it comes at a time when those who legally hold firearms are more policed and regulated than ever before.

The heavy-handed approach many police forces take towards licensed owners contrasts with the increasing, and lethal, incidence of unlicensed ones.



it­s a more even handed story than alot of us ones
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:17:39 PM EDT
It seems to me that only police women have been shot ---- BAN POLICE WOMEN!!!

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:11:52 PM EDT
Funny, there is no author listed...

I was going to send him THIS.

And THIS.

Doubt it would do any good anyway...

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:13:23 PM EDT
They reap what they sow
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:13:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 8:14:50 PM EDT by StonerStudent]

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.


That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read.....The writer is bitching about unarmed cops getting shot. And then says that arming them will get them shot.....more?


Sorry if you going try to arrest a armed bad guy...you have better bring you own gun. Unless you want to get laughed at WHILE being shot.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:14:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:18:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cmjohnson:
Will they ever figure it out?



Nah, probably not.



CJ



Not until it is too late, if then.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:22:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:
I'm sorry their bobbies are dying.

But its a tragedy of their own making.

We warned them.




Yeah, more or less.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:26:55 PM EDT

England is going down the shitter.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.


That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read.....The writer is bitching about unarmed cops getting shot. And then says that arming them will get them shot.....more?


Sorry if you going try to arrest a armed bad guy...you have better bring you own gun. Unless you want to get laughed at WHILE being shot.



Exactly, kind of like the people that say "the criminal would just take your gun and shoot you with it"

They look funny when you reply 'you mean they'd take my empty gun while bleeding?'
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:42:32 PM EDT
what amazes me is the ability to come up with such unrealistic, backwards and twisted, illogical conclusions about why a criminal would shoot at the police. Is this the chicken and the egg mix up ? As mentioned, having a fire extinquisher causes fires...I'm sure there's many good analogies.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:45:46 PM EDT

Detectives were shocked that someone committing a relatively low-level crime should be carrying a gun and be so willing to use it.


Criminals not being "rational"... Gee, who'd a thunk it?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:51:01 PM EDT
They send their Police out unarmed?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:57:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Skibane:

Detectives were shocked that someone committing a relatively low-level crime should be carrying a gun and be so willing to use it.


Criminals not being "rational"... Gee, who'd a thunk it?



Armed criminals!!!!!.......how uncivilized!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:59:43 PM EDT
It's a good thing they have such strict gun control so things like this won't happen...
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:59:55 PM EDT
It is o missguided I can only stare at the screen in front of me....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:01:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tz99:

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.


That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read.....The writer is bitching about unarmed cops getting shot. And then says that arming them will get them shot.....more?


Sorry if you going try to arrest a armed bad guy...you have better bring you own gun. Unless you want to get laughed at WHILE being shot.



Exactly, kind of like the people that say "the criminal would just take your gun and shoot you with it"

They look funny when you reply 'you mean they'd take my empty gun while bleeding?'



Yep rates right up there with.....if someone pulled a knife on me, I'd just take it away from them.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:11:18 PM EDT
I was just in England on buisness a few weeks ago. A friend that I work with over there is an avid outdoorsman and he clued me in on the latest ban list which is supported by the same bastards that were successfull in getting guns pretty much banned.

1. Any off road vehicles on public lands.
2. Flying kites in public parks.hing.7. Hunting. Phesant and Fox hunting are allready pretty much outlawed.

Any of the above sound framiliar?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:16:48 PM EDT
Pathetic....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:30:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bonepickerx:
I was just in England on buisness a few weeks ago. A friend that I work with over there is an avid outdoorsman and he clued me in on the latest ban list which is supported by the same bastards that were successfull in getting guns pretty much banned.

1. Any off road vehicles on public lands.
2. Flying kites in public parks.
3. All air soft guns.
4. Knives.
5. Pellet / BB Guns.
6. Fishing.
7. Hunting. Phesant and Fox hunting are allready pretty much outlawed.

Any of the above sound framiliar?



So when are they going to outlaw breathing?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:35:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:

Originally Posted By tz99:

Originally Posted By StonerStudent:

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.


That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever read.....The writer is bitching about unarmed cops getting shot. And then says that arming them will get them shot.....more?


Sorry if you going try to arrest a armed bad guy...you have better bring you own gun. Unless you want to get laughed at WHILE being shot.



Exactly, kind of like the people that say "the criminal would just take your gun and shoot you with it"

They look funny when you reply 'you mean they'd take my empty gun while bleeding?'



Yep rates right up there with.....if someone pulled a knife on me, I'd just take it away from them.


And then harshly scold them: "We DO NOT carry KNIVES in this neighborhood, young man!" They then hang their head in shame and wait for the unarmed police to arrive.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:38:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zaphar:

Originally Posted By bonepickerx:
I was just in England on buisness a few weeks ago. A friend that I work with over there is an avid outdoorsman and he clued me in on the latest ban list which is supported by the same bastards that were successfull in getting guns pretty much banned.

1. Any off road vehicles on public lands.
2. Flying kites in public parks.
3. All air soft guns.
4. Knives.
5. Pellet / BB Guns.
6. Fishing.
7. Hunting. Phesant and Fox hunting are allready pretty much outlawed.

Any of the above sound framiliar?



So when are they going to outlaw breathing?



When it offends the Muslims, probably.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:34:45 PM EDT

Gun Culture.

Is that where you swab out the throat of the bore, smear the swab on a slide and check it under a microscope?

What next, two fingers under the lower receiver and cough?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:46:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:46:48 AM EDT
I've never understood the whole "if you pull a weapon on a criminal, they're more likely to hurt/kill you" argument.

1) If I'm pulling a weapon, it's because I'm in fear for my life. THEY'RE ALREADY TRYING TO HURT OR KILL ME.

2) You seriously think they'd be more likely to harm me when I pull a fricking weapon on them with the intent of killing them before they kill me? They're more likely to DIE.



So, bobbies are getting killed by criminals. So instead of arming their police, they, once again, punish the law-abiding by villainizing their BB guns, airsoft, cooking knives, and what few firearms they're allowed to own. Riiiiiiiiight.

So not only is the majority of the UK's population either socialist jerkwads or mindless sheeple, but they're also RETARDED?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:55:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:56:39 AM EDT
They are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:21:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
So not only is the majority of the UK's population either socialist jerkwads or mindless sheeple, but they're also RETARDED?




The majority of the British Public don't get asked.

When a BBC Poll came up with the fact that 70% of homeowners wanted the right to use deadly force against burglars the .Gov promptly ignored it...


ANdy



In other words, citizens of the U.K. don't have true democratically elected representation in their governing bodies?
Sounds like tyranny to me.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:34:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zaphar:
So when are they going to outlaw breathing?



Not nearly soon enough.

-James
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:34:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
So not only is the majority of the UK's population either socialist jerkwads or mindless sheeple, but they're also RETARDED?



The majority of the British Public don't get asked.

When a BBC Poll came up with the fact that 70% of homeowners wanted the right to use deadly force against burglars the .Gov promptly ignored it...

ANdy


i remember that! wasn't there some labor mp who said he'd do what his subjects wanted and when they overwhelmingly said they wanted the right to protect themselves he ranted and railed at what a buncha bloodthirsty bastards they were?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:44:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:45:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 6:17:03 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:04:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
Every time an officer is shot the argument starts up about whether police should be armed. There is a respectable case to be made for this, but not yet a convincing one. Paradoxically, arming the police might make them more rather than less vulnerable.

And having a fire extinguisher makes it more likely you'll experience a fire, right?




Just like all the equipment on a fire truck makes the fire more likely or more intense.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:09:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
.
.
.
An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to GIVE UP WHEN HE HAS A .45 AIMED AT HIS CHEST!
.
.
.



What in heck are these politicians thinking?
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 5:39:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
So not only is the majority of the UK's population either socialist jerkwads or mindless sheeple, but they're also RETARDED?



The majority of the British Public don't get asked.

When a BBC Poll came up with the fact that 70% of homeowners wanted the right to use deadly force against burglars the .Gov promptly ignored it...

ANdy


i remember that! wasn't there some labor mp who said he'd do what his subjects wanted and when they overwhelmingly said they wanted the right to protect themselves he ranted and railed at what a buncha bloodthirsty bastards they were?



That's the one! I'm still a bloodthirty bastard!

ANdy



Well then, carry on.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:24:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 6:24:51 AM EDT by NonConformist]

all means to take the gun out of society must be tried thoroughly first.




Because this has OBVIOUSLY worked so well thus far
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 6:33:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Strats:

Originally Posted By 95thFoot:
.
.
.
An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to kill, before he is killed.

An armed criminal confronted by an armed police officer is more likely to GIVE UP WHEN HE HAS A .45 AIMED AT HIS CHEST!
.
.
.



What in heck are these politicians thinking?




THINKING?

No thinking involved that I can see. When the country decends into anarchy hopefully a leader capable of rational though will rise from the ashes. Mr. Churchhill, your kinsmen need you.....
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 4:54:12 PM EDT
For those interested, there's been an arrest in the case:

Wpc shooting: man arrested on plane
By Nick Britten
(Filed: 18/02/2006)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/18/nwpc18.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_18022006

Police investigating the shooting of Pc Rachael Bown yesterday arrested a man they had named as a suspect.

Trevon Kyron Thomas, 24, was removed from a plane as it was about to take off from Heathrow airport.


Trevon Kyron Thomas
Hours earlier Nottinghamshire police had sent Thomas's details to other forces.

He was arrested by Metropolitan police officers at 11am and handed over to Nottinghamshire police, who last night began to question him.

Pc Bown, who is on a ventilator in hospital, was shot in the stomach while investigating a robbery in Lenton, Nottingham, in the early hours of Tuesday.

She was looking for suspects in the area and when she stopped a man to question him, he fled. Pc Bown and her partner, an experienced officer, gave chase. When they cornered a man in Forster Street, he opened fire, hitting her just below her body armour.

It emerged yesterday that Thomas had been seen several times in the street near his home in Hyson Green in the days after the shooting.

Neighbours said that he had a public confrontation with a local man on Wednesday, which ended with the man threatening him, and had been spotted in his car several times since Pc Bown was hit.

Armed officers raided Thomas's house on Thursday but found it deserted.

Thomas was born in Trinidad but moved to Nottingham several years ago where he lived with his girlfriend, Natalie Topping. The couple are believed to have a two-year-old daughter.

A neighbour, Cim Berishaj, a Kosovan, said: "I last saw Thomas last Friday. He saw me looking at him through the window and shouted 'What are you looking at'.

"I rang the police but my English isn't so good and I'm not sure if they ever arrived.

"I didn't like him - he threatened my kids just because they went into his garden to get a ball." Thomas also allegedly had connections with a house in the Bilborough area of the city, where officers on Thursday removed a white Honda Civic.

Police described Thomas as 5ft 9in tall, of slim build, with short, cropped black hair and pierced earlobes.

He has one or more gold teeth on the right side of his mouth and speaks with a mild Caribbean accent.

Miss Bown, a probationary officer, underwent a five-hour operation after the shooting. She appeared to be recovering well, but needed further surgery on Thursday after developing a lung and chest infection. Her family has kept a vigil at her bedside, at the Queens Medical Centre, since she was injured.

Nottinghamshire police said that she was awake in her bed and her condition remained stable.

A spokesman said: "This morning the Metropolitan Police arrested a 24-year-old man in connection with the shooting of Pc Rachael Bown.

"He was arrested at Heathrow airport. He is the man Nottinghamshire detectives have been keen to trace and whose details were issued to the public earlier.

"Those details have previously been circulated to all police forces and law enforcement agencies across the country."

16 February 2006: Yardie gangster is main suspect in hunt over shooting of policewoman

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:10:08 PM EDT
Exactly what the hell good is a bullet proof vest if the criminal just walks up to you because you are unarmed and puts a round thru your brainpan?

I shake my head at the stupidity of the frikkin British Govt. How THEY decended from what used to be the adventurers and explorers of deepest darkest Africa is beyond me. Blue blood my ass, the blood runs yellow in their cowardly liberal veins. Disarm a Country, then wail boo hoo when the bad guys take over................barf.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:42:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
Exactly what the hell good is a bullet proof vest if the criminal just walks up to you because you are unarmed and puts a round thru your brainpan?



Actually he allegedly shot her below the vest. Worse.


I shake my head at the stupidity of the frikkin British Govt. How THEY decended from what used to be the adventurers and explorers of deepest darkest Africa is beyond me. Blue blood my ass, the blood runs yellow in their cowardly liberal veins. Disarm a Country, then wail boo hoo when the bad guys take over................barf.


Well-intentioned idealists, who, a hundred years ago were attempting to civilize the Empire. Now, no more Empire, but the impulse is still there. So, they "civilize" Britain instead.

Sadly, the unintended consequence is to leave the UK riper for deviants and psychopaths who know how to work the system to their advantage. The good people are left defenceless, spineless, demoralized, weak prey.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:46:07 PM EDT

Paradoxically, arming the police might make them more rather than less vulnerable.






I don't even know where to start on that idiotic statement.

Isn't that the same thing as saying "If I have a fire extinguisher in my house, I'm MORE likely to have a fire." - ?


This is so stupid and insane, it almost can't be real.

CMOS
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