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Posted: 2/14/2006 7:51:02 AM EDT
I was flying the other day and forgot that I had two pistol magazines in my luggage. Did I mention I only had a carry on!!!

I put it in the case for the xray machine and was waiting on the other side when the woman said something to the guard. I thought she was commenting on my new holster (I had gone to a gunshow this past weekend, a range bag, two 8 rd .45 mags, and a holster for my 1911). Anyway he tells her to turn the monitor so he can see it. She says "I think those are clips."

At this point I thought, oh shit, the magazines. and said "Do you mean the pistol magazines"

They started talking code somecolor and all the lines stopped doing their security checks. I stood there untill a TSA woman asked me if I had my ID. I said it was in the xray machine. She told me to get it. As I was trying to get my coat with my ID in the pocket, but before I could, a security guard asked me to come with him and took my bag from the rollers and asked me to follow him. I went and stood next to him at a table 10 feet away from the xray machine and he asked "Where are the magazines" I started to point saying I think they are in this area and he politely but firmly said "Do not touch the bag" At this point the TSA woman told me to get on the other side of the table. She was kind of rude about it or maybe just being by the book.

The security guard had to dig through my bag till he found the magsbecause I literally threw all my stuff in and was not sure where the magazines were. I thought they were by the socks but was not sure. So he found the magazines and gave it to a TSA guy. They TSA turned to me and asked my for my ID and my ticket. I told him they were still in the machine. He let me go get them unescorted. I had to get someone to run the stuff through the machine because it had stopped with my coat inside it. I got my ID and ticket and gave it to the TSA guy.

I then sat next to the security guard, on the wrong side of the table again and he asked me a few questions. Officially he asked "What do you do? Why do you have the magazines? Did you intentionally try and bring them aboard a plane?" As soon as I finished answering his questions he realized I was just a dork who really did completely forget about the gun parts in my luggage. He asked if I knew they were not allowed on the plain. I said I even noted the notice saying guns must be checked at the ticket line and it had not even occured to me that I had the magazines in my bag.

He seemed much more friendly after that. I talked to him about what he carried. I did not hear the model but it was a Sig Sauer .45. He said he had seven in the mag and one in the pipe. I told him I had a Springfield 1911 at home and had bought the mags at a gunshow because they were 8 round. He wondered if they made them for his sig and I said as soon as I get them back I will give him one of the papers that came with it so he could look them up on-line.

"I am going to get them back, right?"
"Oh yeah you will just need to check your luggage."

This kind of pissed me off because I also bought a Benchmade knife this weekend (not at the gunshow) but left some money with my brother to ship it because I did not want to check my bag. The guard just laughed at that and pulled out his Benchmade. The whole time I was hearing my brother laugh in my head because he said I should just bring the knife and check the luggage.

So the TSA people wrote down my info, took pics of the mags and my ID, escorted me out of the security area, asked me to check my luggage and made sure I was aware that NO gun parts were allowed on a plane and said have a good day.

I checked my luggage went back through security no more problems. The gate I went through was still closed though.

Everyone was very nice and fairly courteous. Except for the lady who seemed more upset at the paperwork than anything.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:54:54 AM EDT
Yeah, you never know what havoc you may wreak with some empty mags....

Shit add a pair of nailclippers to that and you can rule the world!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 7:58:02 AM EDT
amk5222: Yeah also get a set of knitting needles. That would really freak out those TSA goons. I really feel safer already knowing that the TSA is on guard cavity searching little old ladies.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:03:42 AM EDT
You made a federal employee do extra paperwork!

no wonder they were pissed
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:05:35 AM EDT
I really don't mind the extra security. But it pissed me off when I was coming back from a deployment and I had to surrender the allen wrench that installed the acog on my rifle. I had left it in my wallet. I should have known that I might drop my wallet midflight and depressurize the aircraft by letting that wrench jiggle around in there...
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:08:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
You made a federal employee do extra paperwork!

no wonder they were pissed



A federal contractor.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:10:27 AM EDT
What a frikin idiot. What kind of moron tries to bring pistol magazines aboard an aircraft. Think about it. What if 15 people each smuggle on one piece of a pistol and assembled it in the shitter!!! You are lucky you didn't try to bring FIRE onto the aircraft. (did they shoot your dog?)
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:13:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:16:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ENGLT:
What a frikin idiot. What kind of moron tries to bring pistol magazines aboard an aircraft. Think about it. What if 15 people each smuggle on one piece of a pistol and assembled it in the shitter!!! You are lucky you didn't try to bring FIRE onto the aircraft. (did they shoot your dog?)



Well my dumbass brother who is a Lt in the Army with some engineering btn in NC did not say a thing about the mags, otherwise I would not have given him 9 bucks to ship the knife, I would just have checked the whole damn thing and avoided the whole mess.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:16:03 AM EDT
Doesn't sound like the guy was being a dildo about it.

Regs is regs.


It sucks when that happens, but, hell, I forgot and put
a Leatherman in my carry on once.

I was late for the plane, so, I just gave it up.

Rules is rules, after all.

I wouldn't have thought pistol mags would've been restricted.....I guess I've always
checked all my luggage with weapons, ammo and the like anyways.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:17:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:19:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
Yeah also get a set of knitting needles. That would really freak out those TSA goons.



Twice in the last two months I have seen people knitting on a plane...scared shitless I was....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:19:46 AM EDT
I feel SO much fucking safer now.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:20:48 AM EDT
you can't bring fire onto a plane either. Just an FYI.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:24:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Yeah, you never know what havoc you may wreak with some empty mags....



No kidding... what were you thinking Rambo. Empty mags on a plane... you might as well have had a ticking bomb in your bag...

TSA... they never cease to amaze me in how they can't deviate from the "rules" with an ounce of common sense.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
you can't bring fire onto a plane either. Just an FYI.



Put the lighter inside your cig pack. Goes right through.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pzjgr:
Yeah, you never know what havoc you may wreak with some empty mags....

Shit add a pair of nailclippers to that and you can rule the world!



But seriously...you can bring a GLASS bottle from the duty free shop on board a flight, but they'll take that nail clipper from you. I KNOW the terrorists are laughing at us
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:31:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 8:37:47 AM EDT by ENGLT]

Originally Posted By amk5222:

Originally Posted By ENGLT:
What a frikin idiot. What kind of moron tries to bring pistol magazines aboard an aircraft. Think about it. What if 15 people each smuggle on one piece of a pistol and assembled it in the shitter!!! You are lucky you didn't try to bring FIRE onto the aircraft. (did they shoot your dog?)



Well my dumbass brother who is a Lt in the Army with some engineering btn in NC did not say a thing about the mags, otherwise I would not have given him 9 bucks to ship the knife, I would just have checked the whole damn thing and avoided the whole mess.



your brother probably spent 7 bucks on lunch then used the other two to ship you you a ripped envelope and put the knife in his pocket. Good luck getting it. And I would bet that your brother did warn you but you thought you could just sneak it by the TSA
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:37:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:
You made a federal employee do extra paperwork!

no wonder they were pissed




Exactly!

It could have been worse. You could have got the KGB Shakedown.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:41:50 AM EDT
On a recent flight i was screened in the same manner...double checked and triple checked to ensure that I was as sterile as a petri dish before getting in the plane. An hour into the flight I was given a glass bottle of wine, and a steel fork & knife for my dinner.

Come to think of it, its a lot like going to a football game. You cant bring your own beer into the stadium with you, but they will happily sell you their beer at the concession once inside.

Pathetic from every angle.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:42:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 8:43:00 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By amk5222:

Originally Posted By ENGLT:
What a frikin idiot. What kind of moron tries to bring pistol magazines aboard an aircraft. Think about it. What if 15 people each smuggle on one piece of a pistol and assembled it in the shitter!!! You are lucky you didn't try to bring FIRE onto the aircraft. (did they shoot your dog?)



Well my dumbass brother who is a Lt in the Army with some engineering btn in NC did not say a thing about the mags, otherwise I would not have given him 9 bucks to ship the knife, I would just have checked the whole damn thing and avoided the whole mess.



Never trust an Engineer LT with anything more complex than a lollipop.

ENGLT, you are not in the 27th by any chance are ya?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:53:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

ENGLT, you are not in the 27th by any chance are ya?



Nope, I am in the unit formeerly known as the 307th. Modularity has made us the A CO, 3RD Brigade Special Troops Battalion
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 8:55:02 AM EDT
$1500 in 20s will set off the metal detector and the wand. Don't ask me how I know.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:04:24 AM EDT
All the more reason I love flying military air. The last set of flights I was on I ended up helping load our passengers' gear on the jet and in the end was stuck holding a small ammo can.

As I had work to do to get us off into the wild blue I had no recourse but to ask "okay, who's guns do I have?" The owner claimed them, we flew off, and no dogs were harmed.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:10:11 AM EDT
My favorite adventure in idiocy is what happeded to the GIs in DS.


1. Hand the person at the gate your rifle, ammo, grenades, bayonet, etc, etc.

2.Go through the metal detector.

3. When you have proven you are unarmed and not a danger, they hand you back your rifle, ammo, grenades and bayonet.

4. Board plane.


I've heard the stories off and on for years. Wonder how true it is?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:12:38 AM EDT
Its unclear whether youve heard the last of this. At one time, in the recent past, trying to bring a prohibited item(s) into the secure area would get them confiscated AND theyd send you a citation to the tune of $150. Perhaps since they allowed you to keep your mags you wont have to pay the fine. I think this whole silly dance to fly on a plane is way out of control. It has little to do w/ thinking and common sens, very much akin to Zero Tolerance.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:19:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By amk5222:
This kind of pissed me off because I also bought a Benchmade knife this weekend (not at the gunshow) but left some money with my brother to ship it because I did not want to check my bag. The guard just laughed at that and pulled out his Benchmade. The whole time I was hearing my brother laugh in my head because he said I should just bring the knife and check the luggage.


Actually, you would have had the knife confiscated. You did the right thing having your brother mail it.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:25:35 AM EDT
LOL good one man!


lilhi jack but my tsa/customs story is kinda along them lines.


2 years ago trying to return after a super shitty canadian hunting trip,i got busted.
All of my trips have resulted in a pat downor wand wavein fest. i dunno why. this trip went well tho,, made it outta the US fine comeing back was a diff story.

the last day of our hunt sucked,, it was low 30's and raining. So once back in camp i threw my parka and gear in my luggage. well i had 4 30-06 sheels in the lil pocket of the parka that i had forgot about!
So we are going thru customs, atthi stime my father and mother are asked to step aside becuase my dads visa showed up as exp. even tho he just renew'd. So off they get taken, meanwhile our plane leaves in 1 1/2 hour. so i get car keys from my folks told see you at home,,we hope and off me and my wife go to check our bags.
I walk up toos my luggage thru the machine and waitto retriveit . wrong. its snagged and we are taken to the TABLE. Here at this table is a 90lb man of some mid east/asian decent and a young lady thats was phillipino(sp). I get the wheres the bullets, canyou get them ect. Meanwhile the 90lb guy is
" what is this hunting you speak of..."
me: umm its when you go into the woods and kill an animal to eat....
90lb'r : why? can you not get this meat from a store?
me: umm why would i wanna do that,, they dont sell this kinda meat inthe stores..
90lbr'; WHY? i do not understand this...
young lady : my brothers backhome hunt..
me: thats cool
90lbr: gives me the hey shes mine look get bent "hmmmm is it good to eat?"

by now their super has come over he is the older version of the 90lbr, he walks up to me like he's gonna kiss me. Whats your name,,where sthe bullets( as they are handed over and finger fucked)
why do you have them? why did younot check them? Do you want them checked?

the whole time i could hardly understand this guy, his accent was so strong i was kinda working just to figure out wtf he said. So now the OPP( ont, prov. police show up) guys is talkin and im asking
" what? say that again.. huh?"
which is pissing him and the 90lbr off to no end.

OPP ask if i wanna check the ammo, or have them dispose of it. i say take it i dont even own that caliber at home,, explian the trip shitty weather ,,he is laughing ect.
Now 90lb guys super has come back with pad and paper..upsetthat ive ignored him for the OPP officer.

let me see your ID and tickets, where do you work,,where do you live,is this your phone number, howlong you live there.... imkinda annoyed at all this info being handed out so i start on the " WHAT say again,,huh,, can you repeat that?" he finally gives up and im on my way.
my parents walked up just as this was ending, and were laughing. Of course my farther chew's me out for being a smart ass to the guy ect...
oh well thats my angry customs/tsa story,,sorry for the hijack
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:26:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tripledouble:

Originally Posted By amk5222:
This kind of pissed me off because I also bought a Benchmade knife this weekend (not at the gunshow) but left some money with my brother to ship it because I did not want to check my bag. The guard just laughed at that and pulled out his Benchmade. The whole time I was hearing my brother laugh in my head because he said I should just bring the knife and check the luggage.


Actually, you would have had the knife confiscated. You did the right thing having your brother mail it.



ummhe can check the bags knives ect are allowed to go thru least mine have the last 4 trip sive done to Canada to hunt,,, long as they are checked im sure its cool.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:36:37 AM EDT
Well, lets hope I never go on a plane.... so much gun powder residue on my stuff that I'd prob set off the sniffers.....

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 9:53:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
My favorite adventure in idiocy is what happeded to the GIs in DS.


1. Hand the person at the gate your rifle, ammo, grenades, bayonet, etc, etc.

2.Go through the metal detector.

3. When you have proven you are unarmed and not a danger, they hand you back your rifle, ammo, grenades and bayonet.

4. Board plane.


I've heard the stories off and on for years. Wonder how true it is?



After the war was over, we had to turn in all ammunition including grenades. There were none legally taken on board any aircraft.

They also ran us through the the metal detectors with our weapons, but the detectors were OFF.

The MPs were tired as hell and mad to have been gotten out of bed at 3 AM to send my unit on a plane... hence we didn't really have to declare anything, the only thing they gave a damn about was seeing the bottoms of our spare boots in our duffels, to make sure no soil was going with.

Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:27:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 10:28:49 AM EDT by ODA_564]
DESERT STORM...

I flew from King Abdul Aziz AB Dahahran KSA to Incirlik AB TU via Rhein-Main AFB (GE) on a C-141 (C-130 from Rhein-Main to Incirlik). I had a loaded M9 pistol and 10 loaded M16 magazines (and an M16).

This was highly well-planned by my command (NOT!). "Take this and these people and go to Turkey" was the sum total of their input.

During the overnight at Rhein-Main, I walked all around the airbase with weapons and ammo. No one had a clue as to what I should do with them.

On the way back we flew commercial from Westover AFB MA to Fayetteville. Westover put us up in 'contract billeting' (Holiday Inn in Springfield MA). My detachment had all their M16A2s, etc. (no ammo).

When we flew out of Bradley International Airport (Windsor Locks, CT) the USAF Reserve Security Forces ("Security Police" then) escorts were all MA and CT state police and local MA and CT LEO. After consulting with the SPs, local LEO, and the US Airways counter agent, I put all of our weapons into two dufflebags (broken down) and checked them (fight was non-stop to Charlotte). Following the advice of the ticket agent who was winking when he asked me (and with all the LEOs standing aroung laughing), I declared "no firearms" (as we had no hard case, locks, etc, US Airways could not accept any "firearms" and we wanted to get home).

I escorted the bags to the plane with an SP who was a CT state trooper and a Windsor Locks cop.

In Charlotte, US Airways had me deplane first and walked me across the tarmac with the "luggage".

And on both flights US Airways served us free champagne (but not any one else!).

When we got to Fayetteville, our rear detachment proved once again why they were the rear detachment. No one met us. No one was around to open the arms room. I took our weapons out to Bragg in a privately owned vehicle (big no-no) and hand receipted them to the staff duty officer (he found the keys to the arms room pretty damn quick).

Figure we broke / ignored a huge pile of regulations, laws (Federal and several states'), and policies - most of them with the active assistance of various agencies.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:43:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By protus:

Originally Posted By tripledouble:

Originally Posted By amk5222:
This kind of pissed me off because I also bought a Benchmade knife this weekend (not at the gunshow) but left some money with my brother to ship it because I did not want to check my bag. The guard just laughed at that and pulled out his Benchmade. The whole time I was hearing my brother laugh in my head because he said I should just bring the knife and check the luggage.


Actually, you would have had the knife confiscated. You did the right thing having your brother mail it.



ummhe can check the bags knives ect are allowed to go thru least mine have the last 4 trip sive done to Canada to hunt,,, long as they are checked im sure its cool.



I was not planning on checking anything though. If I had realized/remembered the mags were a no no I would have brought the knife and checked the whole shebang. We will see if I get a bill. They did take down all the info.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:08:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 1:08:54 AM EDT by 71-Hour_Achmed]
What's really fucking sad is that back around mid-1995, I forgot I'd bought some of the new "reduced capacity" Glock magazines while traveling, and had them in my jacket pocket when I went through the metal detector. They set off the metal detector, the guard came over, searched me, and found the mags.

I said "oops", he looked at them, saw they were empty, handed them back to me, and I went and boarded the plane.

Norm Mineta has *GOT* to go. Why in the fuck did Bush appoint that Democratic fucktard? All he's done is make ridiculous rulings like "no magazines or nailclippers" and enforce the "strip-search everyone equally" rule.
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:29:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By piccolo:
My favorite adventure in idiocy is what happeded to the GIs in DS.


1. Hand the person at the gate your rifle, ammo, grenades, bayonet, etc, etc.

2.Go through the metal detector.

3. When you have proven you are unarmed and not a danger, they hand you back your rifle, ammo, grenades and bayonet.

4. Board plane.


I've heard the stories off and on for years. Wonder how true it is?



When I was in the Corps....and my company did our 6 month rotation to Mt. Fuji, (1987) on the way back we had a stopover in Alaska to do "customs". We did exactly as you said. handed all our gear to the guard, dropped knives in with keys in the little baskets, walekd through the metal detector, retrieved our gear.

It was a military chartered airplane, and the terminal wing we were in was not open to the public.

BTW... I know what happens to OLD flight attendents....they get put on military charters.

No Expert
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 1:32:08 AM EDT
If you have anymore contact with them, can you please ask them to return my Gerber they stole out of my checked baggage!!!!



Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:11:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 2:12:34 AM EDT by myname]
One time when I was flying I had a layover and desided to do some shopping, bought a nice pocket knife and brought it on the plane. The shop was after the security checkpoint and the had 8 inch kitchen knives that you could buy and then take straight on the plane free of hassle from security.

edited for spelling
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 2:26:18 AM EDT
I accidentally took 2 rounds of .45 through security 3 times (including an extra time through because I had a camcorder in there by mistake) and they never saw it. Didn't even know I had it until I got home...
Link Posted: 2/15/2006 3:59:18 AM EDT
Coming home from Nepal once I had to spend the night in London. I landed at Heathrow but had to make my connection the next day at Gatwick. Since I was leaving the terminal I had to pass through customs. When I put my checked bags on the table the British customs agent asked if I had anything to declare. I replied "no" but he instructed me to open my bags for inspection. As he rifled through my stuff he pulled out a jacket that contained 5 Kukuri knives (the long-ass ones) I was bringing home. He got all excited, I guess he figured he was getting a promotion for this bust. He called for armed security who isolated me and he kept loudly proclaiming that "those are offensive weapons, thats what they are". A few minutes later a supervisor showed up and looked at the knives, asked me where I got them, where I was going and what I intended to do with them. After he looked at my tickets for travel the next day and my story regarding how they had come to be my property he pondered for a moment and then said "these are not sharpened" (they were in fact VERY sharp) "Sir, would you say that these are decorative, native art" after a couple seconds I realized that he indeed wanted me to say "these are decorative native art" which I did. He then smiled, had the first agent stamp my passport and visa and told me to enjoy my night in London and even suggested a pub near Gatwick Airport to spend a few hours on my way to the terminal. The first agent seemed pretty pissed that his sup. had opened a loophole for me to get through and didn't say a word as I repacked my bags and went on my way

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:24:01 AM EDT
This thread is entertaining so far.

Link Posted: 2/15/2006 4:51:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2006 4:51:35 AM EDT by JohanLondon]

Originally Posted By protus:
LOL good one man!


lilhi jack but my tsa/customs story is kinda along them lines.


2 years ago trying to return after a super shitty canadian hunting trip,i got busted.
All of my trips have resulted in a pat downor wand wavein fest. i dunno why. this trip went well tho,, made it outta the US fine comeing back was a diff story.

the last day of our hunt sucked,, it was low 30's and raining. So once back in camp i threw my parka and gear in my luggage. well i had 4 30-06 sheels in the lil pocket of the parka that i had forgot about!
So we are going thru customs, atthi stime my father and mother are asked to step aside becuase my dads visa showed up as exp. even tho he just renew'd. So off they get taken, meanwhile our plane leaves in 1 1/2 hour. so i get car keys from my folks told see you at home,,we hope and off me and my wife go to check our bags.
I walk up toos my luggage thru the machine and waitto retriveit . wrong. its snagged and we are taken to the TABLE. Here at this table is a 90lb man of some mid east/asian decent and a young lady thats was phillipino(sp). I get the wheres the bullets, canyou get them ect. Meanwhile the 90lb guy is
" what is this hunting you speak of..."
me: umm its when you go into the woods and kill an animal to eat....
90lb'r : why? can you not get this meat from a store?
me: umm why would i wanna do that,, they dont sell this kinda meat inthe stores..
90lbr'; WHY? i do not understand this...
young lady : my brothers backhome hunt..
me: thats cool
90lbr: gives me the hey shes mine look get bent "hmmmm is it good to eat?"

by now their super has come over he is the older version of the 90lbr, he walks up to me like he's gonna kiss me. Whats your name,,where sthe bullets( as they are handed over and finger fucked)
why do you have them? why did younot check them? Do you want them checked?

the whole time i could hardly understand this guy, his accent was so strong i was kinda working just to figure out wtf he said. So now the OPP( ont, prov. police show up) guys is talkin and im asking
" what? say that again.. huh?"
which is pissing him and the 90lbr off to no end.

OPP ask if i wanna check the ammo, or have them dispose of it. i say take it i dont even own that caliber at home,, explian the trip shitty weather ,,he is laughing ect.
Now 90lb guys super has come back with pad and paper..upsetthat ive ignored him for the OPP officer.

let me see your ID and tickets, where do you work,,where do you live,is this your phone number, howlong you live there.... imkinda annoyed at all this info being handed out so i start on the " WHAT say again,,huh,, can you repeat that?" he finally gives up and im on my way.
my parents walked up just as this was ending, and were laughing. Of course my farther chew's me out for being a smart ass to the guy ect...
oh well thats my angry customs/tsa story,,sorry for the hijack




PS, your posts are impossible to read. Spacing, formatting and spelling need work if you want others to read them...sorry be a Nazi.
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