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Posted: 2/13/2006 9:24:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 9:27:22 PM EDT by smallmonkey]
err, my topic got automatically formated to be all in caps, I meant to post HPs (hollow points)

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N04392349



S. agent killed Mexican with "dum-dum" bullet
Wed 4 Jan 2006 7:41 PM ET

MEXICO CITY, Jan 4 (Reuters) - The U.S. Border Patrol used a "dum-dum" bullet, banned in international war but standard issue for border agents, to kill an 18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant whose death last week angered Mexico.

The hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on impact, cause much more tissue damage and bleeding than standard rounds.

A Border Patrol spokesman said on Wednesday the bullet fired into Guillermo Martinez after he crossed the U.S. border near San Diego on Friday was a .40-caliber hollow-point round.

The ammunition is banned in international warfare under a century-old treaty but is standard issue for the Border Patrol and some U.S. police departments.

"The agent in question was carrying a .40-caliber Beretta ... a .40-caliber round," Nicholas Coates, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's San Diego sector, told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Coates said the bullet fired was hollow-tipped and that "all Border Patrol agents carry hollow-tipped rounds."

The ammunition is banned under the 1899 Hague Convention, which prohibits use in warfare of expanding or fragmenting bullets, generally referred to as "dum-dum" rounds after an Indian arsenal where they were introduced in the 19th century.

Mexican rights groups and witnesses said Martinez, who had crossed into the United States with three other men including his brother, was shot in the chest.

He managed to walk back over the border to Mexico and was treated at Tijuana's Red Cross hospital. Surgeons operated on him twice, but he died the next day.

Mexico this week called for a formal investigation into the shooting, which came weeks after a U.S. lawmaker proposed a plan to fortify part of the U.S.-Mexico border with a high-tech wall to stop illegal immigrants.

The Border Patrol said the agent shot Martinez after the Mexican had twice hurled rocks at him. The unnamed agent has been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation.

Each year, an unknown number of Mexicans attempt to cross the deserts and rivers marking the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border in search of work in the United States.

The Border Patrol arrested almost 1.2 million undocumented immigrants making the journey last year. At least 464 died en route, many from heat exposure.




The mexican government is giving press releases saying that it was unfair to shoot someone with a working bullet.

They even have a cute name for it "dum-dum" (well that is not new, but I do not think anyone has used that word in at least 50 years)
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:37:10 PM EDT
Well if I cant use them in the Army, then neither should the Po.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:49:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 9:50:07 PM EDT by BangStick1]
Who's the "dum-dum" now?


When will people learn......Don't throw rocks at people with guns!!


Especially, if those people have the full protection of the gov't behind them.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:52:49 PM EDT
So does Mexico concede that there is a state of war between the US and Mexico and that Martinez was part of the Mexican invasion of the United States?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 9:59:39 PM EDT
dum-dum ass assaulted someone with a rock and that person could and did fight back! screw him!

"The ammunition is banned under the 1899 Hague Convention, which prohibits use in warfare of expanding or fragmenting bullets, generally referred to as "dum-dum" rounds after an Indian arsenal where they were introduced in the 19th century."


is mexico saying they are at war on us?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:00:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 10:01:26 PM EDT by SimonPhoto]
I could not find that Mexico was participated in the signing of the Hague Convention, but if they were, and they are now complaining that we are using expanding ammunition, this amounts to a backhanded declaration of war. The Convention explicitly states "The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them."

Therefore, if they are asserting that we should be following the guidelines set forth in this treaty, it follows that they are recognizing the state of war between themselves and the US.



ETA: Grrr, beat to the punch :) That'll teach me to Google my sources!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:00:46 PM EDT
I also found the whole Geneva convention/warfare thing funny. Last I knew, neither country had a written war declaration out. The mexican's are really grasping at straws with this one.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:02:39 PM EDT
Sounds like the MEXICAN doctors killed him, not the bullet.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:03:52 PM EDT
We never signed the Hague Convention anyway.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:05:39 PM EDT
Correct me if I'm wrong (and could very well be) but I don't think the U.S. signed the Hauge watchamacallit. If not then it should'nt apply anyway. Besides the BP probably carries the same type of ammo your local friendly LEO carries.



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:06:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
Well if I cant use them in the Army, then neither should the Po.



I agree. A .40SW "dum-dum" is inaddequit (sp).
The agent should have been equipped with a belt-fed 40mm auto grenade launcher.

Expanding projectiles aren't needed in that case.

Midwinter

PS the prohibition on "dum-dum" bullets is only in WAR, nothing to do with police actions
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:08:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BangStick1:
Who's the "dum-dum" now?


When will people learn......Don't throw rocks at people with guns!!


Especially, if those people have the full protection of the gov't behind them.



I have to agree.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:09:01 PM EDT
NO i think this is REUTERS commie sht. THE ONES THAT BROUGHT U HELL. THOMAS
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:09:39 PM EDT
so since US LEOs should not use HPs/JHPs under the Hague accords, does that mean that war has been declared?

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:12:05 PM EDT
I cant understand why it would be wrond to use a lethal bullet? Is that not the point of shooting someone? Stupid people with nothing better to do than make up dumbass rules.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:22:21 PM EDT




He managed to walk back over the border to Mexico and was treated at Tijuana's Red Cross hospital. Surgeons operated on him twice, but he died the next day.




Hell, seems to me the .40 JHP didn't work nearly well enough.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:32:39 PM EDT
Cry me a river Mexico. I could care less what the Border Patrol agent shot the illegal with. The agent was protecting himself in self defense.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:39:36 PM EDT
1) Hollowpoints are NOT the same thing as dum-dums.

2) Why does it matter if hollowpoints are forbidden in war between two nations who signed the same conventions if a NON-MILITARY law enforcement officer on American soil shoots a NON-MILITARY criminal?

3) Why is Mexico bitching about the type of ammo our border patrol uses? Their cops use the same fricking ammo.

This is just yet another attempt to get the libtards to cripple our border defenses even further while Mexico continues its invasion of the US.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:45:50 PM EDT
Typical Mexico BS!

Their illegal crossing anger me, so how about a full investigation about that instead? The Hague!? As already stated, that concerns warfare not policing your border. But if they want to declare ware, sounds good to me. Let's start mining operations along the border! The poor border agent now gets put through hell over this crap.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:49:05 PM EDT
Uhh, Fuck Mexico.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:51:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
1) Hollowpoints are NOT the same thing as dum-dums.

2) Why does it matter if hollowpoints are forbidden in war between two nations who signed the same conventions if a NON-MILITARY law enforcement officer on American soil shoots a NON-MILITARY criminal?

3) Why is Mexico bitching about the type of ammo our border patrol uses? Their cops use the same fricking ammo.

This is just yet another attempt to get the libtards to cripple our border defenses even further while Mexico continues its invasion of the US.



Exactly, I am surprised at the rhetoric that they are spewing. Considering GWB is on their side. You would think they would want to keep it quiet.

Its going to boil over and its going to be open season on Mexicans crossing the border.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 10:53:22 PM EDT
This is the second time I've seen this "dum-dum" bullshit. Last time was they were bitching about the British police using HPs to shoot that guy that ran from them into the subway after the bombings.

The thought that hollowpoint ammunition is "controversial" makes me laugh my ass off.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:51:54 AM EDT
If the Mexican government doesn't want it's citizens shot, then keep them there. Stop turning that country into such a shithole and maybe, just maybe if the standard of living were to reach what we consider poor trailer trash, they wouldn't have this problem. But that would take work and a lack of corruption wouldn't it.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:56:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DYNAMIC_ENTRY:
Uhh, Fuck Mexico.



What he said.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:56:40 AM EDT
Don't want to get shot with those old nasty hollow point bullets?

Stay in Mexico.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 10:56:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2006 11:21:46 AM EDT by R-32]
Im upset that the Mexican was able to walk back across the border...

I say we need to get our Border Patrol boys and girls back up to speed with their marksmanship...




Forgot to add....

Fuck Mexico!
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:01:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By smallmonkey:
err, my topic got automatically formated to be all in caps, I meant to post HPs (hollow points)

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N04392349



S. agent killed Mexican with "dum-dum" bullet
Wed 4 Jan 2006 7:41 PM ET

MEXICO CITY, Jan 4 (Reuters) - The U.S. Border Patrol used a "dum-dum" bullet, banned in international war but standard issue for border agents, to kill an 18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant adult illegal border-jumper whose death justified killing last week angered Mexico the corrupt Mexican government and the liberal US press.

The hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on impact, cause much more tissue damage and bleeding than standard rounds.

A Border Patrol spokesman said on Wednesday the bullet fired into Guillermo Martinez after he crossed the U.S. border near San Diego on Friday was a .40-caliber hollow-point round.

The ammunition is banned in international warfare under a century-old treaty but is standard issue for the Border Patrol and some U.S. police departments.

"The agent in question was carrying a .40-caliber Beretta ... a .40-caliber round," Nicholas Coates, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's San Diego sector, told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Coates said the bullet fired was hollow-tipped and that "all Border Patrol agents carry hollow-tipped rounds."

The ammunition is banned under the 1899 Hague Convention, which prohibits use in warfare of expanding or fragmenting bullets, generally referred to as "dum-dum" rounds after an Indian arsenal where they were introduced in the 19th century.

Mexican rights groups and witnesses Paid shills said Martinez, who had crossed into the United States illegally with three other men border jumping criminals including his brother, was shot in the chest.

He managed to walk back over the border to Mexico and was treated at Tijuana's Red Cross hospital. Surgeons operated on him twice, but he died the next day.

Mexico this week called for a formal investigation into the shooting, which came weeks after a U.S. lawmaker proposed a plan to fortify part of the U.S.-Mexico border with a high-tech wall to stop illegal immigrants.

The Border Patrol said the agent shot Martinez after the Mexican had twice hurled rocks at him. The unnamed agent has been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation.

Each year, an unknown number of Mexicans attempt to cross the deserts and rivers marking the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border in search of work in the United States.

The Border Patrol arrested almost 1.2 million undocumented immigrants making the journey last year. At least 464 died en route, many from heat exposure.




The mexican government is giving press releases saying that it was unfair to shoot someone with a working bullet.

They even have a cute name for it "dum-dum" (well that is not new, but I do not think anyone has used that word in at least 50 years)



made some editorial corrections in the interest of accuracy
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:07:12 AM EDT
Perfect !

Now we have a poster child for
"Why Mexicans shouldn't cross the border".

Posters made from the guys corpse should be put up
every 100 yards on the border.

Of course ,even if you write those words on the poster
in Spanish ,their own native language,less than 35%
will be able to read it.

That's if the INS statistics on the literacy rate of illegal
Mexican immigrants is correct.

A higher percentage of South African blacks are literate
than Mexicans.
Go ahead ..... Look it up.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:07:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Don't want to get shot with those old nasty hollow point bullets?

Stay in Mexico.




No shit. I know Mexican math works the same.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:11:15 AM EDT
Are they banned for law enforcement?

If not then is Mexico saying we are at war? If so then this makes the issues of border control a lot more urgent.

BTW: Is this the bullet that causes the wound that Joe Pesci got in Lethal Weapon 2 or 3?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:12:21 AM EDT
One down.

It's a start.

O­h yeah. Fuck Mexico with a dick big enough for a blue whale to feel.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:13:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmedAggie:
Are they banned for law enforcement?

If not then is Mexico saying we are at war? If so then this makes the issues of border control a lot more urgent.

BTW: Is this the bullet that causes the wound that Joe Pesci got in Lethal Weapon 2 or 3?



UUUGgghhhh..... That movie makes the baby Jesus cry.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:14:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
Im upset that the Mexican was able to walk back across the border...

I say we need to get out Border Patrol boys and girls back up to speed with their marksmanship...




Forgot to add....

Fuck Mexico!

Saved us some money for the healthcare
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:17:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
Im upset that the Mexican was able to walk back across the border...

I say we need to get out Border Patrol boys and girls back up to speed with their marksmanship...




Forgot to add....

Fuck Mexico!



EOTechs for their Berettas!

And Fuck Mexico...

Fuck them over and over... They are like a child still bitching about the spanking of 1848. We need to have a new spanking and put those MOTHERFUCKERS back in their place.

BUT could you imagine the Mexican illegal response IN THE US if the US went to fight militarily on the border?
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:19:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cobrasks:
Now we have a poster child for
"Why Mexicans shouldn't cross the border".

Posters made from the guys corpse should be put up
every 100 yards on the border.

Of course ,even if you write those words on the poster
in Spanish ,their own native language,less than 35%
will be able to read it.

That's if the INS statistics on the literacy rate of illegal
Mexican immigrants is correct.



No, I think its very, very true. I won't say why, but I will say I have first hand experience dealing with folks who cannot read or write (Americans and Mexis) and trust me, many of the Mexis cannot read Spanish let alone comprehend a word of English.

They do seem to understand Policia or whatever the Spansih word for police is and INS.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:21:50 AM EDT
WHO CARES WHAT MEXICO THINKS.WHEN THEY START LIVING AND OBEYING BY THE LAWS OF THE US MAYBE SOMEONE WILL GIVE A SHIT. OK MAYBE NOT.


OH YEAH FUCK MEXICO
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:25:02 AM EDT
Bah, it's a moot point anyways. The US never signed into the Hague Convention. Come to think of it, I'd be suprised if Mexico did either..
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:25:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:

Originally Posted By R-32:
Im upset that the Mexican was able to walk back across the border...

I say we need to get out Border Patrol boys and girls back up to speed with their marksmanship...




Forgot to add....

Fuck Mexico!

Saved us some money for the healthcare



Dont cost all that much to get a backhoe, and dig a ditch to throw the dead ones in....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:25:50 AM EDT

18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant



He's a flippin ILLEGAL, Im SICK of this PC BS.

One less illegal for us to support, keep up the good work
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:26:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
So does Mexico concede that there is a state of war between the US and Mexico and that Martinez was part of the Mexican invasion of the United States?


+1
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:31:27 AM EDT
I didn't know they all came here to work. I must be misinformed.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:33:25 AM EDT
I heard a story from a BP Supervisor once, of how an illegal took a pot shot at two BP Agents from 90 yards....they returned fire with M4s loaded with ball and tracers, each fired 30 rounds or so, hit him a dozen or more times.....and he still crawled back and died on the Mexican side.

That story should be more common than it is....
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 11:59:10 AM EDT
Who the hell with any info uses the term "Dum-Dum" bullets??
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:02:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mdb212:

Originally Posted By smallmonkey:
err, my topic got automatically formated to be all in caps, I meant to post HPs (hollow points)

http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=N04392349



S. agent killed Mexican with "dum-dum" bullet
Wed 4 Jan 2006 7:41 PM ET

MEXICO CITY, Jan 4 (Reuters) - The U.S. Border Patrol used a "dum-dum" bullet, banned in international war but standard issue for border agents, to kill an 18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant adult illegal border-jumper whose death justified killing last week angered Mexico the corrupt Mexican government and the liberal US press.

The hollow-point bullets, designed to expand on impact, cause much more tissue damage and bleeding than standard rounds.

A Border Patrol spokesman said on Wednesday the bullet fired into Guillermo Martinez after he crossed the U.S. border near San Diego on Friday was a .40-caliber hollow-point round.

The ammunition is banned in international warfare under a century-old treaty but is standard issue for the Border Patrol and some U.S. police departments.

"The agent in question was carrying a .40-caliber Beretta ... a .40-caliber round," Nicholas Coates, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's San Diego sector, told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Coates said the bullet fired was hollow-tipped and that "all Border Patrol agents carry hollow-tipped rounds."

The ammunition is banned under the 1899 Hague Convention, which prohibits use in warfare of expanding or fragmenting bullets, generally referred to as "dum-dum" rounds after an Indian arsenal where they were introduced in the 19th century.

Mexican rights groups and witnesses Paid shills said Martinez, who had crossed into the United States illegally with three other men border jumping criminals including his brother, was shot in the chest.

He managed to walk back over the border to Mexico and was treated at Tijuana's Red Cross hospital. Surgeons operated on him twice, but he died the next day.

Mexico this week called for a formal investigation into the shooting, which came weeks after a U.S. lawmaker proposed a plan to fortify part of the U.S.-Mexico border with a high-tech wall to stop illegal immigrants.

The Border Patrol said the agent shot Martinez after the Mexican had twice hurled rocks at him. The unnamed agent has been placed on administrative leave pending the outcome of an investigation.

Each year, an unknown number of Mexicans attempt to cross the deserts and rivers marking the 2,000-mile (3,200-km) border in search of work in the United States.

The Border Patrol arrested almost 1.2 million undocumented immigrants making the journey last year. At least 464 died en route, many from heat exposure.




The mexican government is giving press releases saying that it was unfair to shoot someone with a working bullet.

They even have a cute name for it "dum-dum" (well that is not new, but I do not think anyone has used that word in at least 50 years)



made some editorial corrections in the interest of accuracy



thanks, it makes a lot more sense now.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:03:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

18-year-old undocumented Mexican immigrant



He's a flippin ILLEGAL, Im SICK of this PC BS.

One less illegal for us to support, keep up the good work



That would be like someone having an "undocumented" machine gun, or making "undocumented" income . . .
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:04:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
Who the hell with any info uses the term "Dum-Dum" bullets??



Not that they have any info, but both recent times I've seen it mentioned it has been British sources, maybe even Reuters both times.
Link Posted: 2/14/2006 12:20:46 PM EDT
another piece of straw on the camel's back...
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