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Posted: 2/13/2006 1:49:40 PM EDT
I was visiting a friend and we were talking guns he showed me his new bushy and was talking about the new RRA pistols.

Another one of our friends who probably needs a tin foil kevlar was saying that ar rifles and pistols dont mix because it would be too easy to convert the rifle to a SBR, using the pistol upper.

I thought it was BS because you have to have more than Evil thoughts to commit a crime.

I could understand if you had just a AR rifle with a lone pistol upper but this is different.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 1:51:07 PM EDT
That is BS, but you can't have ANY auto parts like sear, auto hammer, disconnector, and trigger.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 1:52:00 PM EDT
You may not be able to have 2 uppers for the pistol, but even that would be a dubious ATF interpretation of the law.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 1:57:59 PM EDT
BS, if that were true, then you couldn't even possess a vertical forward grip if you had a pistol because you could turn it into an AOW in seconds.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:19:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 2:19:36 PM EDT by DK-Prof]
It all seems somewhat grey and ambiguous, so YMMV.

Obviously, you can own an AR pistol and an AR rifle at the same time - I don't see why that causes a problem. The fact that you could THEORETICALLY take both apart and swap the uppers to create an SBR is no different from the fact that you could just as theoretically take a hacksaw to your shotgun and create an SBR. Both are relatively easy to do, but there is no crime until it is actually done.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with an extra pistol upper, then some people might start to worry - although I don't think I would personally. I have a registered SBR, and I feel like I can buy a 11.5" upper in addition to my current 10.5" upper, and not worry about it.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with three pistol uppers, and just happen to have two extra complete rifle lowers lying around, then you probably want to be wary of inviting numerous BATFE agents over for dinner and showing off your collection of uppers and lowers.

I personally don't think that the BATFE is actively looking for people to bust, unless they are assmbling a pistol upper on an unregistered rifle lower, and taking it to the shooting range, or something like that. However, IF you had several extra pistol uppers and several unregistered complete rifle lowers lying around in your house - and you got raided for your post-growing operation in the basement, then I have no doubt that the BATFE would charge you with something.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:21:35 PM EDT
Using your tin foil buddy's logic, you couldn't own a Thompson Contender rifle and pistol either because you can make the rifle into a SBR by using a pistol barrel.
Your friend is full of shit.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:24:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 2:25:14 PM EDT by www-glock19-com]
as I understand it if you have a legal use for the part IE pistol , SBR or machine gun you can have it
if you do not have a pistol, SBR or MG to put it on then you could have a problem with possesive construction , but yes it is a grey area and have a couple buddies with M16s that got rid of their semis so they could have extra parts around and not have any problems or worries
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 2:30:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:27:48 PM EDT
Interesting... but is the logic different for machine gun parts? What if someone had:

A semi AR, and a couple of M16 parts? I've heard that some people like to use M16 carriers because the extra weight improves the timing a bit.

A semi AR and a full set of M16 parts, but no way to drill a correct hole for the auto sear?

A legal M16 with some spare parts, and a semi AR?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:30:51 PM EDT
I have a question on an AR pistol.... I know it would be illegal to add a stock to it, but how hard would it be to add a 6-position stock? Just curious. Hell I dont even own a regualr AR.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:38:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 4:39:56 PM EDT by the_great_snag]

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
I have a question on an AR pistol.... I know it would be illegal to add a stock to it, but how hard would it be to add a 6-position stock? Just curious. Hell I dont even own a regualr AR.



Loosen the nut on the front of the buffer tube behind the lower and unscrew the buffer tube slowly while trapping the buffer detent and spring,

Then screw in the telescoping stock until you can just slip in the buffer detent and spring, then screw it in until the buffer detent is captured and tighten the nut.

I assumed you KNEW to remove the actual buffer first. It's not brain surgery by any means...

ETA: Oh crap! I forgot to tell you to make sure not to lose the takedown detent and spring which are captured by the little plate between the buffer nut and the lower!

Still pretty f-ing easy task, especially with a proper stock wrench.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:45:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
I have a question on an AR pistol.... I know it would be illegal to add a stock to it, but how hard would it be to add a 6-position stock? Just curious. Hell I dont even own a regualr AR.



Loosen the nut on the front of the buffer tube behind the lower and unscrew the buffer tube slowly while trapping the buffer detent and spring,

Then screw in the telescoping stock until you can just slip in the buffer detent and spring, then screw it in until the buffer detent is captured and tighten the nut.

I assumed you KNEW to remove the actual buffer first. It's not brain surgery by any means...

ETA: Oh crap! I forgot to tell you to make sure not to lose the takedown detent and spring which are captured by the little plate between the buffer nut and the lower!

Still pretty f-ing easy task, especially with a proper stock wrench.




No I didnt know how to take the buffer tube off... When I did have an AR I didnt have it very lonog to play with it. So adding a stock makes it an SBR right with needs the lovely tax?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:48:23 PM EDT
When I bought my last Stag upper the guy at the gun shop asked me what I planned on building so he could mark on the form if it was a rifle or a pistol. I asked him, and he said I had to"declare" it at time of purchase. I don't know if it was BS or what, but that is how it went down.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 4:50:57 PM EDT
What was the logic behind regulating SBRs anyway? Why are they considered to be evil?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:00:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
What was the logic behind regulating SBRs anyway? Why are they considered to be evil?



The original draft of the NFA did not include SBRs.

But it was overhauled and 18" barreled rifles were added and pistolas were removed totally.

In 1960 the defenition was changed to a 16" minimum
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:04:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
It all seems somewhat grey and ambiguous, so YMMV.

Obviously, you can own an AR pistol and an AR rifle at the same time - I don't see why that causes a problem. The fact that you could THEORETICALLY take both apart and swap the uppers to create an SBR is no different from the fact that you could just as theoretically take a hacksaw to your shotgun and create an SBR. Both are relatively easy to do, but there is no crime until it is actually done.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with an extra pistol upper, then some people might start to worry - although I don't think I would personally. I have a registered SBR, and I feel like I can buy a 11.5" upper in addition to my current 10.5" upper, and not worry about it.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with three pistol uppers, and just happen to have two extra complete rifle lowers lying around, then you probably want to be wary of inviting numerous BATFE agents over for dinner and showing off your collection of uppers and lowers.

I personally don't think that the BATFE is actively looking for people to bust, unless they are assmbling a pistol upper on an unregistered rifle lower, and taking it to the shooting range, or something like that. However, IF you had several extra pistol uppers and several unregistered complete rifle lowers lying around in your house - and you got raided for your post-growing operation in the basement, then I have no doubt that the BATFE would charge you with something.



How do you turn a shotgun into a rifle with a hacksaw?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:05:24 PM EDT
OK, I have to many ideas going through my head right now.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:10:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
It all seems somewhat grey and ambiguous, so YMMV.

Obviously, you can own an AR pistol and an AR rifle at the same time - I don't see why that causes a problem. The fact that you could THEORETICALLY take both apart and swap the uppers to create an SBR is no different from the fact that you could just as theoretically take a hacksaw to your shotgun and create an SBR. Both are relatively easy to do, but there is no crime until it is actually done.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with an extra pistol upper, then some people might start to worry - although I don't think I would personally. I have a registered SBR, and I feel like I can buy a 11.5" upper in addition to my current 10.5" upper, and not worry about it.

If you own an AR rifle, and an AR pistol with three pistol uppers, and just happen to have two extra complete rifle lowers lying around, then you probably want to be wary of inviting numerous BATFE agents over for dinner and showing off your collection of uppers and lowers.

I personally don't think that the BATFE is actively looking for people to bust, unless they are assmbling a pistol upper on an unregistered rifle lower, and taking it to the shooting range, or something like that. However, IF you had several extra pistol uppers and several unregistered complete rifle lowers lying around in your house - and you got raided for your post-growing operation in the basement, then I have no doubt that the BATFE would charge you with something.



How do you turn a shotgun into a rifle with a hacksaw?



DOH!!!


You know what I meant, you nitpicky heartless bastard!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:12:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:

Originally Posted By FieroLoki:
I have a question on an AR pistol.... I know it would be illegal to add a stock to it, but how hard would it be to add a 6-position stock? Just curious. Hell I dont even own a regualr AR.



Loosen the nut on the front of the buffer tube behind the lower and unscrew the buffer tube slowly while trapping the buffer detent and spring,

Then screw in the telescoping stock until you can just slip in the buffer detent and spring, then screw it in until the buffer detent is captured and tighten the nut.

I assumed you KNEW to remove the actual buffer first. It's not brain surgery by any means...

ETA: Oh crap! I forgot to tell you to make sure not to lose the takedown detent and spring which are captured by the little plate between the buffer nut and the lower!

Still pretty f-ing easy task, especially with a proper stock wrench.




No I didnt know how to take the buffer tube off... When I did have an AR I didnt have it very lonog to play with it. So adding a stock makes it an SBR right with needs the lovely tax?



Yeah the process is simple, but some stocks or buffers can be a bitch to remove, especially if the original builder was a loc-tite fan.

Bear in mind that A2 type buttstocks are completely different. With those you simply thread the buffer tube all the way down to the flange while depressing the buffer detent and spring. The stock itself then retains the takedown pin detent and spring. Then if it's an A2, you add the buffer tube spacer (slide it down the hole in the stock) and screw the top butt screw into the rear of the buffer tube to hold everything together. A nubbin on the front of the stock engages a recess in the lower to stop it from rotating.

An A1 stock is shorter and does not require the spacer behind the buffer tube. I can't recall if the screw used is the same, but I don't believe it is. Never had call to have an A1 stock, so I don't know.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:16:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WAMJR:
When I bought my last Stag upper the guy at the gun shop asked me what I planned on building so he could mark on the form if it was a rifle or a pistol. I asked him, and he said I had to"declare" it at time of purchase. I don't know if it was BS or what, but that is how it went down.



I'm not sure on this either, so I just register all my lowers as pistols just to be safe. You can still build them into rifles if you want, but there is no hassle later if you remove the buttstock and put a shorty upper on it.

I believe SBR's are considered EVIL because they are "concealable". Typical moronic government thinking. You can buy a handgun in virtually any caliber with a simple background check, yet need a $200 stamp to buy a short barreled .22...

And before you flamers and troll baiters come out, know that I think all gun control laws are BS and unconstitutional as hell.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:31:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:

How do you turn a shotgun into a rifle with a hacksaw?



Pull the blade thru the bore. duh!
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:53:45 PM EDT
AR pistol not legal in Hawaii unless its a single shot.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:07:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mace:
Interesting... but is the logic different for machine gun parts? What if someone had:

A semi AR, and a couple of M16 parts? I've heard that some people like to use M16 carriers because the extra weight improves the timing a bit.

A semi AR and a full set of M16 parts, but no way to drill a correct hole for the auto sear?

A legal M16 with some spare parts, and a semi AR?




No the logic is not different. If you had a legal reason for the M16 parts (i.e you have a registered M16) then having an AR15 and auto parts are not contructive intent.
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