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Posted: 2/13/2006 5:32:48 AM EDT
There was a post many months back about handguns versus rifles for home defense. After reading the 20+ pages it went, I agreed that a rifle would be the best weapon to use for home defense.

Fast forward: So the last couple of weekends I have done a walk through in my house using a few different weapons. First was a Bushy M4 and let me tell you, it is just too damn big for tight quarters, even with the stock all the way in. So I switched to the HK UMP, still too big and clumsy, even with the stock folded. That UMP is a hell of a weapon, simple, accurate and deadly with 33 rounds of .45 -but damn it is a big carbine!! Anywho, the most acceptable rifle/carbine that I own was the Beretta Storm, but even she was a bit cumbersome. So I switched over to the Glock 19 and it just felt right for my home defense needs.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I was stashed in my bedroom, with wife and kiddies, then that M4 would be trained on the door till help/police arrived. But there are times/scenarios when a safe room isn't an option and you must go hunting.

Does anyone else find that even though they agree a rifle is the best choice on paper, in reality, a handgun just allows so much more movement?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:34:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 5:40:00 AM EDT by JBowles]
You must have a cramped house or are handling your rifle incorrectly, I never noticed any problem wiht my M4


EDIT Just for the record I really have no idea what im talking about, but I have never had a promblem menuvering my M4 throughout the house.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:41:52 AM EDT
Well Sandman, with all due respect, we could base our opinions on "feelings", or we could get some professional training and base them on facts.

If properly trained, a person will not find a short rifle to be a negative in home defense.

I once was a "pistol only" guy. Then I went to Thunder Ranch and took the Urban Rifle course. I now know better.

There is no reason to use a less effective and less powerful weapon if you have a choice.

As Clint Smith says, "The only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle that you should have never laid down."

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:44:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:44:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:
You must have a cramped house or are handling your rifle incorrectly, I never noticed any problem wiht my M4


EDIT Just for the record I really have no idea what im talking about, but I have never had a promblem menuvering my M4 throughout the house.




Got to agree, never had issue with the 16in barreled gun and don't have any with the 11.5in barreled gun either.

To each his own though, you have to use what works best for you.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:46:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 5:48:05 AM EDT by Grunteled]
In "check out the house" type situations I'll generally take the handgun. I'm just more comfortable with it in that situation. If I am fairly certain someone is in the house, it's the rifle and I defend the family's position. I wouldn't feel afraid to move with the rifle if I had to though.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:47:40 AM EDT
I still say pistol ,for legal reasons.

Sometimes ,even if it's automatically declared self defense,
the cops can take your weapon for a period of time.

I'd rather they took my 9mm pistol(Ihave more ) than
one of my prized rifles I like to shoot once a week.

I don't have an M4 or shorty carbine however,so my rifles would
not be as easily used in close quarters as yours.

If I had more than one M4 ,I would probably use one of them
instead.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:49:53 AM EDT
Try a pistol grip shotty.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:50:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 5:53:01 AM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:52:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Old_Painless, sometime if you find yourself in the Kansas City area you can come out to the Nukem Compound (tm) and show us how its done with a carbine. I'll buy ya steak dinner!



How can I pass up a deal like that?

You're on!

(I might even bring up one of my AKs and let you refinish it for me. )
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 5:53:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 5:56:46 AM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:05:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
There was a post many months back about handguns versus rifles for home defense. After reading the 20+ pages it went, I agreed that a rifle would be the best weapon to use for home defense.

Fast forward: So the last couple of weekends I have done a walk through in my house using a few different weapons. First was a Bushy M4 and let me tell you, it is just too damn big for tight quarters, even with the stock all the way in. So I switched to the HK UMP, still too big and clumsy, even with the stock folded. That UMP is a hell of a weapon, simple, accurate and deadly with 33 rounds of .45 -but damn it is a big carbine!! Anywho, the most acceptable rifle/carbine that I own was the Beretta Storm, but even she was a bit cumbersome. So I switched over to the Glock 19 and it just felt right for my home defense needs.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I was stashed in my bedroom, with wife and kiddies, then that M4 would be trained on the door till help/police arrived. But there are times/scenarios when a safe room isn't an option and you must go hunting.

Does anyone else find that even though they agree a rifle is the best choice on paper, in reality, a handgun just allows so much more movement?



As with anything, ,it depends on your own circumstances. I would just ask this, however: How are you carrying the rifle? Put the buttstock OVER your shoulder, aiming the rifle at the floor (not really aiming, but just holding it in that general direction). To engage a target, just pull the buttstock off the the top of the shoulder and press it into the front (normal firing position), the muzzle should automatically present to the target. Just a little practice make s it smooth. I'm just guessing, but it sounds like you may be getting interference from a doorway or corner, which certainly will happen in the usual carrying positions, especially the "port arms" position many think appropriate. I've tried a number of positions, not just in the house but on my boat, which has a small companionway and hatch compared to house openings. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:06:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By cobrasks:
I still say pistol ,for legal reasons.

Sometimes ,even if it's automatically declared self defense,
the cops can take your weapon for a period of time.

I'd rather they took my 9mm pistol(Ihave more ) than
one of my prized rifles I like to shoot once a week.

.



Yeah why risk losing a gun you shoot at the range once a week when you can risk losing your life by using a less effective firearm?

edit-I see this posted frequently and it leaves me doing this---> Everytime I see it, God forbid I get into an encounter where I have to use lethal force I'm going to do whatever I can to make sure I come out on top, hell if I just got out every penny I had in the world in gold coins in a bag I'd beat the sob to death with that if it was the most effective weapon I had at hand.



EXACTLY!!! You have to survive to get to court in the first place. Now I do understand the concept of why survive the street only to die in prison, bu one thing at a time. Just make sure the shoot is good, and that will help a lot with the second.

As to using one or the other because of ability, I have no problems with my M4. I do have some experience/training with a 20 inch M16 though, and it feels natural to me almost.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:13:13 AM EDT

Well Sandman, with all due respect, we could base our opinions on "feelings", or we could get some professional training and base them on facts.

If properly trained, a person will not find a short rifle to be a negative in home defense.



I agree OP. And to be honest, you're the guy who convinced me that a rifle would be better. Maybe my problem is my house setup. If I hear a noise, I have to walk out of my bedroom. As I come out of my bedroom, I am at the end of the hallway with 4 doors all around me. 2 on one side of the hallway and 2 on the other. I have to walk pass these bedrooms/bathroom to get to the rest of the house. There is no way I can "look" into one room without being vulnerable to the one on the opposite side. It was a real effort to turn with the rifle in that small hallway, whereas with the handgun...welll.....it was much easier to turn to cover.

Now my setup is ideal to stay put in my bedroom, but like I said, that's not always possible.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:20:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 6:21:21 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
I agree that for me a handgun is easier to maneuver in the house. I currently rely on my 1911 for this. I am however taking my first civilian rifle course in April and hope to change this.

I'm hoping to learn alot from the course and will try to keep an open mind.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:23:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Well Sandman, with all due respect, we could base our opinions on "feelings", or we could get some professional training and base them on facts.







Ouch



Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:25:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Well Sandman, with all due respect, we could base our opinions on "feelings", or we could get some professional training and base them on facts.

If properly trained, a person will not find a short rifle to be a negative in home defense.



I agree OP. And to be honest, you're the guy who convinced me that a rifle would be better. Maybe my problem is my house setup. If I hear a noise, I have to walk out of my bedroom. As I come out of my bedroom, I am at the end of the hallway with 4 doors all around me. 2 on one side of the hallway and 2 on the other. I have to walk pass these bedrooms/bathroom to get to the rest of the house. There is no way I can "look" into one room without being vulnerable to the one on the opposite side. It was a real effort to turn with the rifle in that small hallway, whereas with the handgun...welll.....it was much easier to turn to cover.

Now my setup is ideal to stay put in my bedroom, but like I said, that's not always possible.



Position "Sul" is good for turning/pivoting in tight areas like that with a carbine.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:26:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cobrasks:
I still say pistol ,for legal reasons.

Sometimes ,even if it's automatically declared self defense,
the cops can take your weapon for a period of time.

I'd rather they took my 9mm pistol(Ihave more ) than
one of my prized rifles I like to shoot once a week.

I don't have an M4 or shorty carbine however,so my rifles would
not be as easily used in close quarters as yours.

If I had more than one M4 ,I would probably use one of them
instead.



If you shoot and kill anyone, even if it's justafiable self defense, the police will probably take all your weapons until the investigation is completed.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:30:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
Does anyone else find that even though they agree a rifle is the best choice on paper, in reality, a handgun just allows so much more movement?



No.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:34:49 AM EDT
"Rifle just not working for home defense"

Here's what you do:

1) Load it
2) Point it at the BG's
3) Fire as necessary

Works more often than not, actually.

And... as others have adroitly pointed out, a properly employed handgun extends about the same distance from your body as a rifle such as an AR-15 carbine. However, consider the leverage you gain in weapon retention with a carbine, that you lose with a handgun. Think about it.

Also, if you are finding cramped corners or "choke points" in your place... well, then adapt and improvise for cryin out loud! The only rules are you MUST protect you and yours.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:36:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nationwide:
"Rifle just not working for home defense"

Here's what you do:

1) Load it
2) Point it at the BG's
3) Fire as necessary
4) Repeat
Works more often than not, actually.

And... as others have adroitly pointed out, a properly employed handgun extends about the same distance from your body as a rifle such as an AR-15 carbine. However, consider the leverage you gain in weapon retention with a carbine, that you lose with a handgun. Think about it.

Also, if you are finding cramped corners or "choke points" in your place... well, then adapt and improvise for cryin out loud! The only rules are you MUST protect you and yours.



Fixed it
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:39:41 AM EDT
I would take a M4 over a pistol anyday, but would rather they take a Glock to the PD than my carbine. Tough toss up.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:43:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
There was a post many months back about handguns versus rifles for home defense. After reading the 20+ pages it went, I agreed that a rifle would be the best weapon to use for home defense.

Fast forward: So the last couple of weekends I have done a walk through in my house using a few different weapons. First was a Bushy M4 and let me tell you, it is just too damn big for tight quarters, even with the stock all the way in. So I switched to the HK UMP, still too big and clumsy, even with the stock folded. That UMP is a hell of a weapon, simple, accurate and deadly with 33 rounds of .45 -but damn it is a big carbine!! Anywho, the most acceptable rifle/carbine that I own was the Beretta Storm, but even she was a bit cumbersome. So I switched over to the Glock 19 and it just felt right for my home defense needs.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I was stashed in my bedroom, with wife and kiddies, then that M4 would be trained on the door till help/police arrived. But there are times/scenarios when a safe room isn't an option and you must go hunting.

Does anyone else find that even though they agree a rifle is the best choice on paper, in reality, a handgun just allows so much more movement?



I think this is more of a training issue.

Sign up for some classes.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:47:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 6:48:11 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By nf9648:
I would take a M4 over a pistol anyday, but would rather they take a Glock to the PD than my carbine. Tough toss up.



I'd rather be alive and have my SBR in the PD evidance locker then be dead with a pistol in my hand becuase the BG was wearing body armor.......
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:54:51 AM EDT
I've never taken any of the rifle/carbine courses, although I plan on it in the near future. But if you live in a small house, filled with furniture, and your rifle is pointed at the floor, and you enter a room and a BG is standing rigiht around the corner (in other words, almost nose to nose with you), how do you raise the rifle in order to engage him? Seems to me like he'd be inside the muzzle or they're be a wrestling match for the rifle.

I was taught wth the handgun to keep it right next to your hip pointing forward. That way you can easily move it forward for an aimed shot, or engage someone who's face to face with you without them being inside the muzzle or being able to easily grab the gun.

Also, if you have to walk outside to check on a noise, do you carry the rifle with you? I can easily holster the handgun and carry it with me as I move around the house, whether there's a perceived problem or not, it's always there and always ready. But I can't imagine moving around the house at night, to go to the bathroom, to the fridge or out to check on the dogs, carrying a rifle with me all the time. Or maybe you use a pistol for that and keep the rifle for real problems?

One thing I took away from the transcripts of the BTK killer interview, if it's not with you at all times you probably won't have time to get to it. BG's like that are in your house and confronting you before you know it. No time to go get the rifle, it's the handgun on your person or it's bare knuckles.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:58:16 AM EDT
Yes, I always felt like that. Whenever I try moving around the house with the M4, it feels kinda cumbersome, and hard to prevent the barrel from sticking out around corners, where someone could grab it. Yeah, the handgun sticks out about the same in a proper Weaver/Isocoles stance, but I can easily drop it down to the hip to protect it. Of course, that's for roaming around the house to check out a merely suspicious noise. If it sounds like someone is coming to get me, then it's the AR pointed at the door from across the bedroom.

Maybe I'd feel better about protecting the rifle in close quarters after taking some course, but I haven't yet. To paraphrase Mr. Rumsfeld, if there's a bump in the night, I go to the fight with the best weapons and tactics I have now, not what I wish I had, or would like to have, or someone on the internet told me I could get.

(no offense to people on the Internet who know their stuff)
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 6:59:33 AM EDT
Practice and carry both.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:01:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 7:04:04 AM EDT by gks452]
I just rack my pump shotgun a time or two. That way the bad guy gets scared and runs away. It's been proven in police studies.

We just can't have a home defense thread get to page two without someone saying this.

Personally I know it's easier to search with a handgun, but I use the rifle if I can.

ETA: Oh Crap, I posted too slow. We went a whole page without the sound of pump shotgun BS.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:02:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
I've never taken any of the rifle/carbine courses, although I plan on it in the near future. But if you live in a small house, filled with furniture, and your rifle is pointed at the floor, and you enter a room and a BG is standing rigiht around the corner (in other words, almost nose to nose with you), how do you raise the rifle in order to engage him? Seems to me like he'd be inside the muzzle or they're be a wrestling match for the rifle.

I was taught wth the handgun to keep it right next to your hip pointing forward. That way you can easily move it forward for an aimed shot, or engage someone who's face to face with you without them being inside the muzzle or being able to easily grab the gun.

Also, if you have to walk outside to check on a noise, do you carry the rifle with you? I can easily holster the handgun and carry it with me as I move around the house, whether there's a perceived problem or not, it's always there and always ready. But I can't imagine moving around the house at night, to go to the bathroom, to the fridge or out to check on the dogs, carrying a rifle with me all the time. Or maybe you use a pistol for that and keep the rifle for real problems?

One thing I took away from the transcripts of the BTK killer interview, if it's not with you at all times you probably won't have time to get to it. BG's like that are in your house and confronting you before you know it. No time to go get the rifle, it's the handgun on your person or it's bare knuckles.



Shouldn't be if you are at a high enough state of alert that you're on red and pokeing around the house.
At worst, low ready. If the BG pops up within arm's reach the drill with pistol is little different than rifle.

I've never actually taken any pistol only courses, always ones that integrated long gun and pistol.
with techniques for both and transition.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:25:08 AM EDT

I've never taken any of the rifle/carbine courses, although I plan on it in the near future. But if you live in a small house, filled with furniture, and your rifle is pointed at the floor, and you enter a room and a BG is standing rigiht around the corner (in other words, almost nose to nose with you), how do you raise the rifle in order to engage him? Seems to me like he'd be inside the muzzle or they're be a wrestling match for the rifle.

I was taught wth the handgun to keep it right next to your hip pointing forward. That way you can easily move it forward for an aimed shot, or engage someone who's face to face with you without them being inside the muzzle or being able to easily grab the gun.



+ F'in 1
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:34:40 AM EDT
How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun? Unless of course we are taking about extremely tight quarters such as house crawl space or attic, then a handgun would be appropriate. Otherwise it is merely a secondary weapon. Tactics are in place for face to face incounters. The muzzle strike quickly comes to mind.

If your not comfortable using a carbine in tight quarters, I suggest you seek training.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:35:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
There was a post many months back about handguns versus rifles for home defense. After reading the 20+ pages it went, I agreed that a rifle would be the best weapon to use for home defense.

Fast forward: So the last couple of weekends I have done a walk through in my house using a few different weapons. First was a Bushy M4 and let me tell you, it is just too damn big for tight quarters, even with the stock all the way in. So I switched to the HK UMP, still too big and clumsy, even with the stock folded. That UMP is a hell of a weapon, simple, accurate and deadly with 33 rounds of .45 -but damn it is a big carbine!! Anywho, the most acceptable rifle/carbine that I own was the Beretta Storm, but even she was a bit cumbersome. So I switched over to the Glock 19 and it just felt right for my home defense needs.

Now, don't get me wrong, if I was stashed in my bedroom, with wife and kiddies, then that M4 would be trained on the door till help/police arrived. But there are times/scenarios when a safe room isn't an option and you must go hunting.

Does anyone else find that even though they agree a rifle is the best choice on paper, in reality, a handgun just allows so much more movement?


I'm sure it has been said by now but there are certain techniques and tactics that you use when you clear a house. You may not be using the right technique.
Now,the important thing is use what you feel comfortable with. You don't HAVE to use a rifle,carbine or shotgun to clear a house just cause that is what the "experts" say. Your the one clearing the house,not them. If the Glock feels better to you than the rifle or whatever,then use it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:36:36 AM EDT
I cover both. Handgun (wheelgun) on the nightstand, Win1300 right next to it. If it's in the room, I'd go for the exposed and closer HG, if it's anything else, I go with the 1300 and #4 Tactical. I need to get a light for the shotty, but that's about all. The rest of my toys are locked in the safe. I'm more worried about someone getting them when I'm not home...
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:38:42 AM EDT
HOW DARE YOU BESMIRCH RIFLES IN SUCH A WAY!

Don't you realize that unless you are using a rifle your are automatically dead in any lethal engagement? Don't you realize that the pistol is only to be used to club yourself with for putting down the rifle that you wish you had? If a badguy breaks into your house and all you go for the pistol then you might as well shoot yourself with it. Pistols are incapable of halting attacks. Especially 9mm pistols.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:38:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun? Unless of course we are taking about extremely tight quarters such as house crawl space or attic, then a handgun would be appropriate. Otherwise it is merely a secondary weapon. Tactics are in place for face to face incounters. The muzzle strike quickly comes to mind.

If your not comfortable using a carbine in tight quarters, I suggest you seek training.



Yup. HBAR in the sternum or upside the head hoits reeeeeal bad.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:39:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Well Sandman, with all due respect, we could base our opinions on "feelings", or we could get some professional training and base them on facts.

If properly trained, a person will not find a short rifle to be a negative in home defense.

I once was a "pistol only" guy. Then I went to Thunder Ranch and took the Urban Rifle course. I now know better.

There is no reason to use a less effective and less powerful weapon if you have a choice.

As Clint Smith says, "The only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle that you should have never laid down."




You know, we keep hearing how a rifle "doesn't work" for home defense and the like. Perhaps it is time we had a Room Clearing O' Truth to demonstrate proper handling of a carbine in tight spaces.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:41:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
I think this is more of a training issue.

Sign up for some classes.



It should be noted that not all carbine training courses will teach CQB with the carbine.

Still, there are some good ones that will, like the aforementioned course O_P talked about.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:41:55 AM EDT
If you are having problems with something as small as a UMP (just over 2' in length) there is a training issue present.

Also if you are clearing a building alone (something I dont recommend) and are attacked by someone very close to you; what is stopping you from putting an initial round or two into their legs and walking rounds up the body (if they pose a lethal force threat) or striking the suspect with the weapon or your hands (or feet), creating space, then addressing the problem further?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:42:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun? Unless of course we are taking about extremely tight quarters such as house crawl space or attic, then a handgun would be appropriate. Otherwise it is merely a secondary weapon. Tactics are in place for face to face incounters. The muzzle strike quickly comes to mind.

If your not comfortable using a carbine in tight quarters, I suggest you seek training.


Dinger beat me to it. Muzzle thumps can be used.
Also, just consider how much house clearing was done about 60 years ago with 10 pound 8-shot wonders of steel and wood with a straight stock and en bloc clips. Somehow they got the job done. Lots of Marines and soldiers using A2s and A4s today for the same thing. Granted, it might not be the most maneuverable without modifying your technique and tactics, but it can be done.
Besides, one-man house clearing just plain sucks no matter what you're using.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:42:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:
How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun? Unless of course we are taking about extremely tight quarters such as house crawl space or attic, then a handgun would be appropriate. Otherwise it is merely a secondary weapon. Tactics are in place for face to face incounters. The muzzle strike quickly comes to mind.

If your not comfortable using a carbine in tight quarters, I suggest you seek training.



Again, in fairness, most of them have access to shorter OAL weapons than most of us.

Nevertheless, I guarantee about 95% of the places you will find anywhere can be safely tackled with a carbine if someone knows what they are doing.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:43:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

As Clint Smith says, "The only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle that you should have never laid down."




I'd love to see the kind of reactions you and Clint get when you go to the supermarket, the gas station, the movies, church, the gym, the mall, the bank and the post office.

I'd also like to watch you try and eat that steak you were offered one handed.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:44:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
HOW DARE YOU BESMIRCH RIFLES IN SUCH A WAY!

Don't you realize that unless you are using a rifle your are automatically dead in any lethal engagement? Don't you realize that the pistol is only to be used to club yourself with for putting down the rifle that you wish you had? If a badguy breaks into your house and all you go for the pistol then you might as well shoot yourself with it. Pistols are incapable of halting attacks. Especially 9mm pistols.



- That is kinda funny.

However, if you are trained to the rifle well, why on earth would you ever choose to use a handgun when you could use a rifle? My handgun is for times when I can't use the rifle. CCW and such. If I have time to get my paws on it, it's the rifle that's coming with me.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:44:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2006 7:46:54 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
HOW DARE YOU BESMIRCH RIFLES IN SUCH A WAY!

Don't you realize that unless you are using a rifle your are automatically dead in any lethal engagement? Don't you realize that the pistol is only to be used to club yourself with for putting down the rifle that you wish you had? If a badguy breaks into your house and all you go for the pistol then you might as well shoot yourself with it. Pistols are incapable of halting attacks. Especially 9mm pistols.



A pistol can certainly stop an attack.

But the reason we carry pistols is because it is impractical to carry rifles.

Inside the confines of your own home, why not boost the firepower advantage significantly in your favor? Some 3rd strike looser with a .38 isn't going to have an easy time killing you in your own home when you can push 28 rifle rounds in his direction and in the direction of any of his friends in a hurry.

And any one of those 28 rounds is more likely to put him down and out of the fight than any 9mm round is.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:46:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I'd love to see the kind of reactions you and Clint get when you go to the supermarket, the gas station, the movies, church, the gym, the mall, the bank and the post office.

I'd also like to watch you try and eat that steak you were offered one handed.



Clint isn't suggesting carrying a rifle around all day every day. Clint knows that is not practical for most.

His little maxim is meant to remind the serious self defense minded individual of a fact:

Handguns are weapons of compromise.

Compromise as little as possible.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:46:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cobrasks:
I still say pistol ,for legal reasons.

Sometimes ,even if it's automatically declared self defense,
the cops can take your weapon for a period of time.

I'd rather they took my 9mm pistol(Ihave more ) than
one of my prized rifles I like to shoot once a week.



GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!

If you are worried about the defense of your life and home interfering with your range plans, maybe it's time to reevaluate your priorities.
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:48:08 AM EDT
If you think your M4 might not hug close enough to you're body and it might be grabbed
by the badguy as you are making a corner mount your bayonet on it.
If you stab and shoot the bad guy would that be seen as excessive
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:48:11 AM EDT

How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun?


I see them using MP5's and other SBR's.

-Mike
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:48:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
As Clint Smith says, "The only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle that you should have never laid down."



Yeah, I keep waiting for ol' Clint to let the rest of us know where he got that concealed carry rig for his M4.

CO
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:52:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CasualObserver:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
As Clint Smith says, "The only use for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle that you should have never laid down."



Yeah, I keep waiting for ol' Clint to let the rest of us know where he got that concealed carry rig for his M4.

CO



That is why you see him wearing those cowboy style dusters in the pics with his articles in "Guns."
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:53:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CasualObserver:
Yeah, I keep waiting for ol' Clint to let the rest of us know where he got that concealed carry rig for his M4.

CO



Well you can either listen to the people who know what they are talking about, or you can ignore them by thinking that they have no clue how the real world works and do your own thing.

Guess which one is going to help you win in a real fight?
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:55:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

How many LEO or Military Special Operations teams do take downs or CQB with a handgun?


I see them using MP5's and other SBR's.

-Mike



I see them using 14.5" M4s quite often. On occasion I see 10.5" short carbines but not real often. You think that 2" difference makes one useable and the other totally impractical?

A pistol is simply not a match for a rifle, but it is able to be brough to places a rifle can't be. There is nothing wrong in using a pistol, but because you don't feel comfortable doesn't invalidate the use of rifles indoors.
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