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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:50:01 AM EDT
I say if the residents of NO had not gone on a looting spree private companies such as Blackwater never would have been involved. But in the future will it become the norm to hire private companies to provide security for natural disasters?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:08:05 AM EDT
Nobody should be hired.



Citizens should take up legally/freely owned arms and defend themselves, their family, and their property. The government's only involvement should be to issue them extra ammunition.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:12:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Nobody should be hired.



Citizens should take up legally/freely owned arms and defend themselves, their family, and their property. The government's only involvement should be to issue them extra ammunition.



ok, I agree with you, but that wasn't the question.
A precident was likely started, expect more private security coming to a natual (or otherwise) disaster near you soon.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:17:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
YOU can't trusted with a gun. ONLY LE can be. haven't you learned anything?



shit, my Fotay-Fu is weak
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:19:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:
ok, I agree with you, but that wasn't the question.



ok, I don't care. I gave you the correct answer.


A precident was likely started, expect more private security coming to a natual (or otherwise) disaster near you soon.



Anyone who would side with the enemy is also an enemy.
I hope these security guards will choose their sides/battles carefully.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:19:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:20:49 AM EDT by TodaysTomSawyer]
IMO, the biggest problem was (and I may be wrong) a complete lack of NOPD response to the situation. Now, that said, I am sure some good officers there did their best, but a lot bugged out and others joined with lootius.

With that situation and some posse commitatus thrown in, I can see how private security would be an alternative to help restore order.

Not saying I agree with it, just that I see how it could happen.

ETA - to answer the question, yes, I believe a precendent has been set.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:27:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I say if the residents of NO had not gone on a looting spree private companies such as Blackwater never would have been involved. But in the future will it become the norm to hire private companies to provide security for natural disasters?



Lets say I have a few million in my pocket.
Who says I can't hire "contractors" to protect me or my interests?
Am I setting a precedent by doing so?

I suppose I just don't see what was done here to provoke your question.

You can't assign military personnel to a bank for guard duty... thats not their job. Trained security personnel called out, I mean "hired", to guard over specific areas just makes more sense in this type of scenario. Same with guarding corporate interests in Iraq, in my estimation.

The SAD part is that we need such contractors on our own soil, because our citizens don't have the balls to put down savages anymore.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:28:36 AM EDT
The Posse Act did not apply to certain groups of soldiers there, we were under orders from the Governor NOT the federal government, therefore we can enforce civil law.

Read up on it, PCA only applies to ACTIVE DUTY troops and FEDERALIZED National Guard, if you are under orders of the Governor of your state then you can be used to suppress insurrections, enforce civil laws, and restore order. Disaster response is one such situation in which troops can be authorized to enforce the law in the absence of civil authorities.

BTDT

I think that the precedent has been set though, it looks a lot less menacing to have private security officers there than armed formations of troops patrolling the streets.
BTW the 505 PIR, 82ABN looked badass marching through the water with no kevlar, no vests, just rifles, LBE and wearing their berets.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:30:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:
IMO, the biggest problem was (and I may be wrong) a complete lack of NOPD response to the situation.



NOPD !!!

New Orleans Police Department?

uh uh, its NO PD

No Police Department
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:31:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:
IMO, the biggest problem was (and I may be wrong) a complete lack of NOPD response to the situation. Now, that said, I am sure some good officers there did their best, but a lot bugged out and others joined with lootius.



the NOPD was with a few notable exceptions a truely F'ed up organization. I was more nervous dealing with them than I was with Lootius. There where incidents. When we worked with NOPD one of us kept an eye on him until we knew that he was ok.
the security folks I dealt with where all right, some a bit cocky, but all in all proffesional.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:34:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:36:39 AM EDT by TodaysTomSawyer]

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
The Posse Act did not apply to certain groups of soldiers there, we were under orders from the Governor NOT the federal government, therefore we can enforce civil law.

Read up on it, PCA only applies to ACTIVE DUTY troops and FEDERALIZED National Guard, if you are under orders of the Governor of your state then you can be used to suppress insurrections, enforce civil laws, and restore order. Disaster response is one such situation in which troops can be authorized to enforce the law in the absence of civil authorities.



Thanks for the clarification. So the troops we saw in NO were from the LA Guard? The federalization issue is semantics in that the 82nd crossed several states to get there. Crossing out of the state your guard unit is in, to me, makes it federal. If the .gov sees anything crossing states as under federal control (under the commerce clause), this is too. Can't have it both ways.

Not flaming, just my observation - thanks for a job well done BTW.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:35:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:

Originally Posted By TodaysTomSawyer:
IMO, the biggest problem was (and I may be wrong) a complete lack of NOPD response to the situation. Now, that said, I am sure some good officers there did their best, but a lot bugged out and others joined with lootius.



the NOPD was with a few notable exceptions a truely F'ed up organization. I was more nervous dealing with them than I was with Lootius. There where incidents. When we worked with NOPD one of us kept an eye on him until we knew that he was ok.
the security folks I dealt with where all right, some a bit cocky, but all in all proffesional.



The NOPD has always been a threat to civilians. I don't expect it will change.

And you say, security contractors look less menacing?
Yeah, I mean, for fuck sake, we would'nt want to INTIMIDATE the savages!!


Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:38:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
The Posse Act did not apply to certain groups of soldiers there, we were under orders from the Governor NOT the federal government, therefore we can enforce civil law.

Read up on it, PCA only applies to ACTIVE DUTY troops and FEDERALIZED National Guard, if you are under orders of the Governor of your state then you can be used to suppress insurrections, enforce civil laws, and restore order. Disaster response is one such situation in which troops can be authorized to enforce the law in the absence of civil authority.



we were under LA state control, as law enforcement officers. never put under federal control in an official way.
there is apparently some sort of agreement between the states to share National Guard resources.
thankfully we got paid by Oregon, and made a better paycheck.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:38:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
YOU can't trusted with a gun. ONLY LE can be. haven't you learned anything?



shit, my Fotay-Fu is weak

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:38:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Nobody should be hired.



Citizens should take up legally/freely owned arms and defend themselves, their family, and their property. The government's only involvement should be to issue them extra ammunition.



Uh, the private contractors were hired to protect the crews working to restore utilities and such, not citizens in their homes.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:39:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:
thankfully we got paid by Oregon, and made a better paycheck.



LOL

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I understand it now.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:42:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Nobody should be hired.



Citizens should take up legally/freely owned arms and defend themselves, their family, and their property. The government's only involvement should be to issue them extra ammunition.



Uh, the private contractors were hired to protect the crews working to restore utilities and such, not citizens in their homes.



Captain Obvious, this is clear.
Are you telling me civilians are uncapable of defending their city from a mob of brainless drug addicted savages?

God help you when the Zombies show up
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:43:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:44:18 AM EDT by Zakk_Wylde_470]

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Nobody should be hired.



Citizens should take up legally/freely owned arms and defend themselves, their family, and their property. The government's only involvement should be to issue them extra ammunition.



Uh, the private contractors were hired to protect the crews working to restore utilities and such, not citizens in their homes.



Captain Obvious, this is clear.
Are you telling me civilians are uncapable of defending their city from a mob of brainless drug addicted savages?

God help you when the Zombies show up



I think it's quite apparant that they were totally incapable of defending their city.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:43:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Originally Posted By midwinter:
ok, I agree with you, but that wasn't the question.



ok, I don't care. I gave you the correct answer.


A precident was likely started, expect more private security coming to a natual (or otherwise) disaster near you soon.



Anyone who would side with the enemy is also an enemy.
I hope these security guards will choose their sides/battles carefully.



Which "enemies" would those be?

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:45:01 AM EDT
Many business had no choice but to hire security firms.

Let's see... you had:

Police prying burglar bars and security doors off businesses that were left secured by their owners... Police said they were "looking for bodies".

Police disarming citizens who were NOT rioting, who were protecting their own property, while at the same time allowing looters free reign, and even engaging in looting themselves.

The POLICE, NOPD, CHP's, OK National Guard, and others were engaged in activities that encouraged looting and rioting.

I hope there will be passage of laws that will bring serious jail time to police who infringe on civil rights "under color of law".

It was a shameful time for law enforcement.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 8:48:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2006 8:50:37 AM EDT by Pointman_M4A1]
As was stated above, we were under the control of our Governor, and "loaned" to the La Governor. Got paid by the State of Texas.

The 82nd was there in a limited role, they did "presence" patrols and humanitarian assistance but really were just there for show, "we are fresh from a combat tour and will kick your ass" type of image.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:08:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:

Originally Posted By midwinter:
ok, I agree with you, but that wasn't the question.



ok, I don't care. I gave you the correct answer.


A precident was likely started, expect more private security coming to a natual (or otherwise) disaster near you soon.



Anyone who would side with the enemy is also an enemy.
I hope these security guards will choose their sides/battles carefully.



Which "enemies" would those be?




Yes, who is the enemy?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 9:18:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Many business had no choice but to hire security firms.

Let's see... you had:

Police prying burglar bars and security doors off businesses that were left secured by their owners... Police said they were "looking for bodies".

Police disarming citizens who were NOT rioting, who were protecting their own property, while at the same time allowing looters free reign, and even engaging in looting themselves.

The POLICE, NOPD, CHP's, OK National Guard, and others were engaged in activities that encouraged looting and rioting.

I hope there will be passage of laws that will bring serious jail time to police who infringe on civil rights "under color of law".

It was a shameful time for law enforcement.




Sound like some enemies right there.

Anyone found to be on the wrong side of law and order has two options, they can surrender, or they can be put down. In a disaster, we don't have time to deal with savages, two choices and they have about two seconds to decide.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:37:29 AM EDT
But to think... all those CHP's and OK Nat Guard guys could have been taking on looters instead of beating up old ladies. They could have actually done some good.

Instead they were on a mission to disarm the good guys.

Screw em.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 11:13:08 PM EDT
Companies hire private security firms all the time. The local mall ninja is a low-speed version of such, and the situation is no different. He's generally all you need for that enviroment. Go to a higher-risk enviroment and you need higher speed. The inability of local authorities to control the situation created a market.

When there is a market, someone will step in and fill that market.

This is not a new phenomena is unique to today, Pinkertons was hired to protect the President in the 1800's. The classic PSD mission.

Private security has been around forever and doing really the same job as they always have. There's always someone who will pay someone else to "take out the garbage", or at least keep watch over their stuff.

When the time comes that terroists start actively blowing shit up here in the USA with the frequency that they do in the rest of the world, then there will probably be more of a market.

When there is a market, someone will step in to fill that market.

Link Posted: 2/13/2006 3:47:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2006 7:23:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Nobody should be hired.




I can see companies wanting to protect their assetts and not have a large securit staff on pay roll hiring more people in future tragedys.

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