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Posted: 2/11/2006 7:04:34 PM EDT
Would it be legal to instal a pistol grip and 12" barrel?

Thanks
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:05:45 PM EDT
Once a rifle, can't make it a handgun without SBR'ing it

Once a pistol, you can make it a rifle. Just can't go back.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:06:42 PM EDT
So once converted to a rifle, it stays that way?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:13:30 PM EDT
No. As I understand it you can convert a pistol to a rifle to a pistol as often as you like. But you can not convert a rifle to a pistol without SBR registration. As in, you can convert a Contender pistol to a Contender carbine and back at anytime but not the other way around.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:14:31 PM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:15:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 7:32:38 PM EDT by Cypher214]
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect.

I believe there is something in the law that specifies single shots (probably not all single shots, see below) as being exempt and I believe it actually mentions the Encore/Contender by style or name.

You can change from pistol to rifle and back or from rifle to pistol and back as much as you want with the Encore.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:17:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
There is something in the law that specifies single shots as being exempt and I believe it actually mentions the Encore/Contender by style or name.

Never heard of that one. You have a reference?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:22:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
There is something in the law that specifies single shots as being exempt and I believe it actually mentions the Encore/Contender by style or name.

Never heard of that one. You have a reference?



+1
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:24:18 PM EDT
This was posted on a hunting board I sometimes visit.

Don't want folks in jail.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:26:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
Once a rifle, can't make it a handgun without SBR'ing it

Once a pistol, you can make it a rifle. Just can't go back.




That's actually not true. T/C went though a big mess with the ATF over this and the outcome was that all T/C recievers are classed as pistol recievers, no matter what config you bought them in. So even if you bought a T/C Encore Muzzle Loader, you can legally convert it to a pistol, because that it how the ATF views them.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:30:05 PM EDT

I've been reading some about this on a couple of boards as well. It appears that T/C claims it is legal due to a ruling regarding the Contender a few years ago and the BATF says it's absolutely illegal. I'd not want to test the waters on that one. Just buy one that's registered as a pistol and be sure you're legal.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:31:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
Once a rifle, can't make it a handgun without SBR'ing it

Once a pistol, you can make it a rifle. Just can't go back.




That's actually not true. T/C went though a big mess with the ATF over this and the outcome was that all T/C recievers are classed as pistol recievers, no matter what config you bought them in. So even if you bought a T/C Encore Muzzle Loader, you can legally convert it to a pistol, because that it how the ATF views them.



I would like to see this in writing.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:31:59 PM EDT
Dang.

No clear answer.

Well until then I will post it's a no-go.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:32:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
Once a rifle, can't make it a handgun without SBR'ing it

Once a pistol, you can make it a rifle. Just can't go back.




That's actually not true. T/C went though a big mess with the ATF over this and the outcome was that all T/C recievers are classed as pistol recievers, no matter what config you bought them in. So even if you bought a T/C Encore Muzzle Loader, you can legally convert it to a pistol, because that it how the ATF views them.



Something like that is what I remember reading.

So it may not be all single shots, but I KNOW that the Encore is ok.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:33:07 PM EDT
Look up Thompson Center vs. US. I believe that case covers this very issue.

You'll probably get better answers in the arfkom Legal Forum too.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:33:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:36:37 PM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:38:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Plain and simple handguns, may goto rifles, and back to handguns willy nilly.

Rifles can not become pistols only short rifles in pistol configuration.

So it totally depends upon how your gun started out. Pistol or Rifle.



And there you have it.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:45:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_in_Seattle:

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Plain and simple handguns, may goto rifles, and back to handguns willy nilly.

Rifles can not become pistols only short rifles in pistol configuration.

So it totally depends upon how your gun started out. Pistol or Rifle.



And there you have it.




Except that he's completely wrong when we are talking about T/C's.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:47:06 PM EDT
YUP .
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:47:13 PM EDT
I don't worry about it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:49:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 7:55:23 PM EDT by KBaker]
Thompson/Center went to court over that one. Give me a few minutes and I'll pull up the pertinent information, but yes, you can take a rifle Encore and make it a pistol, & vice-versa. Just don't let a JBT see you with a pistol barrel on the frame with a rifle stock - that's an SBR. Rifle barrel on a frame with a pistol stock? A-OK.

Here we go, from this site:

In the Supreme court case of U.S. v. Thompson/Center Arms
Co., 504 U.S. 505 (1992) ATF said a set consisting of a receiver,
a 16"+ barrel, a pistol grip stock, a shoulder stock, and a barrel
less than 16 inches long was a short barreled rifle. The idea of
the kit was that you needed only one receiver, and you could have
both a rifle and pistol in one gun. While making a pistol out of a
rifle is making a short rifle, ATF has approved of converting a
pistol into a rifle, and then converting it back into a pistol,
without "making" a short barreled rifle when it is converted back
into a pistol; that was not an issue. See, for example Revenue
Rulings 59-340, 59-341 and 61-203. T/C made one set on a Form 1,
then sued for a tax refund, claiming the set was not a SBR, unless
it actually was assembled with the shoulder stock, and short
barrel, something they instructed the purchaser of the set not to
do. The Supreme court disagreed with ATF, and agreed with
Thompson/Center.

The Court said that a set of parts was not a short barreled
rifle, unless the only way to assemble the parts was into a short
barreled rifle. As this set had a legitimate, legal, use for all
the parts it was OK. However they also approved of lower court
cases holding that the sale by one person, at the same place, of
all the parts to assemble an AR-15, with a short barrel, was sale
of a SBR, even if they weren't assembled together at the moment of
the bust, and had in fact never been assembled. See U.S. v.
Drasen, 845 F.2d 731 (7th Cir. 1988).



If you don't believe me, read Stephen Halbrook on the case.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:50:23 PM EDT
A T/C is Reg. as a pistola.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:51:22 PM EDT
you can make a hand gun out of it aslong as you have the grip
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:52:50 PM EDT
Cant have a rifel shorter than 16 in
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:58:08 PM EDT
Here is the complete text of the Supreme Court ruling. Link Thompson Center won, but I'm not smart enough to determine exactly what they won.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:04:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 8:06:44 PM EDT by txgp17]
illegal, yes
At least the paper work that came with my buddies said it was.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:08:47 PM EDT
From the halbrook link:


On June 8, 1992, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Contender pistol and carbine kit are not a short-barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. §5845(a)(3). This means that a consumer may possess the pistol with its 10" barrel and may use the kit parts to make a rifle with the 21" barrel, as long as the shoulder stock is not assembled onto the receiver at the same time as the 10" barrel.




http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

GR

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:10:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 8:12:20 PM EDT by MudBug]

Originally Posted By Dilbert_556:
Here is the complete text of the Supreme Court ruling. Link Thompson Center won, but I'm not smart enough to determine exactly what they won.



That case is about something else. T/C was selling a combo kit. A 10" barreled pistol + a carbine kit. So in one box you had the frame, both pistol grip and carbine stock, and both a 10" pistol barrel w/ HG and a 16" barrel w/ HG. The ATF claimed that T/C was selling SBR's without paying the tax because in that box was the means to attach a rifle stock and a 10" barrel to the same frame, making a SBR. The Court ruled in T/C's favor, saying that the ATF was being a dick.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:14:56 PM EDT
In Mi your pistol must have safety check and green card to be legal. I might take mine in and reg as pistol.
A friend has a .223 pistol and I like it.

Something else interesting on the same site about assembling and manufacturing rifles. I need someone smarter than me with words to decode it.
supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZC.html
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:15:28 PM EDT
Thanks again.

It's legal

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:55:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 8:56:21 PM EDT by Phil_in_Seattle]
I don't understand why this is so difficult

If you start by buying this as a rifle from a dealer:


You do not get to turn it into this pistol:


If you start with this pistol:


You can turn it into this rifle:


and back into this pistol:



UNITED STATES, PETITIONER v. THOMPSON/CENTER ARMS COMPANY
is about constructive possesion
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:13:06 PM EDT
Except someone said that ALL of the frames are registered as handgun frames.

Which means it would be legal to convert the firearm purchased as a rifle to a handgun,
because even though it was purchased as a rifle, the frame was that of a handgun.

(assuming the frames really are all handgun frames)

Anyone know if that is true?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:16:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Except someone said that ALL of the frames are registered as handgun frames.

Which means it would be legal to convert the firearm purchased as a rifle to a handgun,
because even though it was purchased as a rifle, the frame was that of a handgun.

(assuming the frames really are all handgun frames)

Anyone know if that is true?




I went through this same discussion a couple years ago and the answer was just what I said. It's legal. I found the info on greybeards forum but I've been searching for the same info again and can't find it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:29:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 9:30:40 PM EDT by The_Reaper]

Originally Posted By MudBug:

Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Except someone said that ALL of the frames are registered as handgun frames.

Which means it would be legal to convert the firearm purchased as a rifle to a handgun,
because even though it was purchased as a rifle, the frame was that of a handgun.

(assuming the frames really are all handgun frames)

Anyone know if that is true?




I went through this same discussion a couple years ago and the answer was just what I said. It's legal. I found the info on greybeards forum but I've been searching for the same info again and can't find it.



HERE
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 9:57:13 PM EDT
I bought an Encore frame for a custom build (.17 mach IV setup as a rifle) a couple years ago, and the frame was registered as a pistol. I don't know if they're all like that, but I was told that it was the only way I could get just the frame.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:15:15 AM EDT
Cool,

So I could buy the frame by itself, registered as a pistol.
Then buy a 12ga rifled slug barrel and chop it down to 14 inches.
And have a .73 caliber pistol.

Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:53:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
I'm pretty sure that is incorrect.

I believe there is something in the law that specifies single shots (probably not all single shots, see below) as being exempt and I believe it actually mentions the Encore/Contender by style or name.

You can change from pistol to rifle and back or from rifle to pistol and back as much as you want with the Encore.


Nope. Sorry, but that's misinformation, plain and simple.

The T/C case involved selling a buttstock-and-long-barrel kit to convert back and forth from pistol to rifle. It never modified the NFA to allow conversions from rifle to pistol. The courts don't have that power (not without invalidating the entire section of the NFA, which, while it would be nice, hasn't happened).

Buy the Encore as a pistol receiver and you're fine. Buy it as a rifle receiver and you are stuck with a rifle for all eternity, legally speaking. (Whether they'd ever catch you or not is another matter.)


Originally Posted By MudBug:
That's actually not true. T/C went though a big mess with the ATF over this and the outcome was that all T/C recievers are classed as pistol recievers, no matter what config you bought them in. So even if you bought a T/C Encore Muzzle Loader, you can legally convert it to a pistol, because that it how the ATF views them.


False. Whatever got written on the original factory documentation -- pistol or rifle -- is the receiver's permanent status (unless it gets registered under the NFA as a SBR).

Muzzle loaders are not regulated under GCA68, so that is a whole different issue.

MudBug, regarding your later comment about David Hineline being "wrong", he's not -- you are.


Originally Posted By The_Reaper:
Except someone said that ALL of the frames are registered as handgun frames.

Which means it would be legal to convert the firearm purchased as a rifle to a handgun,
because even though it was purchased as a rifle, the frame was that of a handgun.

(assuming the frames really are all handgun frames)

Anyone know if that is true?


I don't believe that it is true, because handgun possession in some states is much stricter than rifle possession, not to mention the federal laws regarding being 21 to buy handguns and 18 to buy rifles/shotguns.

I know for a fact that when I bought my Contender Carbine, it was sold as a rifle, and that putting a short barrel and pistol grip on it would be a violation of the NFA.

The "graybeard" dude even stated (his April 25th post near the bottom) that they are selling G2 Contenders as rifles.

The only person who said otherwise was one internet BBS commando who claims to have talked to BATF and was told, verbally, what everyone else has stated is a flagrantly wrong answer. BATF's verbal assurances hold no water -- unless you get a written letter from them stating that you're ok, you have nothing to fall back on but "hey, some guy on the internet said he called them and I believed him."

Therefore I call bullshit.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:54:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
Thanks again.

It's legal



Give your dog lots of loving while he's still alive. Poor little guy. I'll send flowers to his funeral.
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 2:56:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Burley:
I don't worry about it.



Why tell anyone it had a stock on it one time?
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 3:00:10 PM EDT
As I recall, ATF stepped on itself in court by saying that allowing short barreled TCs would cause a crime wave. The Supremes laughed at the idea of a wave of drive-bys using single shot Thompsons.
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