Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 2/10/2006 7:36:42 PM EDT
Considering that the Protestant Reformation is demarcated as the true beginning of Western civilization clawing its way out of the dark ages, ushering in the age of Reason/Romanticism, science, democratic ideals, etc. - do you think that Islam needs a reformation of its own to claw its way out of the 13th century fundamentalism that seems to be holding sway over it?

I am wondering what would be needed to bring them into the 21st century. I mean, a few fucking cartoons get their panties in a wad. They use barbaric tactics to press their claims of moral/cultural/religious superiority, have a monotheistic view of the world that brooks no alternate opinion, and solve all of their problems with violence.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:37:14 PM EDT
Canned sunshine.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:37:17 PM EDT
couldnt hurt
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:37:20 PM EDT
yep
right now, islam is in it's dark ages. just like christianity was during the medieval era.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:38:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 7:39:46 PM EDT by triburst1]
I think a Hiroshima style reformation of Islam is needed.*

­


*The evil-doers only of course.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:39:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Canned sunshine.



+1
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:40:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Canned sunshine.



+1


what I was gonna say too
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:41:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 7:42:22 PM EDT by Spade]

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
just like christianity was during the medieval era.




*begins large historical rant about medieval culture between its rise and the end of the European warm period and the rise of fundementalism during the little ice age*

Nah, I'm tired.


Anyway, yeah, Islam needs one. I don't think they'll get one.

See, when the reformation happened, remember it started with the goal of reforming the Catholic Church, not to make a break. People started out working inside the church structure. There was a solid church structure you could point at, and say "okay, this this and this are wrong".

This does not exist in Islam. Islam is wayyyy too loose to do that kind of reformation. No structure.

It's like trying to fix something in the US Gov't, vs fixing something in the UN. One's solid, one's not.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:44:41 PM EDT
Guys, I'm not asking for "kill them all" type comments. I'm honestly wondering if there are people out there in the Islamic community who are working towards a reformation of the VERY conservative, 13th century ideas/laws/interpretations of the Koran that seems very prevalent in the Muslim community.

Do you think that a "Phoenix Project" may be in order? Whack the violent/firebrand Immams, take out terrorist leaders and Muslim dictators, etc.?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 7:46:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
Guys, I'm not asking for "kill them all" type comments. I'm honestly wondering if there are people out there in the Islamic community who are working towards a reformation of the VERY conservative, 13th century ideas/laws/interpretations of the Koran that seems very prevalent in the Muslim community.

Do you think that a "Phoenix Project" may be in order? Whack the violent/firebrand Immams, take out terrorist leaders and Muslim dictators, etc.?



I thought between Israel and ourselves we had been doing that for years. Seems the snake has many heads.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:20:29 PM EDT
My studied belief is that Islam is corrupt at its very foundation. The "angel" who dictated the Koran to Mohammed, I am convinced, was an angel of Satan.

So what what would be served to reform such a religion?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:25:05 PM EDT
Martin Luther posted his 95 theses on the door at Wittenberg in 1517.

The Catholic Church lost it's right to use force against Protestants in the Treaty of Westphalia in 1648.

131 years of ideological struggle and warfare. It's going to be a mess.


Steve

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:26:19 PM EDT
Why give them the chance?

News flash:THIS IS A COUNTRY WITH A PRESIDENT THAT BELIEVES ARMAGEDDON IS LESS THAN 2 YEARS AWAY AND THAT IT IS THE DESTINY OF ISLAM TO COME OUT ON THE ASS END AS THE WORLDS ONLY RELIGION, THIS IS THE SAME ASSHAT BUSTING HIS ASS TO GET NUKES. AND WE'RE ALL WORRIED ABOUT FUCKING CARTOONS, AND STATE SPONSORED RIOTS OVER THEM THAT HAVE TAKEN OUR EYES OFF HIS NUKE QUEST!


OH, AND IBTL
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:29:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 8:31:16 PM EDT by KBaker]
Well, it won't happen because there isn't one "Mother Mosque." There already are schisms in the Muslim faith - Sunni, Shia, & Sufi. Then there are subdivisions of those, such as Wahabism, which is a sect of the Sunni division.

Martin Luther broke up Christianity into Catholic and Protestant. The Catholic faiths divided somewhat, the Protestant faiths divided radically. (Lutheran & Calvinist, followed by Presbyterian, Puritan, Methodist, Baptist, etc., etc.) Protestant Christianity tended to "tame" the more extreme Catholic faiths. but now Protestant Christianity holds the most "radical" sects. (See: Fred Phelps et al.)

I see no evidence that the Sufi (go along & get along) faith is going to have any kind of similar effect on either the Sunni or Shia sects. It's pretty much reviled by both of those.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:32:20 PM EDT
Only if it will take for good. Otherwise, there are other options on the table.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:33:16 PM EDT
It will take some time, but the Iran & terrorist crap these kids are fed is not helping
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:40:29 PM EDT
I was thinking maybe more of an AC-130 reformation.

Not of all, but the ones who riot and burn and drag Americans down the street, for sure.

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:41:14 PM EDT
I'm not a trained ro educated person on the details of Islam, but I get the basic's, hell I even work with a couple of muzzie's.
Till they(muslims) get to a point that they can all see the problems( all religions have them) and make a effort to correct them,and realize that they have to share the earth with other faiths( hard to kill a billion christians, just to name one religion.)Then it's going to get nasty.

On another note as socities become more wealthier they loose their rabid grip on their faith and become more tolerant of other faiths, or embrace more scientific trans of thought.
Too bad with all that oil thouse countries couldn't have helped their own people instead of taking steps down the primrose path towards a nuke confrontation with the U.S./West.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 8:43:52 PM EDT
Needed? Perhaps.

Gonna happen? No.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:16:17 PM EDT
If they want to throw down, it is all fine and dandy with me. But they have to realize first of all that we aren’t a weak people. Especially after the thousands of years of conflict that our ancestors endured before coming to America, no matter where they came from.

The one thing that we have going for us is from a quote I read in someone's sig line here, and I will paraphrase it from memory at least how I feel it is anyway.

Something to the effect of the American (Christian) would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.

Well to us this isn't about Christianity, Judaism or Islam. It is about Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They are the aggressors, threatening the fabric of our being. Oh sure, they see it being all about their culture/religion being better than ours. In reality it is about repression, control, tyranny etc. all the things that we as Americans stand against. It wouldn't have mattered what happened in the past, whether or not we bent over backwards to help them or bent them over and gave it to them up the butt. What most people don't understand is that just our existence is enough to anger them (the fundamentalist) and if it wasn't us it would be somebody else (yeah you know who). So yeah you buddy reading this, the fact that you’re happy has pissed someone off. Why the nerve of you existing and reaping the rewards of your labors, while he is consumed with anger, contempt and hatred for his fellow man.

For the most part our ancestors didn't come here to build an empire, rule the world or force our values on anyone else. Something that has allowed our people to prosper and have a good quality of life, very few people outside this country understand this. Unfortunately we are morally obligated to share the planet with those that seek to kill us, at least until they make the first move.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:22:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 9:22:47 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By SJetwrench:
I'm not a trained ro educated person on the details of Islam, but I get the basic's, hell I even work with a couple of muzzie's.
Till they(muslims) get to a point that they can all see the problems( all religions have them) and make a effort to correct them,and realize that they have to share the earth with other faiths( hard to kill a billion christians, just to name one religion.)Then it's going to get nasty.

On another note as socities become more wealthier they loose their rabid grip on their faith and become more tolerant of other faiths, or embrace more scientific trans of thought.
Too bad with all that oil thouse countries couldn't have helped their own people instead of taking steps down the primrose path towards a nuke confrontation with the U.S./West.



In MOST societies that is true… the 9-11 hijackers were from middle class to wealthy backgrounds and educated… as are very many if not the vast majority of Al Qaeda organizers.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:25:12 PM EDT
islam needs bombs and bullets, and lots of graves to lie in; not reform.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:58:20 PM EDT
So the arfcom concensus is that bringing democracy to the muslim world isn't going to work?

That's kinda what I've always thought but as rabid as most here are in their support of the campaign I thought I was in the minority.

So, escalation then?

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 10:01:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 10:02:16 PM EDT by motown_steve]
Nevermind.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 10:14:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:05:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By SJetwrench:
I'm not a trained ro educated person on the details of Islam, but I get the basic's, hell I even work with a couple of muzzie's.
Till they(muslims) get to a point that they can all see the problems( all religions have them) and make a effort to correct them,and realize that they have to share the earth with other faiths( hard to kill a billion christians, just to name one religion.)Then it's going to get nasty.

On another note as socities become more wealthier they loose their rabid grip on their faith and become more tolerant of other faiths, or embrace more scientific trans of thought.
Too bad with all that oil thouse countries couldn't have helped their own people instead of taking steps down the primrose path towards a nuke confrontation with the U.S./West.



In MOST societies that is true… the 9-11 hijackers were from middle class to wealthy backgrounds and educated… as are very many if not the vast majority of Al Qaeda organizers.



So are they just lashing out at daddy, rebelling against the "man" that is holding them down?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 11:18:35 PM EDT by helogene]
Here's "MIRV*".......
Sun at Midnight.....A cool concept!

<­BR>



MIRV: multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles
www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/NC/mirv/mirv.html
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:21:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
Guys, I'm not asking for "kill them all" type comments. I'm honestly wondering if there are people out there in the Islamic community who are working towards a reformation of the VERY conservative, 13th century ideas/laws/interpretations of the Koran that seems very prevalent in the Muslim community.

Do you think that a "Phoenix Project" may be in order? Whack the violent/firebrand Immams, take out terrorist leaders and Muslim dictators, etc.?



I thought between Israel and ourselves we had been doing that for years. Seems the snake has many heads.



So maybe we should try a new approach?
Like addressing the root causes of terrorism - dictatorships?

As for a reformation in Islam - it can't and won't happen.
The different sects are set in stone, and no new interpretations are allowed. (over simplification, but you get the gist)
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:52:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By whs78:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By SJetwrench:
I'm not a trained ro educated person on the details of Islam, but I get the basic's, hell I even work with a couple of muzzie's.
Till they(muslims) get to a point that they can all see the problems( all religions have them) and make a effort to correct them,and realize that they have to share the earth with other faiths( hard to kill a billion christians, just to name one religion.)Then it's going to get nasty.

On another note as socities become more wealthier they loose their rabid grip on their faith and become more tolerant of other faiths, or embrace more scientific trans of thought.
Too bad with all that oil thouse countries couldn't have helped their own people instead of taking steps down the primrose path towards a nuke confrontation with the U.S./West.



In MOST societies that is true… the 9-11 hijackers were from middle class to wealthy backgrounds and educated… as are very many if not the vast majority of Al Qaeda organizers.



So are they just lashing out at daddy, rebelling against the "man" that is holding them down?



No... Fanatics caught in a 7th century time warp out for world domination through fear and terror.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 10:54:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By whs78:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By SJetwrench:
I'm not a trained ro educated person on the details of Islam, but I get the basic's, hell I even work with a couple of muzzie's.
Till they(muslims) get to a point that they can all see the problems( all religions have them) and make a effort to correct them,and realize that they have to share the earth with other faiths( hard to kill a billion christians, just to name one religion.)Then it's going to get nasty.

On another note as socities become more wealthier they loose their rabid grip on their faith and become more tolerant of other faiths, or embrace more scientific trans of thought.
Too bad with all that oil thouse countries couldn't have helped their own people instead of taking steps down the primrose path towards a nuke confrontation with the U.S./West.



In MOST societies that is true… the 9-11 hijackers were from middle class to wealthy backgrounds and educated… as are very many if not the vast majority of Al Qaeda organizers.



So are they just lashing out at daddy, rebelling against the "man" that is holding them down?



No... Fanatics caught in a 7th century time warp out for world domination through fear and terror.



Do they realize that we have all kinds of techno-goodies and if we too the gloves off, that in several thousand years archealogists might be finding bits and pieces of what was left behind?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:15:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 11:16:12 AM EDT by KBaker]

Originally Posted By whs78:

Do they realize that we have all kinds of techno-goodies and if we too(k) the gloves off, that in several thousand years archealogists might be finding bits and pieces of what was left behind?

As a Usenet poster once wrote,

To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated.

The burning question is, has the West become domesticated?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:36:32 AM EDT
I'm sure we will all be driving Islamic cars one day. After all, we forgave the murderous suicidal Kamikaze pilots and Japan. Just a matter of time.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:36:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/12/2006 6:50:44 AM EDT
CoC prevents me from saying what sort of reformation islam needs to go through....
Top Top