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Posted: 2/10/2006 6:06:02 PM EDT
I got this alert e-mail from NRA. What have y'all been hearing?



On February 15, the U.S. House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security will hold an oversight hearing (the first of three BATFE-related hearings) to investigate apparent wrongdoing by BATFE at a Richmond, VA gun show last August.



In 2004-05, a troubling pattern emerged at a number of Richmond, VA-area gun shows, where hundreds of BATFE agents and state and local police staked out local shows. Immediately upon learning of these incidents, NRA began investigating and working to ensure congressional oversight hearings would be held to determine any wrongdoing and ensure BATFE was not overstepping its bounds or violating the law.



BATFE agents copied lawful gun purchase transaction records and provided this information to local police officers, who in turn conducted "residency checks." Federal law prohibits the release of this information except in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. The information provided to local police prompted multiple instances of officers showing up at the homes of those who lawfully purchased firearms from licensed dealers. When the lawful purchasers were not at home, agents questioned family members (for example, inquiring of a wife if she knew her husband was at a gun show and/or had purchased a firearm) or their neighbors. In other cases, reports surfaced of lawful gun owners and holders of valid carry permits having their firearms confiscated.



Those interested in watching the hearing online may do so at http://judiciary.house.gov/schedule.aspx. The hearing is scheduled to begin at approximately 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 15.



So much for the "NRA does nothing" crowd.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 6:13:51 PM EDT
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:28:55 PM EDT
VCDL (local gun rights outfit) certainly jumped on this faster than the NRA.

Still, I gotta think the NRA was the primary force behind actually getting a U.S. House Judiciary Subcommittee to hold an oversight hearing over it.

It appears ATF’s actions were flat out illegal. This subcommittee could really rake ATF over the coals if they want to.

I’m hoping these hearings will be televised.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:28:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:
VCDL (local gun rights outfit) certainly jumped on this faster than the NRA.

Still, I gotta think the NRA was the primary force behind actually getting a U.S. House Judiciary Subcommittee to hold an oversight hearing over it.

It appears ATF’s actions were flat out illegal. This subcommittee could really rake ATF over the coals if they want to.

I’m hoping these hearings will be televised.




Those interested in watching the hearing online may do so at http://judiciary.house.gov/schedule.aspx. The hearing is scheduled to begin at approximately 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday, February 15.


Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:30:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:36:00 AM EDT
tagged and hiding the dog for Wed.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:39:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.




I don't think it was as much of a dish on the NRA as it was to state that VCDL gets 98% of the pro-gun work done in this state. PVC and VCDL are our 600lb Gorilla in VA!

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:44:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 5:45:30 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
The VCDL was involved almost immediately, due to the ties of the show organizers and the VCDL officers. The NRA picked up the story and notified the rest of the world.

It was a cooperative effort to get the word out to the country.

There is another thread covering some of the previous dicsussions:

BATFE Hearing Thread

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:44:41 AM EDT
Got the email this morning. That is an example of the ones that got caught. I would assume that this is no isolated event. I predict that it will become more common, and thus more acceptable in the guise of protecting "the American people."

Who were these guys supposed to be protecting? What was their intent? What good came from their invasion of the privacy of American citizens?

>>crickets<<

Related to my thought progression...
I am sick of the politicans using that phrase too. The American people. For one, I have never been asked anything buy them, and two, they usually spew something I, and those around me, do not agree with. So who the fuck are they talking about?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:48:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.



You'll have to excuse us Virginians if we seem a little defensive about the VCDL. The have done more for out gun rights than the NRA (of which I'm a member as well) in the past year than the NRA has done for us in the past five.

When the VCDL brought this to our attention they were called liars and accused of making this shit up. Now, several months later when the NRA finally gets around to we feel that it's too little too late.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:00:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:

You'll have to excuse us Virginians if we seem a little defensive about the VCDL. The have done more for out gun rights than the NRA (of which I'm a member as well) in the past year than the NRA has done for us in the past five.

When the VCDL brought this to our attention they were called liars and accused of making this shit up. Now, several months later when the NRA finally gets around to we feel that it's too little too late.



Huge +1 and the reason the VCDL gets more money from me than the NRA does every year.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:10:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4arc:


You'll have to excuse us Virginians if we seem a little defensive about the VCDL. The have done more for out gun rights than the NRA (of which I'm a member as well) in the past year than the NRA has done for us in the past five.

When the VCDL brought this to our attention they were called liars and accused of making this shit up. Now, several months later when the NRA finally gets around to we feel that it's too little too late.

When I first recieved the VCDL e-mail I started telling people about it and everyone brushed it off as a tinfoil hat thing. Some of use are a tad bid jaded because of it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:26:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.Unless you have signed up for their e-mail alerts, you wouldn't have heard anything about it. VCDL is the Virginia Citizens Defense League, and most of it's members are Virginia residents. If you are inerested in getting their alerts just go to VCDL and sign up for them. BTW, they have also been all over the Dept of Interior trying to get the rules of National parks to defer to state law WRT CCH. So they are also trying to help others in other states.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:00:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 7:00:16 AM EDT by bulldog1967]

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.



Hardly Larry,

I'm a NRA life member.


As hads been stated, VCDL has done more for 2nd Amendment issues in VA than the NRA has and I don't see this trend ending anytime soon.

I'm glad they are on the same page on this.

I'm also just a little bent out of shape that the NRA-endorsed candidate for VA Governor lost the campaign because he ran the STUPIDEST campaign I ever seen.

Oh, and his campaign went out and slandered Philip Van Cleave of VCDL in the Washington Times.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 7:23:51 AM EDT
VCDL is a fantastic organization. Even us backwoods WV shooters think they are the tits. I NEED to get off my ass and support them more. I called and talked to the VCDL head guy once and was VERY impressed. Stand up Americans every one.

The thing I try and keep in mind is that NRA is a global organization that focuses on a much broader picture than VCDL. There is no way that they can respond as quickly to a Virginia event as VCDL. VCDL focuses almost(I said almost) exclusively on Virginia. That is going to put them way ahead of the NRA in keeping on top of local events.

I think the NRA is one of the main reasons that we still enjoy the gun rights we have today. They cast a very broad net, and that can mean they move a bit slower than other groups, particularly when dealing with local issues, but they have much more "Bite" at a national/federal level than VCDL. They can effect federal change much more effectively than a local based group because they have a much broader group of supporters, have more access to greater funding, and are well organized to make national level changes.

Comparing VCDL to NRA is apples and oranges. They both worked together on this issue, and are actually doing something about it on a large scale as well as locally. I am thrilled to see this kind of group effort. The fact that they work together like this puts a smile on my face. National level change rarely occurs over night. I do however rest assured that there are two fantastic organizations working very hard to ensure our liberties.

Three cheers for NRA and VCDL getting this brought to the nations attention! We still have a dog in the fight gentlemen and ladies. Let's see what we can do to support these guys.

2IDdoc
NRA member/soon to be VCDL member
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 2:57:00 PM EDT
The VCDL and NRA are very different animals.

The VCDL is a small but extremely effective state organization. It has its ear to ground here and can mobilize very quickly. In the VA state legislature it certainly is the 600-pound gorilla.

OTOH, the NRA is a large, ponderously slow national organization. No doubt before making any decision, multiple layers of bureaucracy have to approve everything.

Still, in the US Congress it’s the NRA that’s the 600-pound gorilla. And ATF is answerable to Congress, not the VA state legislature.

Basically, the VCDL is a fast naval destroyer, while the NRA is a slow moving battleship. They’re just different.

We need both.


Originally Posted By LARRYG:
...

Those interested in watching the hearing online may do so at http://judiciary.house.gov/schedule.aspx. ....


Yea - but I can’t get that on my TV!

And I won’t even try with my phone modem.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:03:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
VCDL did more to alert everyone then the NRA ever did.

Nothing will come from the hearings. Its a dog and pony show.



Well, aren't we just a ray of sunshine.

Maybe VCDL alerted you guys locally, but I am outside Virginia and heard nothing until this.

I love it. The NRA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.


Who do you think alerted the NRA? The VCDL did the heavy lifting on this one.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:09:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 3:16:36 PM EDT by Jacketch]

Originally Posted By M4arc:
You'll have to excuse us Virginians if we seem a little defensive about the VCDL. The have done more for out gun rights than the NRA (of which I'm a member as well) in the past year than the NRA has done for us in the past five.

When the VCDL brought this to our attention they were called liars and accused of making this shit up. Now, several months later when the NRA finally gets around to we feel that it's too little too late.

+1 on both counts.

I also recall that more than a few Arfcom members refused to believe what happened. The VCDL was called numerous unflatering names by the doubters here in spite of the fact that some of us were there and witnessed what happened. I am not surprised that the NRA (of which I'm a member) was slow to act (they were there too) but I'm glad they did if they are in fact the catalyst for the hearings.

eta I also remember I took home a fantastic K31 that day.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:19:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I got this alert e-mail from NRA. What have y'all been hearing?

The day this happened, the VCDL sent out notification to all its members. When did you get the alert from the NRA?
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 3:32:47 PM EDT
LARRYG - Sorry if we seemed edgy about this, truly sorry.

We are glad that the NRA has picked this one up and we are happy to see folks from other states become aware of what happened. This shouldn't happen in ANY state!

Thanks for becoming aware and involved!
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:55:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jacketch:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I got this alert e-mail from NRA. What have y'all been hearing?

The day this happened, the VCDL sent out notification to all its members. When did you get the alert from the NRA?



Yesterday. Being in Georgia, I am not a member of VCDL.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 4:59:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By Jacketch:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I got this alert e-mail from NRA. What have y'all been hearing?

The day this happened, the VCDL sent out notification to all its members. When did you get the alert from the NRA?



Yesterday. Being in Georgia, I am not a member of VCDL.


This was all over GD and the VA hometown forums for a week or two after it happened.

Must've missed it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:10:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 5:29:26 PM EDT by Jacketch]

Originally Posted By M4arc:
LARRYG -

Thanks for becoming aware and involved!

+1

eta If you want to see how the best gun rights group in the country operates, go here and sign up for the VA-email alerts that come out regularly. If each state had this kind of organization, we would all be better off.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 5:28:13 PM EDT
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