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Posted: 2/8/2006 6:56:47 PM EDT
alright. ive shot IDPA in bridgeport a couple of times, and started to shoot now in new milford. well tonight a NYPD guy shows up. he just got out of the academy. he had a glock in 9mm. i dont know if it was a 17 or a 19. but the guy just seemed real uncomfertable around his fire arm. im not picking on cops. when i get older, i want to get into law enforcment. but the guy didnt really know how to handle it. we turned off all the lights and had to use our flash lights. we had to have a guy show him how to use his flash light and shoot at the same time. he even had trouble using cover. i feel bad for the guy, because they didnt train him that well. i hope the IDPA helps him. he was a real nice guy. but when it came down to shooting, he had a hard time kind of. practice makes perfect i guess.

take care
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:01:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:07:58 PM EDT
Yes. Weapons use should be a much deeper subject than it is in the academy. I have seen what you describe many times.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:08:34 PM EDT
InbeforesomeonesaysitwasprobablyWave
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:10:29 PM EDT
"Weapons should only be in the hands of our highly trained police officers!"

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:11:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By buddysblackrifle:
alright. ive shot IDPA in bridgeport a couple of times, and started to shoot now in new milford. well tonight a NYPD guy shows up. he just got out of the academy. he had a glock in 9mm. i dont know if it was a 17 or a 19. but the guy just seemed real uncomfertable around his fire arm. im not picking on cops. when i get older, i want to get into law enforcment. but the guy didnt really know how to handle it. we turned off all the lights and had to use our flash lights. we had to have a guy show him how to use his flash light and shoot at the same time. he even had trouble using cover. i feel bad for the guy, because they didnt train him that well. i hope the IDPA helps him. he was a real nice guy. but when it came down to shooting, he had a hard time kind of. practice makes perfect i guess.

take care



He must realize something isn't quite right with the training he received and is part of the reason he came to the shoot.

He can only benefit from the additional experience and training.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:15:21 PM EDT
Yeah. That damn capitalization thing is a waste of time, just like paragraphs. Screw making it easy to read.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:17:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:
Yeah. That damn capitalization thing is a waste of time, just like paragraphs. Screw making it easy to read.




capita.....captai....caipit......Them big letters are hard to work with.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:24:03 PM EDT
I was at a gun show this past weekend...and also not to cop bash, but...I checked in my 1911 and he was having quite a hard time trying to figure out how to unload it because the safety was on. I was even explaining to him that it wasn't going to open because of the safety and pointing to it, but it was just obviously something he had never dealt with before. Here this guy is, about twice my age and wearing a badge and uniform, I feel bad like I'm going to humiliate him, but what can I do but let him sit there and struggle. Anyway, I'm dissapointed...not with him, but the lack of training.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:35:22 PM EDT
In most of the rest of the country kids go hunting with their dads (and moms, too), compete in various outdoor sports, and are quite comfortable with firearms. It is more a rural/urban thing. There is nothing about being a LEO that automatically makes you skillful with firearms. Certainly not the training, for the most part. Granted, training will hone your skills, but the the basics should already be there.

Give the guy a break, he probably grew up in the city.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:44:21 PM EDT
No dogs were hurt in the making of this thread.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:46:40 PM EDT
As a shooter, you all need to step up to the plate and help these guys. Cop or not, new shooters can benefit from wisdom of the experienced.

Who knows, maybe you'll be the hostage and he has to take the shot on your captor. Man up and help him out.

Now if they refuse help, fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:53:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:54:29 PM EDT
The only kind of gun he's going to use anyway ...

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:57:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sp0rk:
As a shooter, you all need to step up to the plate and help these guys. Cop or not, new shooters can benefit from wisdom of the experienced.

Who knows, maybe you'll be the hostage and he has to take the shot on your captor. Man up and help him out.

Now if they refuse help, fuck 'em.




good point, I would rather help out someone who doesn't know what they are doing than see an innocent person get hurt due to their incompitence. Besides with a little advice maybe he will end up being a decent shot and a gun enthusiast.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:57:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Guardian_Demon:
I was at a gun show this past weekend...and also not to cop bash, but...I checked in my 1911 and he was having quite a hard time trying to figure out how to unload it because the safety was on. I was even explaining to him that it wasn't going to open because of the safety and pointing to it, but it was just obviously something he had never dealt with before. Here this guy is, about twice my age and wearing a badge and uniform, I feel bad like I'm going to humiliate him, but what can I do but let him sit there and struggle. Anyway, I'm dissapointed...not with him, but the lack of training.



Nothing to be disappointed about. Most LEOs are only familiar with their duty weapons and the weapons they typically pull off the street, much like most military members are only familiar with their assigned weapons.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 8:38:33 PM EDT
Agreed, you folks should be patient with LE people. Many municpalities are cutting back on LE training to save money. He probably didn't get any special training on low-light shooting and the city fathers are hoping that their LE personal would learn on the job. The hobbyist gunner probably shoot more rounds per year than most LE people.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:40:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:
I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.


Then you also remember the body armor the bad guys were wearing and the high volume of FA fire that was being put out by the bad guys.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!



You honestly should have tryed to help him.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:48:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tanam:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!



You honestly should have tryed to help him.



Nah, it's more fun to slam a guy who cares enough about his pistolcraft that he's trying to get additional training on his own.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:49:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:50:47 PM EDT by Tanam]

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.



If only they had you and Your 30-30.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:52:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:52:55 PM EDT by GeorgeInNePa]
A friend, andfellow USPSA and IDPA shooter, of mine is a local cop and also a gun store owner. He also is a firearms instructor at a local college for the Pa. Act 120 class, this is where the municipal cops-to-be go for their training.

If you heard even half of the stories he's told us, you wouldn't believe it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:57:43 PM EDT
When I went through the academy there was a handful of guys that had never shot a gun before. Luckily we had a fair amount of firearms time in daylight, low light, no light (flashlight) and cover/concealment.

The fact is that there is only so much training that they can cram in to the academy. And now with cultural awareness and inter-personal communications hours taking up that valuable time things like firearms and pursuit driving get cut back.

The onus is on the individual officer, unfortunately, to get the additional training to be proficient with his/her tools. I commend that officer for getting out there and participating.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:07:38 PM EDT
Common knowledge.

I doubt you’ll find many (if any) LE firearms instructors in this entire country who feel their regular street guys (not SWAT or such) get enough firearms and officer safety training. Budgets just don’t allow it.


Originally Posted By rwinn625:
...I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.


You’re remembering something else. Firearms proficiency wasn’t the problem in the North Hollywood shootout.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:16:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 199:
I doubt you’ll find many (if any) LE firearms instructors in this entire country who feel their regular street guys (not SWAT or such) get enough firearms and officer safety training. Budgets just don’t allow it.



It ain't just the budgets. Many patrol officers feel that proficiency with their duty weapons is low priority, because they've "never had to use it," along with the assumption that once street hoods see the gun they'll comply. Heck, many of the raw recruits out of the academies here in CA think guns are "icky."
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:27:34 PM EDT
In MO, i believe most LEs only have to qualify w/ there firearm only like 1 or 2 times a year............................I think???
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:41:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 4:42:36 AM EDT by Wave]
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:45:04 AM EDT
At least he is making an attempt to better his weapon handling skills. Help him out.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:49:57 AM EDT
We had 40 hours of firearms training at the academy. It was not a combat course. Very, very , very basic.

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:54:49 AM EDT
+1 to the whole "budgets, gen. attitude of most cops towards their firearms" etc.

I'm sure that any regular member here has read my comments on the typical state of law enforcement firearms training.

I can sum it up in one word: Pathetic.



Sheep
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:58:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!



Man, that is really really sad, geez. You only got 35 cents?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:58:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GiggleSmith:
No dogs were hurt in the making of this thread.


LOL.

That's funny. Not really funny, but funny nonetheless.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:18:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 5:27:31 AM EDT by gks452]
The head instructor at the pistol class I took was a former chief of a small police force. Here's a few things he said:

- academies spend as much time discussing the legal aspects of a shooting as they do on how to actually use a weapon.

- after they've been out of the academy for a couple years most police only fire their weapons during their annual certification.

- he very much likes teaching civilians than police officers, because we are there by choice and are motivated. While the cops are forced to go and don't care.

- in the previous "Partners" class all the police officers were from the same department. When it came time to do a house search in the "fire house", they all said how relieved they were that a certain officer had not shown up for the class. Even though they had done real life house searches with this guy they were afraid to do a practice one because they knew he would have to shoot his pistol.

ETA:
- if he took someone who has never fired a pistol and tried to get them to pass the police qualification test, it would take 8 hours or a most a weekend, useless the person was totally incompetent

- by the time we completed the 3 day course we would be as well trained with pistols as most police officers.


Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:28:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.



No problem, I will.





If you had said 25 yards I might believe you, but get real. You could give a pistol to anyone off the street and after a "this is the trigger, these are the sights" intro they could get 1 out of 50 on paper.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:41:18 PM EDT
Give the guy a hand and encourage him.

He's stepped up and tried to make himself better, lets not wear him down.

Any chance to convert another badge to the Dark Side(tm) should be encouraged!

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By otar:
InbeforesomeonesaysitwasprobablyWave
<­img src=/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif border=0 align=middle>



Three guesses it was probably Wave?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:02:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.



Let me guess your parents didn't have any kids that lived did they?

You do realize that more LEOS as a percentage of their population are far far better shooters than civilians as a total of their population. Would you really want to be judged as a driver by LEOS based on their contact with most of the "drivers" they meet?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:08:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
In most of the rest of the country kids go hunting with their dads (and moms, too), compete in various outdoor sports, and are quite comfortable with firearms. It is more a rural/urban thing. There is nothing about being a LEO that automatically makes you skillful with firearms. Certainly not the training, for the most part. Granted, training will hone your skills, but the the basics should already be there.

Give the guy a break, he probably grew up in the city.



My thoughts too. A LOT of people in law enforcement today have never or very rarely handled a gun.

GR
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:08:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PaDanby:

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.



Let me guess your parents didn't have any kids that lived did they?

You do realize that more LEOS as a percentage of their population are far far better shooters than civilians as a total of their population. Would you really want to be judged as a driver by LEOS based on their contact with most of the "drivers" they meet?



Just curious, where'd you get that stat?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:16:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!



Seriously??

Can somebody really be THAT bad at shooting?

The first time I ever shot a pistol, i got at least 40 out of 50 shots in the scoring ring of a slow fire target at 50ft.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:45:54 PM EDT
When I had my run in with the ATF at the range outside of Tallahassee and she decided to leave because of our "evil baby killing bullet hoses" we went and looked at her target, ALL her shots on target were LOW, upper legs and groin ONLY. She was shooting at less than 15 yards



Maybe she was also a feminist *thinking*
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:48:45 PM EDT
IMO, the average LEO is on par with the average non-LEO shooter when it comes to shooting/weapon handling.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:56:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By otar:
InbeforesomeonesaysitwasprobablyWave
<­img src=/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif border=0 align=middle>

Oh that was funny, I had a mouth full of Ramen noodles and coke. That new keyboard will be 65.99
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:56:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NonConformist:
When I had my run in with the ATF at the range outside of Tallahassee and she decided to leave because of our "evil baby killing bullet hoses" we went and looked at her target, ALL her shots on target were LOW, upper legs and groin ONLY. She was shooting at less than 15 yards

Thats a one shot stopper on men, smart lady.





Maybe she was also a feminist *thinking*

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:57:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rwinn625:

Originally Posted By tc6969:
Last week at the range I had a lane next to a newbie cop.

At 7 yards he fired an entire box of 40 S&W at a standard red center bullseye and never touched paper.

After he left, I turned his target in and got a 35 cent credit!




I was going to call BS but then I remembered the Hollywood Bank robbers and the cops that tried to stop them.



Hitting a head at 60 yards, on a moving target, that is shooting back, and your using just a pistol is pretty hard if you ask me.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:14:15 PM EDT
Instructor for a large agency near where I live told me that they will give an officer 50 rounds a month to practice with. And every month it's the same 5 or 6 guys who pick up their ammo. And the other guys aren't shooting their own either.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:16:14 PM EDT
We have "open range" days here but I dont take part. Why shoot the state qualification course when I can go out and train on my own in a more realistic manner? Just because people arent showing up for department sponsored training doesnt mean they arent training (though it often does).
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 10:26:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 10:28:38 PM EDT by thedoctors308]

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
IMO, the average LEO is on par with the average non-LEO shooter when it comes to shooting/weapon handling.



I'll drink to that.
Most non-LEO gun owners shoot as often as your average LEO.
Box off bullets once a year or so.
A very fair assesment NCPatrolAR.

ETA: The "gun nuts" are a minority in the non-LE shooting world, just as they are in the LE world.
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