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Posted: 2/8/2006 6:19:51 PM EDT
It seems as if the days of the subgun are gone. We have found out that pistol round actually penitrate walls further than do rifle rounds, and even rifle rounds like the 223 have much better stopping power even out of short 10.5 or 11.5 in barrels. That being said I really dont see the tactical or combat use for a subgun, other than in a supressed role. Is there something im missing or is there another situation where a subgun would be useful?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:24:46 PM EDT
CQB
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:25:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 6:29:06 PM EDT by eye_spy]
Ooooooh here we go again .... i see an "over penetration" debate comming on!


That being said, and without going to the debate of over penetration, i still believe that sub guns still has its role in room clearing and cqb. Granted that SBRs are now also utilized in that role, it does not mean that the sub guns will become a thing of the past. They are equally effective in that role. IMO...
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:26:16 PM EDT
While working security at SWFPAC, entry teams going into an exclusion area (IE a building that had an "Item" in it would use only MP5N's and 12 Ga. 00 Buck because they would not pennetrate the protective containers (H1333's) and missle liners. They were switching to M4's as I left about 7 years ago.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:26:42 PM EDT
Cops seem to like 'em. We don't have a choice in the matter, do we?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:28:01 PM EDT
Tank Drivers?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:30:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
CQB

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:31:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
Ooooooh here we go again .... i see an "over penetration" debate comming on!



its not so much that, it more
low recoil
low muzzel blast
good ROF
small

for me, i would say the p90 is the best for that job
its tiny
50 rounds
vary controlable
even with a can on it, its smaller then a mp5
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:32:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
CQB



+1
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:33:06 PM EDT
No tank commanders and other tank personnell are issued M9's, but from the ones i've talked to coming back from the desert, many have taken to also carrying M4's and 12 GA shottys because of there increased effectivness in case a crew is forced to dismount.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:36:55 PM EDT
CQC, urban warfare, house to house...
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:42:08 PM EDT
Suppressed SMGs still have their place when stealth is imperitive.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:44:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:

Cops seem to like 'em.




Not anymore, they are all switching to carbines.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:49:37 PM EDT
Stealthy assassinations.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:50:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By triburst1:
Suppressed SMGs still have their place when stealth is imperitive.


I agree
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:54:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
It seems as if the days of the subgun are gone. We have found out that pistol round actually penitrate walls further than do rifle rounds, and even rifle rounds like the 223 have much better stopping power even out of short 10.5 or 11.5 in barrels. That being said I really dont see the tactical or combat use for a subgun, other than in a supressed role. Is there something im missing or is there another situation where a subgun would be useful?


Gone from where?
The British Metropolitan police main carbine is the HK MP5.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:00:39 PM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:04:24 PM EDT
Supressed, maybe.
I would take a short-barreled AR
over any subgun in existence, if
given the choice.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:19:52 PM EDT
I know there is a pic someone posted here of a Marine or Army trooper in Iraq clearing a building with a liberated PPSH with drum mag and his issue weapon slung. Ask him if a subgun has a role in combat.
Combat weapons trends go in cycles like anything else --right now strategists and procurement types are stuck in the "the M4 can play all roles" mindset. Having multiple systems and calibers complicates the logistician, accountants and planners lives and they are constantly thinking "how can I streamline this process" and to them an ovbious answer is " Do we really need all these diffrent weapons and calibers?" and then after they are done the next guy comes along and repeats the process. Everytime a war comes along the needs of the soldiers and commanders dictates differnt weapons for diffrent roles and missions and we end up with a whole new slew of tailored systems and solutions --often re-procuring wepons we formerly disposed of. take a good look at the history of combat weapons as a whole and things like battle rifles, sniper rifles and training, subguns, shotguns etc and you will see that they were procured, disposed of, rushed back into production, sneered at and then suddenly needed, shitcanned and recalled, rebuilt so they could be scrapped, over and over agian.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:22:17 PM EDT
TAG
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 7:28:20 PM EDT



Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:55:35 PM EDT
They are good for jacking a civilians car after your convoy gets hit with an IED.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:56:03 PM EDT
shooting bullets?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:56:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JFP:
CQC, urban warfare, house to house...



Yup. Especially suppressed.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:06:39 PM EDT
subguns will stick around because ...well they LOOK COOL....

and every that CANT have one.....wants one
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:07:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:07:29 PM EDT by swingset]
They improve battlefield morale.

You get happy when you shoot them.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:08:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 5:53:50 AM EDT by Swindle1984]

Originally Posted By Ring:

Originally Posted By eye_spy:
Ooooooh here we go again .... i see an "over penetration" debate comming on!



its not so much that, it more
low recoil
low muzzel blast
good ROF
small

for me, i would say the p90 is the best for that job
its tiny
50 rounds
vary controlable
even with a can on it, its smaller then a mp5



Spectre. Uses commonly available 9mm ammunition, uses 50-rnd magazines that take less space than most 30-rnd SMG mags, has a built-in top-folding stock and folding forward vertical grip, is about the same size as the MP5-K, and even forces air through the gun itself to help cool it during extended bursts.

P-90 has an awkward grip, uses a glorified .22 Hornet cartridge that is expensive, hard to find, and hasn't been through enough combat to ascertain its lethality, and only comes in one size that can't be adjusted overly much for different shooters.

Oh, and the Spectre weighs less too.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:18:27 PM EDT
Like Clint Smith used to say, when he worked for HK: 9MM buzzguns will be replaced by rifles.... and they have. 5.56 is much more deadly, and CQB-Rs are compatible with regular ammo, perfect for cross loading. As I wrote in my introductory post, the disadvantages of short 5.56's are being overcome.

People spend too much time worrying about terminal ballistics and not enough training. Most people that I know, or know of, are satisfied with the terminal effects, assuming they made their hits.

Just like sub-guns, subcarbines are used in a peculiar fashion. You stand on the targets toes, put the m uzzle in his ribs and let him have it, so to speak. <----- Not entirely true, but you get the point. As bigbore said, they are a putter. When you go out to play your short game, take the right tools.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:35:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 10:39:28 PM EDT by MisterSuzuki]
...someone will come along, with the picture of a US Marine, holding a Russian PPSH-41.....at least years Fallujah assault.

Here's a small one....anyone have a better one?


Link Posted: 2/8/2006 10:37:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MisterSuzuki:
...someone will come along, with the picture of a US Marine, holding a Russian PPSH-41.....at least years Fallujah assault.


headsbunker.com/img/misc/ppsh1.jpg



I've got two pics of that in my awesome military images thread.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 11:51:13 PM EDT
I think the days of the sub machinegun as a general issue weapon in the military are over. The M-4 carbine is a decent compromise between length and general use once they get out of the building. (Else you'll need to provide troops with two weapons to carry to war). For tank crews, PDWs such as carbined 5.56mm bullpups are plenty small enough, have plenty enough suppressive ability, and have the advantage of using standard magazines with 5.56mm ammo.

NTM
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:02:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 5:04:25 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 12:05:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
The SBS and SAS have switched from 9mm HK MP5's to 5.56mm MP53's and G36K's respectively


ANdy



The pics I saw from when those two SAS operators were arrested in Iraq last year showed 10.5 inch M16 variants. The MP53 has been in service with the US in various ways for a long time, though rarely officially, from what I gather.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 1:53:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 4:12:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
It seems as if the days of the subgun are gone. We have found out that pistol round actually penitrate walls further than do rifle rounds, and even rifle rounds like the 223 have much better stopping power even out of short 10.5 or 11.5 in barrels. That being said I really dont see the tactical or combat use for a subgun, other than in a supressed role. Is there something im missing or is there another situation where a subgun would be useful?



No AR currently made folds up as small as an MP5K.

It is easier for a pilot to have an MP5K tucked under his seat in a chopper than even a shorty AR.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:00:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 5:06:37 AM EDT by StariVojnik]
Ask an Israeli what they think of their UZI and if it still viable in a combat senario.










Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:02:51 AM EDT
MOUT

CQB

Tank drivers

Blackhawk pilots

Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:07:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 12:32:56 PM EDT
That HK53 is brutal to shoot unsupressed
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 1:28:49 PM EDT
Does the SW line have any place in this?
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