I was thinking here after reading the sig thread and about the swiss not releasing the rights to the 551 series. I was thinking about how these companies side with the liberals, and anti gunners agenda's. I mean, why would you not want to expand your business and build a factory in the United States? What reason can you give us that isn't ghey. I do have to say that I do thank Steyr for trying but being denied, and FN for seting up shop and selling to the US civilan market. As for other companies.... *cough* HK *cough* I hope you come to your senses.



I feel better, my rant is done

While not disagreeing with your rant, please note only recently has Congress passed the mfgr shield law from nuisance law suits by the gun grabbers. Let's see if this law allows some conscience clearing from the mfgrs???????

You mean H&K, right?

Quoted: You mean H&K, right?

Yes...

As many have said before, it takes lots of money for European manufacturers to come to America to set up shop simply to make non-LEO firearms. They are taking a big gamble that a AWB of some sort won't pass, and if it does they'll have to make neutered firearms that no one wants.

ie, HK has been burned on this.

Quoted: As many have said before, it takes lots of money for European manufacturers to come to America to set up shop simply to make non-LEO firearms. They are taking a big gamble that a AWB of some sort won't pass, and if it does they'll have to make neutered firearms that no one wants. ie, HK has been burned on this.

You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP!

ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.  

Quoted: Quoted: As many have said before, it takes lots of money for European manufacturers to come to America to set up shop simply to make non-LEO firearms. They are taking a big gamble that a AWB of some sort won't pass, and if it does they'll have to make neutered firearms that no one wants. ie, HK has been burned on this. You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.

A UMP for the civilian market, is that what you mean?

There is one HK gun worth the price of admission.

The HK P7 series.

The rest is over priced boat anchor garbage.   Not interested in their take on what a rifle should be, ergonomics suck.    Not interested in the price of admission either, I can afford it but I choose the platform with better ergonomics and better aftermarket support.

Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed.

With exception of the P7 series, fuck HK.

I am tired of it.  I am also tired of gun makers thinking that by putting an internal failure promotion device (internal gun lock) on a gun, it will somehow be a safer gun.  I'm sorry, but a gun with that feature is probably much more dangerous to the user than the so called "safer" gun.  That crap, along with what HK, Colt, and various other makers do to us, yea.  I'm frigging tired of it.

Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed.

You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO.

Quoted: You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.

OMG, not this again. Was HK selling plenty of HK94s back in 1989? Sure they were.

Why did they stop? NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They stopped because our pro-gun Republican president banned their further importation.

Then they tried to make guns that complied with the import regulations. The govt banned them too.

HK DOES NOT HAVE A FACTORY IN THE US TO PRODUCE RIFLES. PERIOD.

If HK "hated" us, why do they sell USPs to civilians?

How many times do we have to re-hash this on this board???

Quoted: Quoted: You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.   OMG, not this again. Was HK selling plenty of HK94s back in 1989? Sure they were. Why did they stop? NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They stopped because our pro-gun Republican president banned their further importation. Then they tried to make guns that complied with the import regulations. The govt banned them too. HK DOES NOT HAVE A FACTORY IN THE US TO PRODUCE RIFLES. PERIOD. If HK "hated" us, why do they sell USPs to civilians? How many times do we have to re-hash this on this board???

+eleven billion

....but, but HK should sell a UMP to us.

Nevermind it could never be IMPORTED!

Quoted: Quoted: You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.   OMG, not this again. Was HK selling plenty of HK94s back in 1989? Sure they were. Why did they stop? NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They stopped because our pro-gun Republican president banned their further importation. Then they tried to make guns that complied with the import regulations. The govt banned them too. HK DOES NOT HAVE A FACTORY IN THE US TO PRODUCE RIFLES. PERIOD. If HK "hated" us, why do they sell USPs to civilians? How many times do we have to re-hash this on this board???

That's it!!!  For your use of logic and reason in GD, you are sentenced to 5 minutes in the naughty corner.  Don't do it again.......

Quoted: Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO.

No, there are plenty of other people who think similar things.

700+ dollars for a gun that has a trigger as shitty as the one on the USP is unforgiveable.   A trigger pull on such a gun shouldn't feel like it's has a used up condom installed as a spring.    Compound that with how high out of the hand it sits and how it points compared to other guns that the user has a developed muscle memory for.

My problem with the USP was that it made me fight it at every single turn and simply is not worth 700ish dollars.

The P7 series by comparision, is worth price of admission and it's the only gun in the HK line up that lives up to the hype in my experience.

I was actually happy when I sold my USP for a loss.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.   OMG, not this again. Was HK selling plenty of HK94s back in 1989? Sure they were. Why did they stop? NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They stopped because our pro-gun Republican president banned their further importation. Then they tried to make guns that complied with the import regulations. The govt banned them too. HK DOES NOT HAVE A FACTORY IN THE US TO PRODUCE RIFLES. PERIOD. If HK "hated" us, why do they sell USPs to civilians? How many times do we have to re-hash this on this board??? +eleven billion ....but, but HK should sell a UMP to us. Nevermind it could never be IMPORTED!

Yes but with not one, but TWO factories in the US (Sterling, VA, and Columbus, GA), HK could very easily bring the tooling and molds for anything in the HK line, and start producing AMERICAN made HK rifles and carbines.

Quoted: Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO.

No, several people on this board have said the same thing.

Quoted: Yes but with not one, but TWO factories in the US (Sterling, VA, and Columbus, GA), HK could very easily bring the tooling and molds for anything in the HK line, and start producing AMERICAN made HK rifles and carbines.

Neither of those locations is a factory.

Great, the "OMG HK HATES US!1!" fucksticks have another thread.  Christ people, try looking at the facts before posting.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO. No, several people on this board have said the same thing.

yep me too rugged and reliable , but IMO horrible ergos, high bore axis, shitty customer service and not worth 700-800

FN, SigArms, Century Arms, Glock, EAA, and others sell imports here (some even do rifles).  It can be done but the price will be passed on to the end user (why do you think people spend $400 on a $50 AK variant).  I think HK would have no trouble, even at higher prices.  Import kits, slap in the arbitrarily assigned number of US made parts, done deal.  They can do it but haven't.

ETA: they're building a facility in Columbus, but not as big as they wanted.  Then what will the excuse be?

Quoted: Quoted: You mean H&K, right? Yes...

they tried with the flop of the USC and SL8

Also remember they got burned by Bush , or they would still be making and importing the roller lock

Quoted: FN, SigArms, Century Arms, Glock, EAA, and others sell imports here (some even do rifles).  It can be done but the price will be passed on to the end user (why do you think people spend $400 on a $50 AK variant).  I think HK would have no trouble, even at higher prices.  Import kits, slap in the arbitrarily assigned number of US made parts, done deal.  They can do it but haven't. ETA: they're building a facility in Columbus, but not as big as they wanted.  Then what will the excuse be?

Can you read?

Now the company is regrouping in Columbus, forgoing construction of a large plant for an existing 13,170-square-foot building near Columbus East Industrial Park off Macon Road. The structure, formerly used by Cessna Aircraft, is the U.S. distribution center for H&K’s 80 models of weapons and accessories.

THERE IS NO HK "FACTORY" IN COLUMBUS OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE US. THERE WILL NEVER BE ONE, UNLESS HK WINS A MAJOR CONTRACT TO SUPPLY THE US MILITARY.

FN has a factory here, because they were required to build it when they won the contract to supply the M240 and M249 MGs in the early 80s.

You can't compare Glock or EAA to HK. Glock imports pistols. BFD, so does HK. EAA imported Saigas, which are NOT BANNED. The HK equivalent, the USC and SL8, sold so poorly that they were discontinued.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.   OMG, not this again. Was HK selling plenty of HK94s back in 1989? Sure they were. Why did they stop? NOT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They stopped because our pro-gun Republican president banned their further importation. Then they tried to make guns that complied with the import regulations. The govt banned them too. HK DOES NOT HAVE A FACTORY IN THE US TO PRODUCE RIFLES. PERIOD. If HK "hated" us, why do they sell USPs to civilians? How many times do we have to re-hash this on this board??? +eleven billion ....but, but HK should sell a UMP to us. Nevermind it could never be IMPORTED! Yes but with not one, but TWO factories in the US (Sterling, VA, and Columbus, GA), HK could very easily bring the tooling and molds for anything in the HK line, and start producing AMERICAN made HK rifles and carbines.

It is my understanding that HK does not have a factory here. Why would they want to come build a US factory for civilian firearms when they have no major military contract for rifles? To them they see it as a risk to build a factory here simply to produce civilian rifles or carbines, that with a simple change in regulation could be banned. Or am I crazy?

Can you read?

Can you?  Or perhaps I need to explain what a facility is?  The word facility is not a synonym for factory.  They don't need a factory to assemble import kits, just a place where monkeys can install American made parts.  

You can't compare Glock or EAA to HK. Glock imports pistols. BFD, so does HK. EAA imported Saigas, which are NOT BANNED. The HK equivalent, the USC and SL8, sold so poorly that they were discontinued.

I can compare whatever I choose because there are similarities.  Glock goes through a lot to get their pistols imported legally (like putting on cheap target sights which are then removed, and other stuff). They then modify them to be sold here.  It's why there's no import of their 380.  So, even Glock has hurdles.  They get around them.  HK could too but doesn't.

Try again.  As I said, what's the next excuse going to be?

Quoted: Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO.

Precisely.  I love my H&K USP.

Quoted: Quoted: As many have said before, it takes lots of money for European manufacturers to come to America to set up shop simply to make non-LEO firearms. They are taking a big gamble that a AWB of some sort won't pass, and if it does they'll have to make neutered firearms that no one wants. ie, HK has been burned on this. You mean like on their current models?  How many people are paying $2k+++ on MP5's from over a decade old?  Who's paying $$1200 for the USC?  Weren't they doing well selling them?  YUP! ANd whats the profit margin on a plastic gun?  VERY HIGH.  So you make a UMP 9mm for $100 (if that) and resell for $1200-1600.  Buyers will line up in the streets.

Uh, try about $2500.00 there buddy:



And yes I agree, HK is very stupid.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. You may be the only person in here who thinks this way, IMO. Precisely.  I love my H&K USP.

My HK USP .45 T is ridiculously accurate.  I love the trigger, very light and crisp.  The gun is as solidly built as any modern gun can be when constructed from polymer.  It fits my hand perfectly, I'm 6', 190.  I love that gun!

Sorry for the hijack.

But yes.  It does piss me off when the civilian market seems to ignored if not outright looked upon with contempt by gun-makers.  

I am hoping the protection from lawsuits that congress finally was able to pass will help to remedy this.

Quoted: Can you read? Can you?  Or perhaps I need to explain what a facility is?  The word facility is not a synonym for factory.  They don't need a factory to assemble import kits, just a place where monkeys can install American made parts.

So who is supposed to manufacter the required US parts for the guns and in which factory?

GUNS SUCK!  F YOU ALL!!

I'm gonna throw all my guns in the trash compactor and take up underwater basket weaving.

Actually....I was kinda unimpressed when we demo'd UMPs.  The UMP .45 was the only one that was worth a damn IMHO.

We elected to stick with our MP5/40s.

But I'd really LOVE to be able to buy AUGs, 94s, FNCs etc etc etc.  A 94 in 10mm would warm the cockles of my heart.  Fucking import ban.



Sheep

So who is supposed to manufacter the required US parts for the guns and in which factory?

There are a few folks that already do that (bobcat and vector).  Or any machine shop could be contracted for it.

Quoted: So who is supposed to manufacter the required US parts for the guns and in which factory? There are a few folks that already do that (bobcat and vector).  Or any machine shop could be contracted for it.

Sorry buddy but HK is not going to sub out parts to some small parts shop. There is too much pride. Same reason the Swiss part of Sig would not allow Sigarms to the manufacturing of the 551/2 out of their hands and careful watch.

Another excuse!  Sig made it work.  Then, to all the HK defenders, answer this simple question:

Is it possible for H&K to sell civilian versions of their rifles in the US?

If no, why?

If yes, why haven't they?

Quoted: Another excuse!  Sig made it work.  Then, to all the HK defenders, answer this simple question: Is it possible for H&K to sell civilian versions of their rifles in the US? If no, why? If yes, why haven't they?

Would you be happy if you found out that your Rolex was made by Sieko? Its not an excuse, its just facts. In Switzerland and Germany you can buy a 551/2, proof that they are not anti-citizen.

HK:
HK DOESN NOT HAVE A MANUFACTURING FACILITY IN THE USA!!!! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. IT HAS BEEN STATED 1000 TIMES AND YOU JUST DO NOT GET IT.  

They are not going to build a $20 million dollar factory just so Chuck Shumer can pass a bill that will ban the major product they make there. Now if HK had gotten the XM-8 contract, things would be different. You have to remember that up until 1989 HK sold as many rifles they could make until the import ban. They were not ant-civilian, they just saw that is was no point in bastardizing an HK rifle. Why? Because it would not be a real HK.

Sometimes I feel like people just like to hear themselves bitch.

Quoted: There is one HK gun worth the price of admission. The HK P7 series. The rest is over priced boat anchor garbage. That's just silly   Not interested in their take on what a rifle should be, ergonomics suck.  SUBJECTIVE Not interested in the price of admission either, I can afford it but I choose the platform with better ergonomics and better aftermarket support. I've received great support over the years. Owned an HK USP for a time as well, other than being rugged it was the worst gun I've ever owned in terms of accuracy, I have four USP tack drivers. perhaps a bit more trigger time is what you need. craptacular trigger, and the way it pointed. Once again, SUBJECTIVE. With exception of the P7 series, fuck HK.

Sounds like you had a bad run in with a gun store or H&K empolyee. Sour grapes?

Quoted: HK DOESN NOT HAVE A MANUFACTURING FACILITY IN THE USA!!!! JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. IT HAS BEEN STATED 1000 TIMES AND YOU JUST DO NOT GET IT.

It's not that I don't get it.  It's that I don't buy it.  Others make it work and they can too.  Repeating that canard isn't really enforcing your point.

They are not going to build a $20 million dollar factory just so Chuck Shumer can pass a bill that will ban the major product they make there. Now if HK had gotten the XM-8 contract, things would be different. You have to remember that up until 1989 HK sold as many rifles they could make until the import ban. They were not ant-civilian, they just saw that is was no point in bastardizing an HK rifle. Why? Because it would not be a real HK.

Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about it but I don't buy that.  They can make it work with some effort and a premium on the price, which folks would pay.  I would.  I'd snatch up a civie Xm-8 and G-36.  And it'd be as much of an HK as a [pick your brand that uses FN parts] is an AR.

We'll just have to disagree.

And I do understand that there are some impediments in their way but they can get around them with a bit of work, like others have done.

Quoted: So who is supposed to manufacter the required US parts for the guns and in which factory? There are a few folks that already do that (bobcat and vector).  Or any machine shop could be contracted for it.

You are PRICELESS!

Do you really think HK is going to buy parts from TODD BAILEY so they can make their stuff 922(r) compliant???

Holy fuck!

Quoted: GUNS SUCK!  F YOU ALL!! I'm gonna throw all my guns in the trash compactor and take up underwater basket weaving.

Ha ha ha.

Quoted: Sounds like you had a bad run in with a gun store or H&K empolyee. Sour grapes?

No, I bought the gun new from a friend of mine who was an FFL.  

Whatever "hype" that was associated with the HK USP came from a bunch of gun magazines sucking the cock of HK trying to push it off as the greatest gun ever.

Me being a dumb 21 year old kid, saving and planning for nearly 2 years for the day he turned 21 so that he could buy his first handguns, fell for the gun magazine bullshit hook line and sinker.

I should have been a smarter consumer and gotten some serious familiarization with the gun to see if I would have liked it.    Wound up buying it on reputation alone.   Got to learn a lesson the hardway with the USP.

I kept that HK USP for a good 2 years trying to mold myself to the way the gun shot.

In the end, I sold it because I could perform better with my Para Ordinance P14 as well as an old 38/44 Outdoorsman revolver that I have been shooting for years.    I can fire a S&W revolver dead nuts in double action thanks to having fired thousands of rounds through them.

The fact that I could get on target faster with the revolver and land shots on target faster with the revolver is what finally convinced me to sell the USP.    10 rounds from the USP didn't mean jack shit if I had to fight the gun constantly.

I have shot 3 gun matches, the primary reason why I bought a Para Ordinance P14 along with several 14 round mags(back when Para Ordinance actually built a gun that was reliable).     The P14 presented faster, was more accurate for me, trigger was light years better, and when considering those various factors it was stupid to keep the USP.

HK may be great for some but I fucking hate them.   They fight me at every turn, and considering that 700 dollars for a gun that doesn't work for you, it might as well be garbage.    And no USP is worth that kind of money.

Have also had my hands on a G36 at a local SWAT competition back a few years ago when the G36 was all the rage.    Wasn't very impressed with them either, felt like the gun was a confounded cluster fuck after being so familiar and comfortable with the AR15 family.


And that's what I am getting to in a round about way, guns are a fickle thing after you have become accustomed to something.

Don't go getting accustomed to one kind of gun and then fuck things up for yourself by trying to shoot another handgun.    You'll screw up muscle memory and be fighting the gun at every turn.

Not sure where the quote actually comes from but there is some saying to the effect of a person being lucky if they should master a handgun in their lifetime, and should you want to master a handgun don't go fucking things up by trying to own and shoot a wide variety of handguns.   Pick one maybe two types and stick to it.

I am firmly rooted to 2 handguns now, 1911s and N-frame S&Ws.

Nothing anyone says in this thread will be enough to convince me that an HK USP is worth 700-750 dollars.   NO WAY IN HELL.    500 on the low side and 600 on the high side, maybe.    

Not interested in the price of admission either, I can afford it but I choose the platform with better ergonomics and better aftermarket support. I've received great support over the years.

You took this out of context.

What I mean to say, if with respect to HK rifles there is no way I am going to buy an HK rifle and be forced to use predominantly HK manufactured accesories to maintain and keep the weapon running.

Look at the AR15 and how it is virtually the small block chevy of the gun world.   I think the AR15 has over taken, or in stiff competition to,  the 1911 in terms of aftermarket support and accesories.

When an AR15 goes down, it's a simple matter of rebuilding with parts from any number of suppliers.    Break something on the HK and enjoy paying the prices associated with replacement parts for anything HK.

Combine the above with the fact that the AR15 in most instances has better ergonomics and I do not see why HK has the popularity it does.

Quoted: We'll just have to disagree.

Yep