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Posted: 2/8/2006 1:44:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 1:45:24 PM EDT by bastiat]
http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/feb06/390715.asp?format=print


Posted: Feb. 7, 2006

Town of Trenton - A Town of Trenton couple have filed complaints with the state Department of Natural Resources and the Washington County Sheriff's Department alleging that an overzealous conservation warden entered their home Jan. 20 and startled the partially clad mother as she was breast-feeding her 3-month-old son in their living room.

Terrie Stangl says DNR Warden Rick Wolff entered the home through a side door around 8:30 p.m. and announced that he was looking for whoever was driving a snowmobile down the middle of Washington Drive in front of the Stangls' 1868 farmstead.

"I stood up and there he was standing in the entryway, just a couple feet from where I was breast-feeding. There was no doorbell or knock," Terrie Stangl said. "It was like the gestapo. He just came in and took over."

Wolff, a 28-year veteran with the DNR, declined to comment, saying, "We're still doing reports. I'm not at liberty to say anything at this point in time."

Wolff's supervisor, Ron Preder, said he twice talked to Terrie Stangl and to Wolff after the incident.

At first, Preder said he thought the incident was a "perception issue" and directed Wolff to telephone the Stangls to patch things up, which Wolff did.

Terrie Stangl said Wolff apologized over the phone and thought that was the end of it, too, until the Stangls received in the mail not a written apology, as they had requested, but a citation for $186 and a note from Wolff that read, "If any questions, call me, Rick."

Preder on Monday said Wolff told him that Wolff had knocked on the door, that a daughter opened the door and that he entered the house only after the girl went to fetch her mother.

On Tuesday, after he had visited the Stangl house, Preder said that Terrie Stangl's complaint "may have some merit."

"I need to do some work more work on this, specifically talking to my employee," Preder said.

Preder said he is still investigating the incident and will forward his findings to his superiors, who will determine what, if any, discipline is required.
Husband had used snowmobile

The man Wolff was looking for was, indeed, Frank Stangl, the Stangls later admitted to Wolff. Frank Stangl had taken three of the couple's five children snowmobiling just minutes before Wolff entered the home, and headed up Washington Drive to his brother's nearby house, where there is a snowmobile trail.

Terrie stayed home with the couple's 9-year-old daughter and her nursing son when Wolff, she alleges, opened the side door, hitting the 9-year-old in the forehead, and announced his presence.

Stangl tried to cover herself with her son while she attempted to pull her cardigan sweater over herself, she said.

" 'Why don't you step outside and wait for my husband?' " she said she told Wolff.

She also said Wolff told her, "I was in your barn" and had noticed that the family's snowmobiles were gone.

"We're law-abiding people," she said. "We don't deserve to be treated like we have a meth lab in our barn. It's surreal."


The next day, the Stangls complained to the Sheriff's Department and to the DNR.

Washington County Sheriff's Capt. Dale Schmidt said a deputy interviewed Terrie Stangl the day after the incident and that a report is on file.

"Right now, it's not something we would do anything with," Schmidt said. Complaints against police officers are usually handled by the agency for which the officer works, in this case the DNR, he said.

Frank Stangl has been cited for illegal snowmobile operation on a highway, which carries a fine of $186. Terrie Stangl said her husband will not contest the citation.

"We want a sincere written apology. Not a sticky note saying 'Call me if you have questions,' " Terrie Stangl said.

"We have no problem paying the citation. This is about protocol, and I think he should be held accountable."

Law enforcement officers, such as DNR wardens, are allowed to enter buildings uninvited and without search warrants in only a few circumstances, such as when a crime is in the process of being committed or lives are at risk, Preder said.

In this case, "there was certainly a reason to make contact at the house," but not to enter the house without permission, Preder said.

"If we find that the warden entered the house without knocking, that would be inappropriate," Preder said, adding that such an action would be "out of character" for Wolff.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:49:51 PM EDT
What about the dog???
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:55:29 PM EDT
Chalk up another Douche bag officer going over board!All because some guy is taking his kids snowmobiling and get s on the road going to a trail.

What a Fuc*&^@! JOke!

Go find some real criminals you Jackass!
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:56:16 PM EDT
I wouldn't pay the ticket. And lock your door.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 1:58:12 PM EDT
I would of shot him if he came in my home
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:46:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
I would of have shot him if he came in my home

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:58:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 3:00:27 PM EDT by Busch308]
I don't care if you are a cop, the FBI or the freakin' Pope, if you walk into my home uninvited w/o a warrant you will have a gun pointed at you. You will go on the ground and be handcuffed and searched. When I'm done I'll call the police and make sure you are charged with burgalry. If he's a local cop and his buddys won't charge him, I'll make it a citizen's arrest and march his ass down to the local sheriff's office or judge or whoever. Of course that's all assuming his buddies don't tackle me and arrest me for armed assault.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:58:28 PM EDT
He'd have been proned out, disarmed and waited for competent cops to come and verify his identity if he came to my house. Now, if he came to the door and knocked he might get some respect.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 2:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 3:04:03 PM EDT by BangStick1]

Originally Posted By Jm03:
Chalk up another Douche bag officer going over board!All because some guy is taking his kids snowmobiling and get s on the road going to a trail.

What a Fuc*&^@! JOke!

Go find some real criminals you Jackass!




You don't understand. This is how a criminal gets his career started.

First, it is riding snowmobiles in the street; before long, he is raping a plundering the community.

This budding criminal must have the full weight of the law brought down upon him to stop him in his tracks.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:09:28 PM EDT
I've never understood why many state DNR officers believe that they don't need a warrant to search. A good friend of mine was one for many years, and he used to brag about the things he got away with. He was a fellow Korean vet and otherwise an all-around great guy, but he just had no respect for private property when he was working. Not once did he ever get in trouble for his actions. I was always afraid he'd get shot for breaking into someone's house unannounced or for tearing-up someone's car without reason.z
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:19:13 PM EDT
When I moved here to TX I was told by the locals that the game warden could come and search my home whenever he feels like it to see if I had been poaching. Not just one but several people have told me this. My feelings are that if you can't articulate a reason well enough to get a warrant then you have no business coming into my home. Anyone know if this is true?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:23:38 PM EDT
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:26:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.



Especially in this fucking state.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:28:37 PM EDT
The ODNR Game Warden when I was Growing up in Southeast Ohio was notorious for that shit. I saw him call a guys boss for fishing on the job. Dude had a liscence but not on him and was casting alond the road at a resiviour. You get the ticket then mail it in with a copy of the liscence. BUT NOOOOO he called the number on the side of the truck.

Game Wardens can be real pricks.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:29:38 PM EDT
That's a damn good way to get shot.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:30:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 3:33:12 PM EDT by danpass]
Draw down and disarm that sucker.


Trespass is trespass . How does one know he's for real anyway .
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:30:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:34:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:39:57 PM EDT
I would have racked the shotgun, scaring him into running.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:44:02 PM EDT
Snowmobile terrorists get what they deserve.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:51:01 PM EDT
But the snowmobile is such a great tool for late night winter poaching...
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:51:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
He'd have been proned out, disarmed and waited for competent cops to come and verify his identity if he came to my house. Now, if he came to the door and knocked he might get some respect.



+1

If you are legit, knocking will be easy and you will have my respect. Simply having a badge doesn't carry weight.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:52:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




I agree.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:54:50 PM EDT
Didnt a cop in Florida get shot for doing that just a few weeks back?
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 3:58:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 4:02:59 PM EDT by SteelonSteel]

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




Yes, it's simple english but the ones who interpret it are the courts, the federal courts have already ruled on this.......and yes they allowed the game wardens this latitude"

And did he knock? or get waved/ gestured in by the daughter of the house? Doesn't seem like most people would walk right in to a house short of a porch to knock on a visible inner door. It's not like it was a domestic violence call or someone was screaming bloody murder.

Got to wonder what the whole story is
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:00:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
But the snowmobile is such a great tool for late night winter poaching...



It is.


Its so quiet and stealthy.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:00:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




Yes, it's simple english but the one's who interpret it are the courts, the federal courts have already ruled on this.......and yes they allowed the game wardens this latitude"



Maybe I'm too practical but there doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:06:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 4:07:45 PM EDT by SteelonSteel]

Originally Posted By danpass:

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.





Yes, it's simple english but the one's who interpret it are the courts, the federal courts have already ruled on this.......and yes they allowed the game wardens this latitude"



Maybe I'm too practical but there doesn't seem to be much room for interpretation.



Hey I'm a strict constitutionalist, if it were up to me i'd dismantle just about everything that is hinging on the "to promote the general welfare" clause. Welfare, goodbye, social security, bye, farm supports, good bye, tax breaks for industry, buh bye, mid nite basketball, good nite, full time pay for senators and congressmen, bye bye, do it in 4 months and quit your whining.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 4:08:31 PM EDT by A_Free_Man]
Busch308 posted:

When I moved here to TX I was told by the locals that the game warden could come and search my home whenever he feels like it to see if I had been poaching. Not just one but several people have told me this. My feelings are that if you can't articulate a reason well enough to get a warrant then you have no business coming into my home. Anyone know if this is true?

Bama-Shooter replied:

Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.


If it makes you guys feel any better, I understand they have to replace Texas game wardens at a higher than normal rate.


Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:14:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By entropy:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
I would of have shot him if he came in my home





+1

Would've been a job opening up there, IMO.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:17:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.




Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.




Yes, it's simple english but the ones who interpret it are the courts, the federal courts have already ruled on this.......and yes they allowed the game wardens this latitude"

And did he knock? or get waved/ gestured in by the daughter of the house? Doesn't seem like most people would walk right in to a house short of a porch to knock on a visible inner door. It's not like it was a domestic violence call or someone was screaming bloody murder.

Got to wonder what the whole story is



From the original post:

Originally Posted By bastiat:
She also said Wolff told her, "I was in your barn" and had noticed that the family's snowmobiles were gone.




I take it as the GW entered the barn without permission.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:17:40 PM EDT
I was visited uppon by a game warden once. I was bump firing a daewoo dr200, and A few of my friends were firing fast too, and we were on private property, and all of a sudden it is like the dukes of hazzard around us.. A game warden and three sherrifs cars....All tacked out with their ars, and xscoped rifles... We were lik OOOOOshit.. But when we laid our weapons down, and they saw we were all leagal we were appologised to. It is geting bad out there. I am not shure where it stops for the game wardens. I think they will have to have a mini Waco for them to wake up.

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:24:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
I would of shot him if he came in my home



if he was not in uniform I would shoot, if in uniform he would be taken at gunpoint nd arrested for breaking/entering/tresspass whatever and cuffed and driven to the PD/.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:25:46 PM EDT
I have to wonder if game wardens have Police Science degrees like regular cops or if there is some "other" training process. FWIW, I don't think they have any greater search and seizure powers than cops. How could they under the law?

I have no personal experiece with WI game wardens. My brother-in-laws do. They got busted once and ended up getting off because of faulty arrest and search.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:28:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1IV:
I was visited uppon by a game warden once. I was bump firing a daewoo dr200, and A few of my friends were firing fast too, and we were on private property, and all of a sudden it is like the dukes of hazzard around us.. A game warden and three sherrifs cars....All tacked out with their ars, and xscoped rifles... We were lik OOOOOshit.. But when we laid our weapons down, and they saw we were all leagal we were appologised to. It is geting bad out there. I am not shure where it stops for the game wardens. I think they will have to have a mini Waco for them to wake up.




This shit pisses me off so bad everytime I read it that I want to scream!

Are you in a state where Class 3 is legal?

Are you on private property or a range/location that allows Class 3?

If the answer to both is "yes" then IT'S NO ONE'S FUCKING BUSINESS HOW OR WHAT YOU'RE SHOOTING. Cops need to go catch some criminals rather than play junior BATFE wanna-bees.

I swear, there must be one of these posted every month since I've been here.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:33:20 PM EDT
I normally give wardens much more respect than Joe snuffy LEO, only because they typically can't call for backup when we're both 5 miles into the woods and we're both armed. Respect is given and expected. With that said, that mother should have proned his ass and called the cops. He's lucky to not be dead.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 4:58:20 PM EDT
She could have gave him a tit shot in a couple of ways. When my 'ol lady was nursing, she could have squirted across the room! Blind 'em, kick to the balls and kneecap, call 911. She was probably too stunned to do anything though.
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 5:24:51 PM EDT
Game wardens in Texas, can search without a warrant with the exact same reasons any LEO can. Probable cause. If they don't have PC and you tell them, "I want my lawyer" or "this interview is over", oh they get pissed and threaten you but, they don't do shit........they can't and they know it. The problem is most people give these guys permission.

Game Wardens are not your friends, they don't care about protecting a natural resource. Their one concern is producing revenue, that is how their bosses know they are working, by writing tickets.

It is total BULSHIT that they are given any EXTRA latitude. All you need if they take that latitude, is be willing to fight their ass in court. Expect delays that cost you lots of cash in lawyers fees and it will end up costing more than the fine.

[disclaimer] i have NEVER had a ticket from a GW. (99% of my contacts with GW have been positive)
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:13:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By entropy:

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:
I would of have shot him if he came in my home




ok Mr nazi, I would have shot him
Link Posted: 2/8/2006 6:34:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 6:35:34 PM EDT by Noname]
The warden was probably worried that the lactating perp would try to flush the snowmobile down the toilet. He had to make a split second decision...

Link Posted: 2/8/2006 9:34:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2006 9:34:35 PM EDT by Johninaustin]
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Busch308 posted:

When I moved here to TX I was told by the locals that the game warden could come and search my home whenever he feels like it to see if I had been poaching. Not just one but several people have told me this. My feelings are that if you can't articulate a reason well enough to get a warrant then you have no business coming into my home. Anyone know if this is true?

Bama-Shooter replied:

Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.


If it makes you guys feel any better, I understand they have to replace Texas game wardens at a higher than normal rate.




Game Wardens in Texas need warrants just like everyone else to enter a residence. (there are exceptions, but none are game warden specific). As for the "higher than normal rate" Game Warden is one of the most stable LE jobs going. Pretty much the only openings come from retirements.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:41:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By diesel1:
I have to wonder if game wardens have Police Science degrees like regular cops or if there is some "other" training process. FWIW, I don't think they have any greater search and seizure powers than cops. How could they under the law?

I have no personal experiece with WI game wardens. My brother-in-laws do. They got busted once and ended up getting off because of faulty arrest and search.



Around here (since yer from WI too) they go to basicly an "academy"just like cops only it deals with the game regs and laws and some other shit but basicly no most don't have police science degrees or criminology degrees. they do cover some LE related stuff from what i'm told(former co-worker is a part time warden) but not as much as LEOs get. Remeber thier main thing is enforcing game regs and laws.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 5:50:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Game wardens are given a much wider discreation than a regular LEO.


Are you saying they destroy more things than other LEOs?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:19:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Busch308:
When I moved here to TX I was told by the locals that the game warden could come and search my home whenever he feels like it to see if I had been poaching. Not just one but several people have told me this. My feelings are that if you can't articulate a reason well enough to get a warrant then you have no business coming into my home. Anyone know if this is true?




Total BS. LEGALLY they cannot do that. However, if they have been getting away with it for long enough (becasue nobody will stand up to them) then the practice becomes "normal." Scary thought.

CMOS
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 6:37:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2006 6:38:46 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]

Originally Posted By bastiat:
Terrie stayed home with the couple's 9-year-old daughter and her nursing son when Wolff, she alleges, opened the side door, hitting the 9-year-old in the forehead, and announced his presence.

Stangl tried to cover herself with her son while she attempted to pull her cardigan sweater over herself, she said.



Terrie Stangl said Wolff apologized over the phone and thought that was the end of it, too, until the Stangls received in the mail not a written apology, as they had requested, but a citation for $186 and a note from Wolff that read, "If any questions, call me, Rick."

guess he liked what he saw!

what about the policy of "hot pursuit"? wouldn't that be a justification for entering unannounced? well, not "justification" but a legit (barely) excuse?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:14:12 AM EDT
I had an incident a few years ago that really pissed me off.
Every year, the DNR puts out a snowmobile trail in my county.
Property owners are reinbursed by the state to allow the trail thru their property.
One stipulation is that it has to be so many feet from any houses, so the trail has had problems because of all the new houses going up around me.
The money isn't much, but the snowmobilers like it, so I let them ride thru my woods.
So, we get hit a real big snow and I go out with my snowblower to break open a path to my mailbox, which goes right across the trail.
I'm just about done when here comes Mr. Ranger tooling up on his sled.
He is out doing his thing, ticketing sledders for no registration, speeding and such.
He comes up to me and says "What are you doing?".
I tell him I'm trying to get a path to my mailbox. The snow is over my knees and I don't want to walk along the road to get to the mailbox.
He then goes JBT on me and tells me how he is going to ticket me for destroying the trail and driving a non registered vehicle on the trail.
I try to explain that a 36" path across the trail isn't "destroying" the trail and that the groomer will just pack this area down when it comes thru later on.
He then pulls his ticket book out and asks for my license.
As I am getting into my bibs to get my wallet out, I tell him "I hope you enjoy the trail this year, because next year it won't exist".
He then gets real defensive and asks what I meant by that.
I finally clue him in that if he wants to give me a ticket, that's fine. I'll see him in court and fight it. I might loose. Oh well.
But I'll be dammed if I let this trail run thru my property anymore and if he looks around, my property is the only piece of property that will allow the snowmobiles thru for 5 miles in either way.
Too many houses have built up and the local club that maintains the trail has told me many times that if it wasn't for my woods, they would be really screwed to put the trail thru.
They will have to double back about 5 miles, jog west and figure out a new way to get north thru all the houses.
So, I tell him to get on with it and give me the ticket and be on your way.

He put his little book away, starts up the sled and drives away.
Haven't seen him since.
And I still blow a path to my mailbox every year it snows.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:28:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
He'd have been proned out, disarmed and waited for competent cops to come and verify his identity if he came to my house. Now, if he came to the door and knocked he might get some respect.



He says he did knock and the daughter opened the door. If the husband did not break the law by riding down the street on a snowmobile this entire incident would not have happened. But I guess it is always just easier to blame the cops.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:30:11 AM EDT
Unreal Shadowsabre. Just unreal.


Good for you for standing up to him.


CMOS
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:40:35 AM EDT
I guess it only takes one bad one to ruin the bunch.
I see others driving down the trail and they wave and seem nice, but I just don't know what the one's problem was.
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:45:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
He'd have been proned out, disarmed and waited for competent cops to come and verify his identity if he came to my house. Now, if he came to the door and knocked he might get some respect.



He says he did knock and the daughter opened the door. If the husband did not break the law by riding down the street on a snowmobile this entire incident would not have happened. But I guess it is always just easier to blame the cops.



Since when does a child have legal authority to submit a household to entry or search?
Link Posted: 2/9/2006 7:45:27 AM EDT
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