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Posted: 8/10/2001 4:36:08 PM EDT
Guy I know for over thirty years has been complaining all week about chest pain and radiating into his arms. I've been after him all week to go to the hospital and he calls me this AM and says let's go. Well he starts going on me about halfway there - in the middle of NOWHERE. No cell phone coverage, no houses, NOTHING. What do you do? Stop and do CPR and hope someone comes along or put the pedal to the metal? I made 95 most of the way there and he's DOA. I feel like crap. He's retired military intelligence and about 5 years ago he moved out here with me till he could find a place. His Asian wife put the make on me in a pretty unbeleivable way and I never told him. Now she won't hardly speak to me. Well, he owed me over 12 grand and was gonna start paying on it in 2 months when his bankruptcy was paid off. QUESTION 1 - should I have told him his wife is a whore? 2 - should I try to get her to settle up after things settle down and she gets his LARGE life insurance policies? Man, nobody has tomorrow promised to him. 3 - should I have stopped and tried CPR? I guess that's one that'll always get me.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:57:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:57:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:58:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:05:09 PM EDT
Yes, tell his whore wife that you demand payback. And by this I mean money. Not her services. I'm pretty sure it's legal to collect from the surviving spouse. Was she mail order or something?
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:12:26 PM EDT
Good guess - nothing in writing. She wasn't mailorder, I know guys who have mail order wives and some of them are actually pretty decent. She was a STRIPPER with 2 kids he met in Thailand. He WORSHIPPED the ground she walked on. In most everything he was COMPLETELY squared away but he was lost when it came to her.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:13:40 PM EDT
Well, I suppose there's a [b]lot[/b] you should have told him, but it's a tad bit late now. My answers, in a nutshell, are: Question 1. Yes and Hell, yes, he's your friend of over thirty years! Question 2. Yes, but read on. Question 3. No, you did the right thing. If you had decided to stop and do the CPR, that would have been the right thing too! Question 1. If he knew his wife was putting the make on you, he might have changed the beneficiary of those LARGE life insurance policies to someone who gave a damn about him! I say this assuming you are totally convinced that you were having the make put on you! Question 2. I'm assuming that Montana is the location where any estate proceeding would be filed on behalf of your friend. You should consider the following matters prior to deciding whether to make a claim against your buddy's estate, or not: Besides the LARGE insurance policies, what sort of properties did your friend own? A little or a lot? Does he have any surviving children by this woman or by a previous wife? Are any of these children a minor? Do you know if the LARGE insurance policies are made out to his wife, or to his estate? Did he leave a will? Tell us more about this [b]BANKRUPTCY[/b] case that he was involved in? Was it a Chapter 7 or a Chapter 13 Case? This is extremely important for you to consider because, depending upon when you loaned him the $12,000.00, your claim may have been extinquished by discharge in bankruptcy! But since you mentioned that his [b]BANKRUPTCY[/b] was in the process of being paid off, I am led to believe that it was a Chapter 13 Case, which 'dies' with the Debtor, so no discharge of debts, such as yours, is granted. Question 3. You were faced with a difficult decision on an emergency basis, not of your own making. I believe that ANY DECISION you make under such circumstances is the correct one! Or at least a decision that no one can fault you on UNLESS THEY WERE THERE AND FACED WITH THE SAME EMERGENCY SITUATION AND SET OF FACTS. Tell us more of your dearly departed friend's finances. Eric The(LegalBeagle)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:31:21 PM EDT
Sorry for your loss. I've lost several friends in the last year myself. The more you love them, the more it hurts. Yes, tell her about the money. She's a big girl and now faces the business of it as well as the ins. money. As for the CPR, don't beat yourself up too badly. You can't do that and drive at the same time. You did the best you could in a lousy situation. I'm sure your friend knows that, and appriciated your being there for him. Also, one thing to think about. In some states, if you start CPR and stop before the EMT gets there, you can be held responsible because you start and then stop before being told to stop by a professional. Good luck, and once again, sorry about your friend.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:34:44 PM EDT
If your friend had a good life insurance policy, hell yes ask her for the money. Don't be surprised if she won't cough it up though. Maybe consult a lawyer and see if you can get it back for less than $12k.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 5:55:20 PM EDT
Post from flasht -
Good guess - nothing in writing.
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Uh-oh! I guess this is where I get to explain the 'Dead Man's Statutes' and 'Parol Evidence Rule.' These acts, which are probably in force in Montana, basically say that 'oral testimony cannot be used to establish the claim of an interested person against the decedant.' In other words there must be some written evidence of the debt! Did you loan the money to your friend by use of a check? If so, the cancelled check is a good enough foundation for you to testify what the purpose of the check was - to make a loan. Did you go withdraw money in cash from your bank in order to loan your friend the $12K? If so, that may be proved by sufficient evidence. But if it's only your word..... I sincerely believe that I loaned your friend some money as well - see how easy that would be for ANYONE to say! Eric The(Let'sHearSomeMore,[u]If[/u]YouWishToGoOn)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:01:28 PM EDT
If he was your friend, then you didn't loan him money, you gave him money. Any other way to do it causes hard feelings, if he is your friend it would have gotten paid back, if he was a dick, he would have welched on you. If he worshipped the ground his wife walked on, let the money go, and consider it your final tribute to your friend, do something good for his wife. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but it is the way I would handle it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:04:05 PM EDT
Eric, are you an attorney? Yeah, it was Chapter 13 and he ALMOST paid it off. He didn't own much tho, everything he had went to her green-haired punk teenaged son who despised him. I really don't know about a will and basically only know that he adopted her kids, never having any of his own, and really struggled financially because of it. The thing is, I really don't think he would have beleived me about his wife (and yes, it couldn't have been MORE obvious). The thing that torques me is I KNOW that it's gonna be party time at his place now.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:31:06 PM EDT
I'll only address the CPR question, don't beat yourself up over it you made the right decision. I know how bad it can make you feel to lose someone, I did CPR on a guy at work for 15 min. until the EMT's got there, he was DOA at the hospital. I was told by the doctor later that he would have died if he had the heart attack in the hospital because it blew out one of the main valves in his heart. This doesn't mean I don't think CPR works because I do, I just think that in your situation the best thing to do was to try to get to the hospital as soon as possible. You did the right thing, that's all you can do.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:38:02 PM EDT
Post from flasht -
Eric, are you an attorney?
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Let's just say I play one in real life.[:D]
Yeah, it was Chapter 13 and he ALMOST paid it off.
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In Chapter 13s, 'almost' doesn't count. If he died before the final Chapter 13 payment was made, the case (and any possible discharge of your debt) dies with him. Was it a joint Chapter 13 with that 'dragon lady' wife of his, as a joint Debtor?
He didn't own much tho, everything he had went to her green-haired punk teenaged son who despised him. I really don't know about a will and basically only know that he adopted her kids, never having any of his own, and really struggled financially because of it.
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Well, if the insurance beneficiary is his wife, and not his estate, and he has no other assets to speak of, then you must determine if there is any way you can compel the wife to repay his lawful debt to you, from the insurance proceeds. Have you given any thought to my previous post about [b]written evidence[/b] of your loan to your friend? Do you think that such evidence is out there, or are we talking about loans made over the five years he was in Montana with you, paid to him in cash, a little bit at a time, in the aggregate amount of $12,000.00? If the latter, then you just may be SOL! Let me know. Eric The(NowMaybeYouShouldHaveToldHim,Huh?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:54:10 PM EDT
Neither a lender nor a borrower be, for oft one loses both the loan and the friend. Nevertheless, dying deep in debt's always been an aspiration of mine. The ultimate revenge!
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 6:58:29 PM EDT
I'm SOL. Once was for $5000, but it was in cash and my small bank is fairly used to me coming in for chunks of cash. I think HEILO is right, I know he wouldn't want me fighting with his wife or taking her to court. The only hard feelings we EVER had was when I BEGGED him not to marry her. Thanks for all the advice - it's funny how sitting here typing away at a keyboard and getting responses seems to help. He was someone I always could rely on and I always knew my 6 was covered.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 7:07:26 PM EDT
Don't second-guess your decision to rush him to the hospital. If you stopped and performed CPR with no other medical intervention he would have died anyway. You acted properly under the circumstances. As far as the debt is concerned I think that has been answered.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 7:23:46 PM EDT
Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend, but CPR wouldn't have helped. Your buddy would have only lived a couple of minutes longer with CPR and would have eventually suffered from massive brain damage due to lack of oxygen. If EMTs were present, they could have applied advanced techniques and administered oxygen.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 7:26:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2001 7:30:46 PM EDT by fyrftr]
Posted by Buzzworm: As for the CPR, don't beat yourself up too badly. You can't do that and drive at the same time. You did the best you could in a lousy situation. I'm sure your friend knows that, and appreciated your being there for him. Also, one thing to think about. In some states, if you start CPR and stop before the EMT gets there, you can be held responsible because you start and then stop before being told to stop by a professional. Good luck, and once again, sorry about your friend.
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buzzworm, I guess it may be different in some states, I don't know for sure, here in Michigan if you start CPR, you can stop when; -you are relieved by someone of equal or greater training. -the pt. recovers (rare, despite what you see on TV) -You are physically unable to continue. -medical control authority says you can stop. (not applicable in your situation) - a valid DNR (Do Not Resuscitate)order is presented to the rescuer. (again not applicable to your situation) Most states also have the 'good Samaritan law', which states that if your actions are of good intent, and are what a 'reasonable and prudent' person would do, and no 'gross misconduct' is involved, you are OK. As to the issue if you should have stopped or not, NO!! YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE STOPPED!! CPR is a tool to increase survival rates of the pt. upon arrival of definitive treatment. Be that an Emergency room or an ambulance. According to the American Heart Association, the order of things to do when someone stops breathing, is to first recognize the problem exists, then to activate the EMS system. In your situation this is getting your friend some definitive care. You are not going to help him or yourself by doing CPR on the side of the road, until a ambulance happens by, or more likely, someone with a cell phone drives by, hopefully stops and calls 911. Then the LONG wait until EMS gets there! You did the right thing, rest easy brother! Anyone considering weather or not to start CPR should consider the following from The American Heart Association's Book 'Basic Life Support, Heartsaver Guide', in Appendix 3, 'Legal and Ethical Issues' on page 74 states; "There is no instance known in which a layperson who has performed CPR has been sued successfully. Good Samaritan laws in most states specifically protect professionals and laypersons performing CPR "in good faith," Under most Good Samaritan laws, laypersons are protected if they preform CPR even if they have had no formal training. All citizens should learn to perform CPR well enough to sustain the life of the victim until professional emergency medical treatment becomes available unless such performance would pose a medical or emotional danger to themselves." I would hate to see someone with hold CPR because they are scared of getting sued. People who live in a more urban area should consider calling 911 and not driving the pt. to the ER. In more and more areas even the police are carrying AED's (Automated External Defibrillator) the machine that 'shocks' people off the bed on TV. They need Oxygen and electricity. Tim L.
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 11:03:52 PM EDT
heres my take on things 1 --if the guy worshiped the ground she walked on then he probably would NOT have believed you, and she obviously would of lied and you would be looking like that bad guy. since you tried to stop the marriage he would of looked at you as trying to break them up, and the wife might of said YOU came on to HER. NO WIN SITUATION, chances are you would of lost a friend over her. your friend has passed on, so let this issue pass on with him. 2 --you did the Right thing, your friend was the stubborn mule and decided not to go to the hospital until it was toooo late, which is what killed him. had he gone a week ago then he would be alive now, his own negligence for his health killed him. you did what everyone else would of dont -- yer in the car going, his heart gives out and you HAUL ASS. had you stopped to give CPR, then what ? you have no help with you, even if you had a cell phone and called 911, and stopped to give CPR, it would take time for the ambulance to get to you and get back to the hospital ...this takes a LOT of time, chances are he wouldnt of made it. both choices are the right thing to do, you did NOT do the wrong thing, but the outcome was bad, NOT your fault in any way. 3 --how bad you want the money back ? 90% chance she will NOT give you a penny, you will have to go to court to get it back. YOU BETTER HAVE PROOF OF THE LOAN or your SOL!!! you may think your friend doesnt want you to fight with his wife over the money, but i think he wouldnt want his wife to NOT pay you back the money they he owes you. if you got half of it back, then consider that you were the one that paid for his funeral with the other half.
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 4:02:17 AM EDT
Flasht, ANy other way to handle it will just make you feel bad about it. A frined is someone to value even after they are gone. 12k might seem like a lot of moeny, but I bet you woudl have been happy to forgive the debt to make your friend happy. Do it now, don't look back, and keep the memories of your friend good, and not clouded with how you got taken for the money. You are going to get more money in your life, but not those memories.
Link Posted: 8/11/2001 4:33:19 AM EDT
So far, nobody has answered the original question: Do you tell wife about the $$$ ? I say yes, even if he didn't owe any! That gives you an excuse to spend some, and your buddy would understand that, and would probably be looking down from heaven laughing. On the serious side, we are all sorry for your loss. The best friends I have in this world are from the shooting/hunting world. There is some sort of bond between people cut from the same cloth. I can count the really close friends ($12,000 worth) on one hand. They all are shooting buds of some sort, and worth more than $12K. If you can afford to let the money go, do so, and savor the memories of your lost friend.
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