I think this observation by Massad Ayoob is spot on - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I think this observation by Massad Ayoob is spot on (Page 2 of 2)

Posted: 2/7/2006 3:35:57 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.

Hey, he quit that crap a couple months ago. He has been playing it pretty darn straight since.
And his writing has improved as well. Less gimmicks, more facts.

Larry

I do enjoy his subject matter. At least he writes about more than the 1911.

The picture thing struck me as downright strange. At least his pictures were of him.

There is another writer(Conner?) Who's sole subject matter seemed to be pictures of his daughter demonstrating his wife's "pull up your shirt and brandish a pistol at a guy because he is walking towards a rest area bathroom" technique. This spanned several different magazines over a couple of monthes.

Posted: 2/7/2006 3:49:30 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Ayoob is full of shit... He works for a tiny dept in a low crime area, he has never been in a gunfight, he has never been in a shooting, he has never shot anyone. He's a fucking jewler.

He is good when it comes to legal issues in regards to shooting and post shooting. As for gunfighting and guns, he is full of shit. Guy never met a gun he didn't like.

If your going to look up to and/or learn from someone, be sure they have actually done the shit they are teaching/preaching...

Think most history teachers were around during the American Revolution? Does that mean they shouldn't teach it?

Sure, a primary source is always best, but they're hard to come by. Gabe Suarez has been in a gunfight, and I trust Mas's word a lot more than his. I know of at least two situations were Mas would have been more than justified in shooting a perp. He managed to avoid doing so because of his training, his awareness and his quick thinking. That is the ultimate control of the gun. That is worth more than being in a "gunfight" if you ask me. Being in a gunfight doesn't make someone more of a man, even if you think it does.

I won't dignify the rest of your post with a response because its completely ridiculous.

Posted: 2/7/2006 3:50:22 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Quoted:
whoever called it "gangster"

Care to explain why its "gangster" then, or were you just joking?

Posted: 2/7/2006 3:52:30 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Jeff writes many things about the newest latest greatest rifle and cartridge that comes and goes with the latest "FAD" and what can it do any better than say a '50s bolt action rifle in 30/06? You read in many gun rags about the latest revision of a hunting rifle in the flavor of the month that’s the best thing since sliced bread, but doesn't do a thing that the older design couldn't do just as well. But if the gun rags can't convince you to buy it, then their advertisers wouldn't have something new to sell.

Bull poopy.
I'm 33yrs old. My dad doesn't want to give up his rifles to me.
I want to shoot guns...ergo I need to go buy something.

not to comment on advertising = good reviews in a gun magazine:

there are about a million things a modern firearm in 300wsm can do better than a '50's bolt action 30-06 can. want me to list some? (I'll do it anyway)

1. Be bought NIB
a. no quality issues (99.9% of the time)
b. be better steel (both material and heat treat) and synthetic- resist the effects of weather and resulting corrosion
c. have factory support

2.Have Accuracy guarantees- depending on what you buy

3.Have been worked over by most modern gunsmiths- if you want a new barrel for your rem 700 or win70, there is probably a guy in your town that has done it 20 times. I don't know about a sporterized SMLE being worked on by many gunsmiths. Mausers, yes.

Anyhow, pretty much the best guns being made ever are right now, both factory and custom or semi-custom. Just because you don't like the gun industries slightly disguised ownership of the gun media (through advertising) doesn't mean there hasn't been vast strides in quality and efficiency of production (iow, i can get a better gun for cheaper money) in the last 50 years.

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:02:16 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.

Fortier's articles are historical as well as technical, so his pictures place the firearm in it's historical context. Your personal attack on his family relations reminds me of my JR high PE class- immature and empty male posturing. Blindly insulting the man and his wife is very bad form.

I think you're just jealous of a man better than you.
Easy there, cowboy. Nobody is going after the guy's family. Allow me to rephrase.

I find it odd that he has his picture taken in in outfits that correspond to his subject matter, historical or not. I've seen everything from Fortier in a Soviet paratroopers uniform to Fortier posing in the newest Sigtac outfit. I've seen him in a ghillie suit, when shooting on a range.

What I have not seen is any indication that Fortier's writing has any grounding in experience. Nothing in his writing indicates why he is qualified to comment on the usefulness, or lack thereof, of anything he has reviewed. So there is no confusion, I do NOT think that he should be writing half of every article as a personal history and an exhibition of his experience. I do think that he, and every other writer out there, should at least add a footnote indicating why anyone should believe anything he says.

My comment was not intended as an insult to his wife. I don't know anything about the woman, nor do I care to. What I do know is that most women frown on such things as you dressing up and having a photo shoot for a magazine. I find it surprising that someone who makes a habit of such things landed a wife. Good for him. That she will willingly participate in such things truely does amaze me. My wife would laugh me out of the house if I suggested such a thing.

I did not intend to insult anyone's family.

I also feel obligated to state that I am most certainly not jealous of David Fortier. He may well be a better man than me, but there is nothing in his writing that would indicate it. My knowledge of what works and what doesn't is based in real, verifiable experience. I have no idea of where his comes from. A quick Google search didn't shed any light on it, and I have never seen a word in print that indicates that he has any.

I too wish his articles were more about the firearm in question rather than the reviewer of the firearm. Way too much personalization there.

And IIRC his photographer is his daughter, not his wife.

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:24:21 PM EDT

[#6]

"Massage a Boob"

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:30:52 PM EDT

[#7]

Whoever said Mas was the worst gun writer obviously has never read Bradley Steiner.

Merlin

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:31:52 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.

Fortier's articles are historical as well as technical, so his pictures place the firearm in it's historical context. Your personal attack on his family relations reminds me of my JR high PE class- immature and empty male posturing. Blindly insulting the man and his wife is very bad form.

I think you're just jealous of a man better than you.

Easy there, cowboy. Nobody is going after the guy's family . Allow me to rephrase.

Re-read your comment above. How else should your comment be taken except as and inslult to both him and his wife, of which you admit you know next to nothing? Perhaps you should refrain from making comments that require you to "rephrase"

I find it odd that he has his picture taken in in outfits that correspond to his subject matter, historical or not. I've seen everything from Fortier in a Soviet paratroopers uniform to Fortier posing in the newest Sigtac outfit. I've seen him in a ghillie suit, when shooting on a range.

So what? His illustrations have something most others lack: context of use. I appreciate it, and find it benefits the articles

What I have not seen is any indication that Fortier's writing has any grounding in experience. Nothing in his writing indicates why he is qualified to comment on the usefulness, or lack thereof, of anything he has reviewed. So there is no confusion, I do NOT think that he should be writing half of every article as a personal history and an exhibition of his experience. I do think that he, and every other writer out there, should at least add a footnote indicating why anyone should believe anything he says.

Translation: What's important is a pedigree, rather than the merit of the work itself. I don't give a damn if he's a high school dropout with nothing but a gun hobby. If he has educated himself to the point where he can educate me, I value what he says. The worth is in the product itself, not his resume.

My comment was not intended as an insult to his wife. I don't know anything about the woman, nor do I care to. What I do know is that most women frown on such things as you dressing up and having a photo shoot for a magazine. I find it surprising that someone who makes a habit of such things landed a wife. Good for him. That she will willingly participate in such things truely does amaze me. My wife would laugh me out of the house if I suggested such a thing.

So it sounds like he was perhaps wiser in choosing a mate than you. I happen to find the fact that he and his wife work as a team most inspiring

I did not intend to insult anyone's family.

Intentions are irrelevent. You did. You ought to apoligize.

I also feel obligated to state that I am most certainly not jealous of David Fortier. He may well be a better man than me, but there is nothing in his writing that would indicate it. My knowledge of what works and what doesn't is based in real, verifiable experience. I have no idea of where his comes from. A quick Google search didn't shed any light on it, and I have never seen a word in print that indicates that he has any.

An appeal to ignorance does not support an argument. He at least has held and shot an FN PS90, so if you have not, I am interested in hearing him over you. That's why I read his latest article in SGN and did not ask you.

I think you are just bitching to bitch in general and don't really have anything relevent to say.

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:34:26 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
And IIRC his photographer is his daughter, not his wife.

either way, I admire the family effort.

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:34:54 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
"Massage a Boob"

Posted: 2/7/2006 4:36:40 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Ayoob is full of shit... He works for a tiny dept in a low crime area, he has never been in a gunfight, he has never been in a shooting, he has never shot anyone. He's a fucking jewler.

He is good when it comes to legal issues in regards to shooting and post shooting. As for gunfighting and guns, he is full of shit. Guy never met a gun he didn't like.

If your going to look up to and/or learn from someone, be sure they have actually done the shit they are teaching/preaching...

Think most history teachers were around during the American Revolution? Does that mean they shouldn't teach it?

Sure, a primary source is always best, but they're hard to come by. Gabe Suarez has been in a gunfight, and I trust Mas's word a lot more than his. I know of at least two situations were Mas would have been more than justified in shooting a perp. He managed to avoid doing so because of his training, his awareness and his quick thinking. That is the ultimate control of the gun. That is worth more than being in a "gunfight" if you ask me. Being in a gunfight doesn't make someone more of a man, even if you think it does.

I won't dignify the rest of your post with a response because its completely ridiculous.

You're comparing teaching out of a history book to instructing on the topic gunfighting ?!?
I'll roll with you on it, you're right, Mas is teaching out of someone else's book !

Suarez is a bum and a criminal.

Posted: 2/7/2006 5:26:06 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Jeff writes many things about the newest latest greatest rifle and cartridge that comes and goes with the latest "FAD" and what can it do any better than say a '50s bolt action rifle in 30/06? You read in many gun rags about the latest revision of a hunting rifle in the flavor of the month that’s the best thing since sliced bread, but doesn't do a thing that the older design couldn't do just as well. But if the gun rags can't convince you to buy it, then their advertisers wouldn't have something new to sell.

Bull poopy.
I'm 33yrs old. My dad doesn't want to give up his rifles to me.
I want to shoot guns...ergo I need to go buy something.

not to comment on advertising = good reviews in a gun magazine:

there are about a million things a modern firearm in 300wsm can do better than a '50's bolt action 30-06 can. want me to list some? (I'll do it anyway)

1. Be bought NIB
a. no quality issues (99.9% of the time)
b. be better steel (both material and heat treat) and synthetic- resist the effects of weather and resulting corrosion
c. have factory support

2.Have Accuracy guarantees- depending on what you buy

3.Have been worked over by most modern gunsmiths- if you want a new barrel for your rem 700 or win70, there is probably a guy in your town that has done it 20 times. I don't know about a sporterized SMLE being worked on by many gunsmiths. Mausers, yes.

Anyhow, pretty much the best guns being made ever are right now, both factory and custom or semi-custom. Just because you don't like the gun industries slightly disguised ownership of the gun media (through advertising) doesn't mean there hasn't been vast strides in quality and efficiency of production (iow, i can get a better gun for cheaper money) in the last 50 years.

If you think a modern rifle has been 'smithed to a higher quality than a '50s rifle, there's nothing I could say to you. In the 20's- '50's the factory hand fitted parts to a higher level than anything is today, outside a full on custom rifle. I'll take my 1938 Winchester Model 70 over a new one anyday.
Why are pre'64 Winchesters selling for much more than a new one? People know the quality is there. The only thing a .300 WSM has over a .30/06 is it uses a short action. The only thing I might do to a .30/06 is run a .30/06 AI reamer in the chamber. Do you really think a WSM will kill a deer any faster than simular ammo from the same manufactor of a older cartridge design?

Posted: 2/7/2006 5:45:01 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.

Fortier's articles are historical as well as technical, so his pictures place the firearm in it's historical context. Your personal attack on his family relations reminds me of my JR high PE class- immature and empty male posturing. Blindly insulting the man and his wife is very bad form.

I think you're just jealous of a man better than you.

Easy there, cowboy. Nobody is going after the guy's family . Allow me to rephrase.

Re-read your comment above. How else should your comment be taken except as and inslult to both him and his wife, of which you admit you know next to nothing? Perhaps you should refrain from making comments that require you to "rephrase"
Again, absolutly nothing negative said or intended about his wife. The only thing that required me to rephrase was your post indicating that what I said was taken out of context.

I find it odd that he has his picture taken in in outfits that correspond to his subject matter, historical or not. I've seen everything from Fortier in a Soviet paratroopers uniform to Fortier posing in the newest Sigtac outfit. I've seen him in a ghillie suit, when shooting on a range.

So what? His illustrations have something most others lack: context of use. I appreciate it, and find it benefits the articles
It's a personal preference. It's no more or less valid than your preference. You like it, I don't. I'm not the only one, do a search and check the archive if you don't believe me.

What I have not seen is any indication that Fortier's writing has any grounding in experience. Nothing in his writing indicates why he is qualified to comment on the usefulness, or lack thereof, of anything he has reviewed. So there is no confusion, I do NOT think that he should be writing half of every article as a personal history and an exhibition of his experience. I do think that he, and every other writer out there, should at least add a footnote indicating why anyone should believe anything he says.

Translation: What's important is a pedigree, rather than the merit of the work itself. I don't give a damn if he's a high school dropout with nothing but a gun hobby. If he has educated himself to the point where he can educate me, I value what he says. The worth is in the product itself, not his resume.
Yes, some creds would be nice. Without them, noone has any way of knowing if he is making this shit up, or if he actually knows what he is talking about. Nobody knows who this guy is, just that he writes articles. Anybody can write an article. Again check the archive. There are several instances of him (a) plagerizing other authors, (b) promoting gun builders that are rip off artists, and (c) printing an article with numerous mistakes about mils and mildot usage. Check other magazines. SCUBA, backpacking, anthropology, and medical journals and publications in addition to most news magazines tell you who the writer actually is, along with citing examples of why their article has any validity.

My comment was not intended as an insult to his wife. I don't know anything about the woman, nor do I care to. What I do know is that most women frown on such things as you dressing up and having a photo shoot for a magazine. I find it surprising that someone who makes a habit of such things landed a wife. Good for him. That she will willingly participate in such things truely does amaze me. My wife would laugh me out of the house if I suggested such a thing.

So it sounds like he was perhaps wiser in choosing a mate than you. I happen to find the fact that he and his wife work as a team most inspiring
Speaking of insulting people you don't know. I doubt it. Again, I have no issue whatsoever with his wife. Clearly she sees something in him. Probably because she knows more about him than how his articles are written and how he chooses to illustrate them. I'd bet that that is more than you or I will ever know about him

I did not intend to insult anyone's family.

Intentions are irrelevent. You did. You ought to apoligize.
Apologize to who? You? My intent was not to insult anyone, and I have explained that twice. If David Fortier reads this, takes it as an insult to his wife, and is offended, I apologize. If his wife thinks that I was trying to insult her, I apologize. If you think I am going to issue a general apology to this board or you because you don't agree with my opinion, you can forget it. He is the one that chooses to have his picture taken in costume like a trekkie, and he is the one that has those pictures published in national publications. If he can't handle the fact that some people think it is stupid, he needs to find another profession.

I also feel obligated to state that I am most certainly not jealous of David Fortier. He may well be a better man than me, but there is nothing in his writing that would indicate it. My knowledge of what works and what doesn't is based in real, verifiable experience. I have no idea of where his comes from. A quick Google search didn't shed any light on it, and I have never seen a word in print that indicates that he has any.

An appeal to ignorance does not support an argument. He at least has held and shot an FN PS90, so if you have not, I am interested in hearing him over you. That's why I read his latest article in SGN and did not ask you.Appeal to ignorance? Again, in all the Fortier articles I have ever read, he has never indicated that there is anything in his opinion that is valid beyond "This gun is cool and I really like it". I have handled a PS90, and a P-90 for that matter, but that is hardly relevent here. Actually, his PS90 article wasn't half bad. Note that he didn't go beyond stating that he thought that it was fun, and may have some defensive applications. This is not always the case in his articles. If he stays in his lane and doesn't write about things he doesn't know about, I don't care what his creds are. If he is going to write articles about a gun's suitability for combat, he should have some legitimate basis for writing.

I think you are just bitching to bitch in general and don't really have anything relevent to say.And I think that you need to lighten up and fight your own battles. Fortier is a member here, and is more than welcome to respond to my post however he sees fit. You however lack any basis for bothering me about my post. You seem content to launch insults at me, attempting to imply that I am a lesser man than Fortier, that my choice of mates is somehow flawed, and that I should apologize to Fortier because I said something that hurt your feelings.

If you care so much about Fortier being offended by me, feel free to IM Gunwritr and draw his attention to this thread.

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:04:23 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

He will stand in a group and listen to the most outrageous crap ever spewed

Not that uncommon when any group of shooters get together...

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:09:37 PM EDT

[#15]

no need. I thought you were out of line and called you on it. The Emily Fortier comment rubbed me rather raw. I'd ask that you show a little more restraint and respect in the future.

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:24:37 PM EDT

[#16]

I've had the chance to attend LFI-I and can say that I enjoyed his class, and found him to be a decent fellow. I found some of the info good, and some of the info not so good. I've had this experience in every class I've attened. This is the best reason to take classes from multiple instructors. Take what works for you and keep it, and trash the stuff that doesn't. Don't get hung up on one instructor or style.

As for Fortier goes, I like his articles. How many gun rags/writers out there cover the types of guns he does? He covers the types of stuff I'm interested in. If it wasn't for his articles, there would be almost nothing on military type firearms in the gun rags these days.

Posted: 2/7/2006 6:40:44 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I've actually got an in depth report. However, this website does a decent job of covering the highlights. Unless MA was actually involved in the case, there is generally inaccuracies due to inadequate research.

He writes well and is easy to read. Every now and again he makes a good point about legal issues, but for the most part he's just another gun writer.

Hmmm... This Ayoob's responseis in direct reply and refutiation of that website and the writer of the article.
Sample:
"In any case, only two sources were cited in the attack on me: a BS TV show and the analysis of the incident written by Dr. French Anderson. I've read the latter in detail, and have met Dr. Anderson, and I think his heart was in the right place in this matter. Dr. Anderson himself was careful to note that some of what he had written was speculative in nature. This was pointedly left out of the attack on me, falsely implying that the Anderson analysis was the final documented word on the incident, a claim Dr. Anderson himself never made for his work."

I am no particular fan of his, but it's good to have both sides.

Cheers

Posted: 2/7/2006 8:06:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
both ayoob and cooper were the firstest with the mostest. you younguns probably see them as fossilized dinosaurs, and you may be right, but in their prime, their teachings probably saved a lot of lives and paved the way for the higher speed guys to come along (especially cooper).

No kidding and Cooper once said even if you are out of ammo,bang on a garbage lid or kick something real hard while reloading,if the perp ducks(thinking it's gun fire)you have saved valuable secounds that might save your life!!

Cooper also says learn cane or 1&5/8 dowell rod fighting,can save your life!!!

Anything you do besides stand there,while your weapon is out of ammo or malfuntioning may save your life!!

Words to live by(Jeff Cooper has printed more good things to help you survive)than anything you may think bad about him!!

Bob

Posted: 2/7/2006 8:39:33 PM EDT

[#19]

i always wondered what kind of hard core street experience ayoob got on the mean streets of goatbang NH, i never really took him very seriously except when he talked about court behavior.

Fortier is by far the most irritating gun writer. he comes off as playing dress-up to brag about all the gear he gets for free T&E, im so friggin tired of finding blatant falacies in his articles. the article about the use of mil-dots was the final straw. i think he's a member here, maybe he'll show up to defend himself.

the most egregious error i have ever read was in last months SOF. the wife got me a subscription for god knows why. so in the first issue of my subscription i read an article in which the guy is talking about PAQ-4 on the M4 and he says "this is the same laser unit our troops use to guide smart bombs to their target" i almost shit my pants. this magazine is sold at PXs all over the country and read by guys who both carry PAQ-4s and laz targets. and this numbnutz who obviously knows jack shit about it is preaching authoritatively to people who actually know. i threw the issue right in the trash, didnt even finish the paragraph.

Posted: 2/7/2006 9:00:34 PM EDT

[#20]

I can't stand any comment by Peter Kokalis.

Posted: 2/7/2006 9:15:25 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Bull poopy.
I'm 33yrs old. My dad doesn't want to give up his rifles to me.
I want to shoot guns...ergo I need to go buy something.

not to comment on advertising = good reviews in a gun magazine:

there are about a million things a modern firearm in 300wsm can do better than a '50's bolt action 30-06 can. want me to list some? (I'll do it anyway)

1. Be bought NIB
a. no quality issues (99.9% of the time)
b. be better steel (both material and heat treat) and synthetic- resist the effects of weather and resulting corrosion
c. have factory support

2.Have Accuracy guarantees- depending on what you buy

3.Have been worked over by most modern gunsmiths- if you want a new barrel for your rem 700 or win70, there is probably a guy in your town that has done it 20 times. I don't know about a sporterized SMLE being worked on by many gunsmiths. Mausers, yes.

Anyhow, pretty much the best guns being made ever are right now, both factory and custom or semi-custom. Just because you don't like the gun industries slightly disguised ownership of the gun media (through advertising) doesn't mean there hasn't been vast strides in quality and efficiency of production (iow, i can get a better gun for cheaper money) in the last 50 years.

If you think a modern rifle has been 'smithed to a higher quality than a '50s rifle, there's nothing I could say to you. In the 20's- '50's the factory hand fitted parts to a higher level than anything is today, outside a full on custom rifle. I'll take my 1938 Winchester Model 70 over a new one anyday.
Why are pre'64 Winchesters selling for much more than a new one? People know the quality is there. The only thing a .300 WSM has over a .30/06 is it uses a short action. The only thing I might do to a .30/06 is run a .30/06 AI reamer in the chamber. Do you really think a WSM will kill a deer any faster than simular ammo from the same manufactor of a older cartridge design?

bull Poopy again. and i'm not even talking about pistols, or shotguns, or rimfire guns at this point. although they are all being made the best right now, in 2006.

but for rifles- factory made: Savage, Sako, Tikka, FN SPR's, Sauer, etc etdc can all be had for fair money and excellent performance. And NIB in my town. Then there are the semi custom/ semi production companies- hs precision, armalite, rra, dpms etc.

To find a special pre 64 I have to look all over the state or country and there is no guarantee of what exact condition grade it is.

hand fitting has gone by the wayside now that ultra accurate cnc is the name of the game, although savage still does a lot of their barrel making or straightening by hand.

anyhow, availability, quality and price are all best in 2005. If winchester closes down that would be a bummer, but probably still overall the state of guns is the best now, 2005, compared to 1950's

Posted: 2/7/2006 9:20:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
If you think a modern rifle has been 'smithed to a higher quality than a '50s rifle, there's nothing I could say to you. In the 20's- '50's the factory hand fitted parts to a higher level than anything is today, outside a full on custom rifle. I'll take my 1938 Winchester Model 70 over a new one anyday.
Why are pre'64 Winchesters selling for much more than a new one? People know the quality is there. The only thing a .300 WSM has over a .30/06 is it uses a short action. The only thing I might do to a .30/06 is run a .30/06 AI reamer in the chamber. Do you really think a WSM will kill a deer any faster than simular ammo from the same manufactor of a older cartridge design?

No, the 300 wsm will not kill much of anything "deader" than a 30-06. But it is an improvement. A AI 30-06 would be so much a waste of time it isn't funny- new dies, new reamer, cost of the work, for maybe 100fps.

Next you'll say you don't think modern ammo is any better than the old stuff, eh?

Posted: 2/7/2006 9:28:22 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
whoever called it "gangster"

Care to explain why its "gangster" then, or were you just joking?

not going to get into a flame war but it wasnt ment as a joke, that's not the only time he has suggested you use that method of hold and not in that instance.

Posted: 2/7/2006 10:08:08 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

bull Poopy again. and i'm not even talking about pistols, or shotguns, or rimfire guns at this point. although they are all being made the best right now, in 2006.

but for rifles- factory made: Savage, Sako, Tikka, FN SPR's, Sauer, etc etdc can all be had for fair money and excellent performance. And NIB in my town. Then there are the semi custom/ semi production companies- hs precision, armalite, rra, dpms etc.

To find a special pre 64 I have to look all over the state or country and there is no guarantee of what exact condition grade it is.

hand fitting has gone by the wayside now that ultra accurate cnc is the name of the game, although savage still does a lot of their barrel making or straightening by hand.

anyhow, availability, quality and price are all best in 2005. If winchester closes down that would be a bummer, but probably still overall the state of guns is the best now, 2005, compared to 1950's

Well you brought up pistols too. I have a friend that has his grandfather's 1911 Colt built in the teens. This pistol has had maybe 100 rounds fired thru it. It is as finally fitted as any custom 1911 built today. Yes the modern sights are better and there are other improvements to these pistols, but you have to either buy a custom pistol or send your new one out to a custom smith to get what was done at the factory 90 years ago. If you've ever handled an older S&W in like NIB condition you’d find out the same thing. Then you have the law suit proof triggers on new firearms. Plus the safety locks that all the rage now.

If you're so thrilled by the newest stuff go for it, some of us aren't as impressed as you are.

Posted: 2/7/2006 10:51:41 PM EDT

[#25]

I forget what magazine it was, but the author claimed Assoyb (however you spell it) had one of his students fire on a target while he was DOWNRANGE to "feel like what its like to be shot at again".

Whether or not this is true, its fucking idiotic, and from then on I haven't really given a shit.

And really, half this shit is just marketing. How many fucking Assyoob knives do we need? Its like Ginsu around here. Pretty soon he will have his own ipod. Fuck it all to hell.

Posted: 2/7/2006 10:55:33 PM EDT

[#26]

so do terrorists, read my sig line

Posted: 2/7/2006 11:07:37 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
If you think a modern rifle has been 'smithed to a higher quality than a '50s rifle, there's nothing I could say to you. In the 20's- '50's the factory hand fitted parts to a higher level than anything is today, outside a full on custom rifle. I'll take my 1938 Winchester Model 70 over a new one anyday.
Why are pre'64 Winchesters selling for much more than a new one? People know the quality is there. The only thing a .300 WSM has over a .30/06 is it uses a short action. The only thing I might do to a .30/06 is run a .30/06 AI reamer in the chamber. Do you really think a WSM will kill a deer any faster than simular ammo from the same manufactor of a older cartridge design?

No, the 300 wsm will not kill much of anything "deader" than a 30-06. But it is an improvement. A AI 30-06 would be so much a waste of time it isn't funny- new dies, new reamer, cost of the work, for maybe 100fps.

Next you'll say you don't think modern ammo is any better than the old stuff, eh?

So somehow you are going to tell me how my Savage 99 in .308 win(made in 1954)out of real good steel before we exported it! Is somehow inferiour to the new rifles you have now??

HAAAHAA I tell you I also have a Win.375 that is the real deal(real steel)!

Son a thirty cal is a thirty cal(no matter how fast you push it)I would rather have something just a little bigger traveling at about the same speed!! Say a .375 H&H or a 35 Whealen!!!

You got a lot to learn!!!

Bob

Posted: 2/7/2006 11:08:40 PM EDT

[#28]

I like Cooper's writing. It's entertainment and an opinion column, not the Bible. He's witty, writes well, and has interesting things in there. Sure, he's a surly, opinionated old coot, but those are the best kind.

Ayoob has always come off like a wanna-be to me. That's just the impression that I got. None of that is really relevant anyway. I'm sure that if I ever have to shoot anyone in self-defense, which is unlikely, I'll panic and start spraying rounds everywhere and it'll be a whole huge mess. I don't really go adventuring so I don't run into the criminal element very often.

Posted: 2/8/2006 1:09:20 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I forget what magazine it was, but the author claimed Assoyb (however you spell it) had one of his students fire on a target while he was DOWNRANGE to "feel like what its like to be shot at again".

Whether or not this is true, its fucking idiotic, and from then on I haven't really given a shit.

And really, half this shit is just marketing. How many fucking Assyoob knives do we need? Its like Ginsu around here. Pretty soon he will have his own ipod. Fuck it all to hell.

That wasn't Ayoob, that was Gabe Suarez. It was in SWAT magazine a couple months back.

As for ripping on NH - sure, its not New York or LA, but I'm sure over 20 some years in LE he's been through his fair share of things. I work for a small town police department myself (pop. 15,000) and while we may not get as many murders, rapes and armed robberies as the big cities, we have had the same situations the big city cops have, we just don't have them as frequently. You'd be surprised how many fights, pursuits, etc. a small town police deparment gets into in a year.

Posted: 2/8/2006 8:33:03 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
I can't stand any comment by Peter Kokalis.

man, pete kokalis is a god!

Posted: 2/8/2006 8:34:36 AM EDT

[#31]

tag for later

Posted: 2/8/2006 9:34:25 AM EDT

[#32]

Cooper may very well be a nice guy. I've never met him. However, his style of writing causes him to come across as a pompous jackass (I'm referring to his writings on the last page of G&A). And, if you don't shoot a .45 and do shoot a .223, you're a total loser. As someone earlier in this thread stated, he's stuck in the past. hinking.gif

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:07:41 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Cooper may very well be a nice guy. I've never met him. However, his style of writing causes him to come across as a pompous jackass (I'm referring to his writings on the last page of G&A). And, if you don't shoot a .45 and do shoot a .223, you're a total loser. As someone earlier in this thread stated, he's stuck in the past.

Those who refuse to learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it. I've known Jeff for 20 years, don’t think you know the man because you've read something printed in a magazine. If you're happy with your "poodle shooter" go for it. As they say, He's seen the elephant and heard the owl.

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:24:14 AM EDT

[#34]

I've heard a lot of trash talking of Ayoob. As someone who attended LFI-I, I can see why. He's absolutely a ham and likes the book signing and showmanship aspect of his job. That said, I think he also provides a great service to all of us gun owners by providing insight into the consequences of lethal force in our society. He emphasizes incident avoidence and deterrence and speaks heavily on the responsibility of carrying a gun and the possibility of taking another life. There are some people that come out of his class realizing that they don't want to carry a gun, that they aren't ready for that kind of responsibility, and that is absolutely a wonderful thing. He came across to me as flashy, perhaps suffering from a case of clinically significant paranoia, but not stupid, and quite a nice guy.

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:28:03 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
[FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.

+1

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:33:07 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
That wasn't Ayoob, that was Gabe Suarez. It was in SWAT magazine a couple months back.

As for ripping on NH - sure, its not New York or LA, but I'm sure over 20 some years in LE he's been through his fair share of things. I work for a small town police department myself (pop. 15,000) and while we may not get as many murders, rapes and armed robberies as the big cities, we have had the same situations the big city cops have, we just don't have them as frequently. You'd be surprised how many fights, pursuits, etc. a small town police deparment gets into in a year.

I stand corrected, I knew it was SWAT but wasn't sure. I found the mag and checked it.

Posted: 2/8/2006 10:46:50 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
[FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.

+1

+1 I'm ain't so smart that I can't learn from either of them.

Posted: 2/8/2006 2:08:48 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Cooper may very well be a nice guy. I've never met him. However, his style of writing causes him to come across as a pompous jackass (I'm referring to his writings on the last page of G&A). And, if you don't shoot a .45 and do shoot a .223, you're a total loser. As someone earlier in this thread stated, he's stuck in the past.

Those who refuse to learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it. I've known Jeff for 20 years, don’t think you know the man because you've read something printed in a magazine. If you're happy with your "poodle shooter" go for it. As they say, He's seen the elephant and heard the owl.

Last time I talked to him....he had something nice to say about Glocks!

It was "I suppose a Glock is a good weapon, if you have no interest in learning how to use a weapon."

Posted: 2/8/2006 2:20:22 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Captain Obvious.

I will never understand the cult like following he has. It reminds me of the stepford Oprah followers.

He has spent his entire career self promoting, bragging, convincing himself & others he has something worth listening to, and modifying the concepts of others... then trying to name it after himself.

Just another hack gun magazine writer with delusions of grandeur. The good part for him is that he has made a very successful career of it. I just don’t understand the “Mas groupies”. He has not said or done anything so great that has not been said or done by any other career gun writer. I have met him... and collectively evaluating my observations and the observations of a number of professional instructors, I feel dead on about not liking him. I never cared much for anyone who has an unrealistic high opinion of themself.

Not to center on just Mas... let me strike out at another Gun god. Jeff Cooper. I like Jeff Cooper, I regret I have not met him. Once again I do not understand the near worship of the man by the 1911 crowd. I believe that if you look back at Cooper’s writings... he has nearly said the exact thing that Mas was quoted in the first post. Mas probably read it to... reworded it... and arranged for it to be posted on arfcom.

Having said all this.

The statement in the first post is very true.

It in some way has been proclaimed by every defensive gun writer since Skeeter Skelton. The observation is obvious no matter who of them it has been quoted from.

Of course the observation is obvious. Equally obvious is the observation that crime is against the law.
But the Brady Bunch and their followers manage to get caught in the fantasy that somehow there needs to be more laws against crime.
Somethings just NEED to be blatantly obvious.

Posted: 2/8/2006 2:27:14 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
I know Massad personally and shoot IDPA with him on a regular basis.

The guy is nothing like what you would expect.

He has NO ego what so ever and has NO desire to impress anyone with his knowledge or abilities.

If you ask his advice he will gladly give it but never jumps in or comments on anyones choice of gun, stance, form, equipment or otherwise.

He will stand in a group and listen to the most outrageous crap ever spewed and never say a word while I'm standing there biting my tongue.

My theory is that writers are kind of like actors.

+1 tc6969 hit it right on the head.
I know him also and have shot with him on numerous occasions. He is not what many people claim him to be. I find him to be a nice guy.
He is quite knowledgeable about the entire firearms field, but he is not arrogant or egotistical at all. He will tell you anything at all if asked, but tends to keep quiet unless asked. My impression is that he is just a regular guy, friendly unless you give him reason to be otherwise.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I think this observation by Massad Ayoob is spot on (Page 2 of 2)

General » General Discussion

Warning

Confirm Action

About AR15.COM

Stay Connected

Newsletter

Contact Us