Quoted: I'm not sure how long you've been carrying, but if I were to guess, I would say you're fairly new. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, when I first started carrying I stuck with a S&W 442 in a pocket holster - with only 4 rounds, the chamber under the hammer was empty. I was concerned with AD (no, not ED!!). After a couple of years of concealed carry with different pistols/revolvers, everthing from Bersa to Kel-Tec, Taurus, S&W, Makarov, etc., my comfort level and proficiency improved. I think you might just need more time and experience. I've carried a 1911 C&L under a t-shirt in Florida during 105 degree temps. Sure, I'm sweating, but it isn't the pistol making me sweat - its the heat/humidity. ETA: if I made an improper assumption, I apologize and did not mean to embarrass you.

That's a fair assumption.  Honestly I haven't carried in years but did for 4 years when TX first started CHL and let my license expire in 2002.  Back then, I had a Glock 27 and carried it only sparingly.  I'm no expert but I know how to handle weapons.  I've been shooting off and on for 25 years or so.  I don't think any amount of training will make me comfortable with a barrel pointed at my nuts though

Unlike most people here though, I'm basing my real world experiences, not stories from Guns & Ammo or the survival forum.  I find it funny that someone mentioned here in GD that they felt undergunned walking into Walmart with a Glok 19 and FIVE magazines and nobody blinks an eye but mention you carry a gun unchambered and people are in disbelief   I have to ask are people here making their decisions on emotion or do they sit down and think about what is realistic and what is not? I grew up in a bad neighborhood and have been to a lot of crime ridden places in the world.  I was shot at 3 times in High School alone and there are probably another 7 times where I would have been justified in using deadly force.  Of those 10 instances, I would have had time to rack the slide in 9 of them.  The other one I would not have had time to even pull out my pistol as I was jumped blindly while walking down a dark street in St Lucia.   So yeah, maybe I would think differently if I attended one of these courses where they try to prepare you for every scenario, but I don't think these scenarios necessarily reflect what I would run into in real life.

Quoted: Now I hear what you are saying, I guess it just depends on what scenarious you think you are likely to encounter.  In my mind, the list in order of decreasing likelihood is... 1) Road Rage nut - plenty of time to chamber 2) Seeing someone commit a crime against another party - plenty of time to chamber if you decide you should intervene 2) Mugging/assault - may or may not be at a disdvantage here People here tend to think in worst case scenarious as opposed to a evaluating it from a pragmatic risk/reward POV.

I agree with Duke.  I always carry chamber-empty, unless I'm going to be in a situation where drawing and shooting would be more likely- i.e. convenience stores, restaurant in a remote area, walking across town, making a bank deposit at the drive thru.  Situational awareness is the key.  You can be locked and cocked all you want, but if your head is not on a swivel, your chances are no better than mine.  And for those bushwackers who might "jump" you, I always carry a 4-inch tactical folder.  If you can't deploy the blade, just hold it in your fist like a roll of quarters.  In addition, my key chain makes a decent improvised flail.  I have about 20 keys on it (No, I'm not a custodian), with a 4 inch plastic handle attached.  The handle makes a nice flail, and I can use it for pressure points.  Finally, if you can, always wear a hat.  If someone gets close enough, you can always smack them in the face.  It may give you a few extra seconds.  My hat has saved me from several wasp bites/stings.

If I was worried about having an AD to the point that I was willing to risk dying in an armed encounter by carrying unchambered, I'd carry a different weapon.

If you're concerned about snagging a Glock's trigger, don't carry a Glock. If cocked and locked worries you, don't carry a 1911. How difficult is this???

Don't trust the transfer bar AND the hammer blocking trigger rebound block on your Smith and Wesson revolver? Either learn in depth about the respective safety features of your chosen weapon or don't carry.

The VAST majority of AD's that you hear about are caused by a brain-fart. Someone pulled the trigger when they shouldn't. Yep, the gun wouldn't have gone off if it wasn't loaded, that's true...It also wouldn't have gone off if the doofus hadn't pulled the trigger.

That said, there ARE occasions where a genuine accident has happened and a loaded gun has gone off, sometimes causing harm. These are almost always caused by negligance, carrying a DAO pocket pistol with no holster in a pocket full of keys or such, getting a shirttail caught on the trigger of a Glock when holstering, etc.

For those who say they will have plenty of time to chamber a round, will you likewise have plenty of time to clear the potiential jam if/when the round nosedives as you chamber? Can you do this if you're holding the knifehand of an assailant with your weak hand? Admittedly, these are unlikely problems but we carry a firearm for the unlikely risk of being attacked.

Just for giggles, take your preferred mode of carry to an IDPA match and see how it (and YOU)perform under the clock. You'll quickly find that mode of carry is horribly slow and realize that a proper belt holster an excellent way to carry, as well as being VERY concealable.

I mean nothing either insulting nor demeaning by my above comments, feel free to IM/email me if you'd like to discuss our respective views offline.

Quoted: Quoted: 1. People who are mandated to by thier agency,job, whatever. 2. People who lack confidance in thier ability to handle thier firearms, and their firearme itself in some cases. 3. The Israelis do it too! Get an airsoft gun and practice drawing it, chambering it and firing it before a buddy can charge across the room and stab you with a rubber knive or whatever. Personally I always carry a round chambered. If you need a pistol things are going to be happening too fast to chamber a round.

True, but they also open carry M-16's!

Quoted: Quoted: Now I hear what you are saying, I guess it just depends on what scenarious you think you are likely to encounter.  In my mind, the list in order of decreasing likelihood is... 1) Road Rage nut - plenty of time to chamber 2) Seeing someone commit a crime against another party - plenty of time to chamber if you decide you should intervene 2) Mugging/assault - may or may not be at a disdvantage here People here tend to think in worst case scenarious as opposed to a evaluating it from a pragmatic risk/reward POV.   I agree with Duke.  I always carry chamber-empty, unless I'm going to be in a situation where drawing and shooting would be more likely- i.e. convenience stores, restaurant in a remote area, walking across town, making a bank deposit at the drive thru.  Situational awareness is the key.  You can be locked and cocked all you want, but if your head is not on a swivel, your chances are no better than mine.  And for those bushwackers who might "jump" you, I always carry a 4-inch tactical folder.  If you can't deploy the blade, just hold it in your fist like a roll of quarters.  In addition, my key chain makes a decent improvised flail.  I have about 20 keys on it (No, I'm not a custodian), with a 4 inch plastic handle attached.  The handle makes a nice flail, and I can use it for pressure points.  Finally, if you can, always wear a hat.  If someone gets close enough, you can always smack them in the face.  It may give you a few extra seconds.  My hat has saved me from several wasp bites/stings.

A hat? Are you serious?

Quoted: Quoted: Now I hear what you are saying, I guess it just depends on what scenarious you think you are likely to encounter.  In my mind, the list in order of decreasing likelihood is... 1) Road Rage nut - plenty of time to chamber 2) Seeing someone commit a crime against another party - plenty of time to chamber if you decide you should intervene 2) Mugging/assault - may or may not be at a disdvantage here People here tend to think in worst case scenarious as opposed to a evaluating it from a pragmatic risk/reward POV.   I agree with Duke.  I always carry chamber-empty, unless I'm going to be in a situation where drawing and shooting would be more likely- i.e. convenience stores, restaurant in a remote area, walking across town, making a bank deposit at the drive thru.  Situational awareness is the key.  You can be locked and cocked all you want, but if your head is not on a swivel, your chances are no better than mine.  And for those bushwackers who might "jump" you, I always carry a 4-inch tactical folder.  If you can't deploy the blade, just hold it in your fist like a roll of quarters.  In addition, my key chain makes a decent improvised flail.  I have about 20 keys on it (No, I'm not a custodian), with a 4 inch plastic handle attached.  The handle makes a nice flail, and I can use it for pressure points.  Finally, if you can, always wear a hat.  If someone gets close enough, you can always smack them in the face.  It may give you a few extra seconds.  My hat has saved me from several wasp bites/stings.

If you're joking.

If you're not.

Give it a try.  Stand next to a friend and let them smack you in the face with their baseball cap.  Done properly, you will be disoriented for a moment or two.  I'm talking about a worse case scenario- last chance to save your ass.  It's better than harse language, although yelling like a madman is a bonus.  

my Keltec doesnt have a safety. I dont keep one in the pipe. I have accidentaly pulled the trigger with it in my pocket(a stick jabbed it), if there was a round in the chamber it would have fired.

take that for what its worth

Quoted: I dont carry  Mostly cuz I'll only be in TN for like 8 more months.  It does me no good while deployed, and when I get back, I go to the Nazi state of Illinois.  I'm not spending 120 bucks to carry for 8 months.

CCW in TN without a permit is a misdemeanor.

Quoted: Quoted: Ditch the gun panties, get a holster, and pipe up. +1 or else send back the Permit. You are not worhty. (for real)

agreed

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Unchambered and Smart Carry may as well be no gun at all, seriously Give me a break, that's the kind of gung ho shit people love to say but it's bull.  Maybe if you drew down you would need to fire immediately, most of the accounts you hear about indicate plenty of time to give a warning much less rack the slide which only takes a split second.  I'm not saying unchambered is better than not, yeah it's a disadvantage, but saying it makes concealed carry worthless is silly. Go ahead and stuff your pistol(unloaded of course) down the front of your pants, tuck in your shirt, and then try to draw, chamber and present your pistol.  Then to simulate stress, give yourself time limits, say 2.5 seconds to do this in.  Report back on your findings.  Or don't, whatever, just trying to help! As another excercise, repeat these steps with one hand only.  Then with weak hand only.

My bad, that sounded harsher upon re-reading than I meant it, really.

I often carry a S&W revolver in my front pocket with no holster. Just the revolver and 5 shots ready to go. That gun wont go off unless I pull the trigger.

I carry semi-auto's in the holster chambered, no safety, ready to go.

If you think you have enough time to chamber a round for the sake of safety practice throwing your gun at human targets, that is all you'll have time for.


Q: How many police officers in the US have carried a semi-auto chambered?

Q: How many AD's do you think that have had from a gun while in the holster without pulling the trigger?
(I use police officers because they carry most frequently)

I bet you have a 10 times higher chance of winning the lottery than you do shooting yourself in the leg. So next time your carrying your piece unchambered, stop by the gas station, you're odds are better there.

After reading some more of your replies, you really need to rethink carrying a firearm.  Being ill-prepared will just put you and others around you in more danger.
The last thing the concealed carry movement needs is someone getting their gun taken from them and getting it used against them and others.

Quoted: Give it a try.  Stand next to a friend and let them smack you in the face with their baseball cap.  Done properly, you will be disoriented for a moment or two.  I'm talking about a worse case scenario- last chance to save your ass.  It's better than harse language, although yelling like a madman is a bonus.

How is smacking someone with a hat more effective than punching/kneeing/elbowing/kicking/biting/gouging?

Even if I have a hat, I will use one of those before I use my hat as a weapon.

Quoted: my Keltec doesnt have a safety. I dont keep one in the pipe. I have accidentaly pulled the trigger with it in my pocket(a stick jabbed it), if there was a round in the chamber it would have fired. take that for what its worth

That is why god made holsters.

Quoted: Quoted: Give it a try.  Stand next to a friend and let them smack you in the face with their baseball cap.  Done properly, you will be disoriented for a moment or two.  I'm talking about a worse case scenario- last chance to save your ass.  It's better than harse language, although yelling like a madman is a bonus.   How is smacking someone with a hat more effective than punching/kneeing/elbowing/kicking/biting/gouging? Even if I have a hat, I will use one of those before I use my hat as a weapon.

Ban hats.......for the children!

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not sure how long you've been carrying, but if I were to guess, I would say you're fairly new. I could be wrong. Nevertheless, when I first started carrying I stuck with a S&W 442 in a pocket holster - with only 4 rounds, the chamber under the hammer was empty. I was concerned with AD (no, not ED!!). After a couple of years of concealed carry with different pistols/revolvers, everthing from Bersa to Kel-Tec, Taurus, S&W, Makarov, etc., my comfort level and proficiency improved. I think you might just need more time and experience. I've carried a 1911 C&L under a t-shirt in Florida during 105 degree temps. Sure, I'm sweating, but it isn't the pistol making me sweat - its the heat/humidity. ETA: if I made an improper assumption, I apologize and did not mean to embarrass you. That's a fair assumption.  Honestly I haven't carried in years but did for 4 years when TX first started CHL and let my license expire in 2002.  Back then, I had a Glock 27 and carried it only sparingly.  I'm no expert but I know how to handle weapons.  I've been shooting off and on for 25 years or so.  I don't think any amount of training will make me comfortable with a barrel pointed at my nuts though Unlike most people here though, I'm basing my real world experiences, not stories from Guns & Ammo or the survival forum.  I find it funny that someone mentioned here in GD that they felt undergunned walking into Walmart with a Glok 19 and FIVE magazines and nobody blinks an eye but mention you carry a gun unchambered and people are in disbelief   I have to ask are people here making their decisions on emotion or do they sit down and think about what is realistic and what is not? I grew up in a bad neighborhood and have been to a lot of crime ridden places in the world.  I was shot at 3 times in High School alone and there are probably another 7 times where I would have been justified in using deadly force.  Of those 10 instances, I would have had time to rack the slide in 9 of them.  The other one I would not have had time to even pull out my pistol as I was jumped blindly while walking down a dark street in St Lucia.   So yeah, maybe I would think differently if I attended one of these courses where they try to prepare you for every scenario, but I don't think these scenarios necessarily reflect what I would run into in real life.

That was me.    and yes I was carrying chambered, but you don't understand it was Wal-mart, have you ever seen some of the people that go to Wal-Mart in my area

Quoted: Secondly, in an actual self defense scenario you might well find yourself in a position where you CANNOT chamber around, thus making your weapon absolutely useless. Proceeding as if you will be able to chamber a round if trouble starts is a pretty good way to get your butt in a sling. Ever tried manually chambering a round in an automatic pistol in a hurry? Care to guess how many malfunctions I have seen induced that way?

This I can agree with.  I'd say an added risk is cycling by hand results in far greater FTFs than normal cycling.

Quoted: 1) Road Rage nut - plenty of time to chamber 2) Seeing someone commit a crime against another party - plenty of time to chamber if you decide you should intervene 2) Mugging/assault - may or may not be at a disdvantage here

Be careful, if you use the time when you're deciding whether or not to "intervene" to chamber a round, and you don't intervene, you are now guilty of brandishing your weapon and can be arrested.  

I'm built like you and I have a couple of nice small-of-the-back holsters and subcompacts.  You and I are limited in a lot of ways by our build but that's life.  I hate that I cannot effectively carry in summer without having a long, untucked shirt.  I am simply not built for any other means of concealment.  Believe me, I've tried them all.

Quoted: Quoted: 5'6", 150#, I carry a BHP in an IWB holster with an untucked shirt.  A gun with an empty chamber is useless. What kind of holster do you use for the BHP?  Other than my Kahr, my BHP is the other carry gun.

It's an old Bianchi leather holster that needs to be retired and replaced.  It's similar to a Bianchi #6, but for a full-sized gun.  I like it because I can use it for either my 1911 or my BHP.  

I know of an instructor that carries his unloaded and with the gun in his holster and mag in his pocket.

Quoted: I know of an instructor that carries his unloaded and with the gun in his holster and mag in his pocket.

Cool, two things to throw!  Hope it's a .45, at least that'll give some weight to the magazine!

Quoted: Q: How many police officers in the US have carried a semi-auto chambered? Q: How many AD's do you think that have had from a gun while in the holster without pulling the trigger? (I use police officers because they carry most frequently) I bet you have a 10 times higher chance of winning the lottery than you do shooting yourself in the leg. So next time your carrying your piece unchambered, stop by the gas station, you're odds are better there.

I have to disagree on the percentage of ADs.  Either way though, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with say a rigid holster on my hip/thigh but I'm not going to use one of these for CCW carry. When you are using pocket holsters, SmartCarrys, even IWB holseters etc... the chances of an AD goes up exponentially.  Yeah it doesn't go bang unless the trigger is pulled but it can still be pulled as gaspain and many others experienced.  People can call it a ND or whatever but that's looking for blame and I don't care who is to blame if my nuts are shot off.  People have brain farts, I know I'm not immune to them.  

+1 on an unloaded weapon is useless

if it really bothers you that much, get a gun with a manual safety....

Quoted: Either way though, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with say a rigid holster on my hip/thigh but I'm not going to use one of these for CCW carry. When you are using pocket holsters, SmartCarrys, even IWB holseters etc... Cheap, poorly designed worthless holsters the chances of an AD goes up exponentially.

Fixed it for you.

It seems there's your answer.  

Quoted: This I can agree with.  I'd say an added risk is cycling by hand results in far greater FTFs than normal cycling.

Indeed.

You can end up inducing a hellacious jam that can leave you absolutely defenseless against an attacker.

Unless, of course, you follow tried and true wisdom and carry a backup pistol like yours truly does. But if carrying one loaded handgun worries you, carrying two probably won't make you feel any better.

I'd like to answer your question using nothing more than reason and critical thinking. To keep things civil, I think it's proper to refrain from gung ho antics, so I'll oblige and abide by that.

Many difficult decisions in life are arrived at by evaluating the risk and consequence present in two or more scenarios. Consider the decsion to carry.  There is some risk involved. Your gun could be used against you, you could use it improperly and be charged with murder. You could miss your intended target and be charged with involuntary manslaughter. We also know that there is a risk in not carrying. Your life could be threatened and without a firearm, your ability to stop this threat is seriously compromised. My obtaining your CCW, you have weighed the risk and consequence inherent in both scenarios and made the decision to carry. You have managed the risk.

Now let's evaluate the decision to carry chambered or unchambered. The goal is to choose the method that provides you with the most safety. You are weighing the risk of an accidental or negligent discharge agasint the risk of time lost chambering a round. Let's walk thorugh this:

1. It is accepted that there is only one reason to carry unchambered, and that is to avoid an accidental discharge. By "accidental" I mean the gun just going off in your pants, with no action action on the part of the shooter.

2. It is accepted that an unchambered gun is slower to draw and fire than a chambered gun.

3. The possibility exists that the shooter will have 30 seconds to draw and fire his weapon. The possibility exists that the shooter will have less than 2 seconds to draw and fire his weapon. We concede that determining how much time will be available beforehand is impractical.

So now we've established that sometimes there will be enough time to chamber a round, and sometimes there won't be. Unfortunately, the risk of having a round unchambered when there is less than 2 seconds available to draw and fire cannot be quantified. It is possible that we will need to draw and fire very quickly. It is possible that we will only have one hand free. Thus, as an insurance policy, it seems reasonable to carry with a round chambered.

But what about the risk of an AD/ND?

The risk of an AD can be completely eliminated for all intents and purposes. The risk of a ND can be reduced dramatically to the point of being moot, with training. Consider my 1911. For the pistol to fire, three things MUST happen, and there are no exceptions:

1. The safety must be disengaged.
2. The grip safety must be engaged.
3. The trigger must be pulled.

All three of these must occur for the round to fire. It is inconceivable that all three of these events will occur simultaneously in my pants. I'd wager that the odds of winning the lottery are better.

To address the possibility of an ND, consider this: For this to occur, you must pull the trigger when you shouldn't have. The risk of an ND is present whether you carry unchambered or not. "What" you ask? "How is that possible if there is no round in the chamber?".

The answer is simple.

It is generally accepted that all guns are loaded all the time. We agree on this simple rule, because it's an effective way to minimize the risk of a negligent discharge. When somebody hands you a weapon that you KNOW is loaded, you have a tendency to be careful. If all guns are loaded until you've proven otherwise, you will have the same tendency to be careful. To this end, we keep our fingers off the trigger until we are ready to fire. Since we do this anyway, it is reasonable, safe and prudent to keep a round chambered.

Some guns do not have a safety. In these guns, all that is required is that the trigger be pulled. The possibility exists that the trigger can be inadvertently pulled by something other than the shooter's finger. Note that while the possibility exists, it is not likely. As a mental excersize, it is much easier to construct scenarios where a fast draw and fire are required, than it is to speculate on how a trigger might be pulled inadvertently in a proper holster. As a risk, it also easy to mitigate. The holster can be inspected for loose threads or obstructions near the trigger guard. In the absense of these rare obstructions - especially those sufficent to overcome the pistol's trigger pull -  the pistol will simply not fire.

It is very easy to determine whether or not the possibility of a trigger being pulled in a holster is present. It is very difficult to determine how much time you will need to draw and fire, before you leave your house. It is very difficult to determine if you will have both hands free before you leave your house.

With the possibility of an accidental discharge completely eliminated and the the possibility of a negligent discharge nearly eliminated to the point of being moot, I find no reason why somebody would willingly carry a pistol without a round chambered.

If there are any logical fallacies present in my admitedly simple argument, please point them out so that I can revise my argument or ultimately my position, if need be.

Quoted: That was me.    and yes I was carrying chambered, but you don't understand it was Wal-mart, have you ever seen some of the people that go to Wal-Mart in my area

Alright, on this I will concede 100%

PS:  I don't think it's just your Walmart

Quoted: Quoted: Q: How many police officers in the US have carried a semi-auto chambered? Q: How many AD's do you think that have had from a gun while in the holster without pulling the trigger? (I use police officers because they carry most frequently) I bet you have a 10 times higher chance of winning the lottery than you do shooting yourself in the leg. So next time your carrying your piece unchambered, stop by the gas station, you're odds are better there. I have to disagree on the percentage of ADs.  Either way though, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with say a rigid holster on my hip/thigh but I'm not going to use one of these for CCW carry. When you are using pocket holsters, SmartCarrys, even IWB holseters etc... the chances of an AD goes up exponentially.  Yeah it doesn't go bang unless the trigger is pulled but it can still be pulled as gaspain and many others experienced.  People can call it a ND or whatever but that's looking for blame and I don't care who is to blame if my nuts are shot off.  People have brain farts, I know I'm not immune to them.

My semi-auto doesnt go bang unless your finger is on the trigger and you push down the grip safety. Drawstring jackets cant do this without help.  

Quoted: Ditch the gun panties, get a holster, and pipe up.

+1

Get yourself a Sparks VM-2 and for goodness sake, load your weapon.

Carry the way you feel most comfortable.  A loaded weapon with an empty chamber is a hell of a lot better than a fully loaded weapon left at home in your safe.

The times I have carried, I have usually been involved in very strenuous work, sometimes in very dense brush/old fences/ etc.  I'll be damn if I will have a cocked and locked auto on my hip in those circumstances.  Some of the places are so tight, stuff is stripped out of my pockets, and the safety is often released on my weapon.  

A revolver is ideal in situations that demand "at the ready" but circumstances indicate caution.

A note to all the cocked and locked crowd, go review an original field manual for the 1911 as used by mounted troops.  They were instructed to NOT CARRY COCKED and LOCKED unless attack was imminent.

Quoted: Carry the way you feel most comfortable.  A loaded weapon with an empty chamber is a hell of a lot better than a fully loaded weapon left at home in your safe. The times I have carried, I have usually been involved in very strenuous work, sometimes in very dense brush/old fences/ etc.  I'll be damn if I will have a cocked and locked auto on my hip in those circumstances.  Some of the places are so tight, stuff is stripped out of my pockets, and the safety is often released on my weapon.   A revolver is ideal in situations that demand "at the ready" but circumstances indicate caution. A note to all the cocked and locked crowd, go review an original field manual for the 1911 as used by mounted troops.  They were instructed to NOT CARRY COCKED and LOCKED unless attack was imminent.

And that had NOTHING to do with it being unsafe, it had to do with Army Regulation!  IN the 90's, cocked and locked was STILL not authorized as a means for carrying the 1911.  It had EVERYTHING to do with poor training on the part of the Army.  Aside from HSLD units and some MP units, handgun training is a non-starter in the  US army and always has been.

hmmm, does the PM9 have a grip safety?  thats a good alternative to the thumb safety as well.

Quoted: Quoted: 1. People who are mandated to by thier agency,job, whatever. 2. People who lack confidance in thier ability to handle thier firearms, and their firearme itself in some cases. 3. The Israelis do it too! Get an airsoft gun and practice drawing it, chambering it and firing it before a buddy can charge across the room and stab you with a rubber knive or whatever. Personally I always carry a round chambered. If you need a pistol things are going to be happening too fast to chamber a round.

Yah um Aimless the Israelis are covered under 1. Mandated by agency, job, whatever. In fact thats why I even put number one there was because they are the only ones I can think of that are mandated to carry sans round in the chamber when not on active patrols/mission.

I actually don't think anyone should carry with an empty chamber unless thats the only way they are allowed to carry. I have a friend who doesn't care if I carry at her house, just not one in the pipe(cuz of the youngin' likes ta rough house with me when I stop over.)

Even though I don't normaly carry my gun that way I still practice the whole procedure because ya never know when yer going to get stuck with something like that(well I do I'm stuck with it whenever I stop over at thier house). On a good day I can do it all in less then 2 seconds(and were talkin like 1.95-1.99 average time however is about 2.25seconds(from IWB with having to clear a cover garment). From a drop leg or belt holster it's almost just as fast as a regular draw with a chambered round. But when oyu have to push back tht jacket or pull a shirt out of the way it takes a lil' bit to get that hand up and on the slide to rack it.

I've seen first hand how it COULD be a bad thing to have to rack that slide on the draw. I drew on a fuckstik in my backyard as soon as I saw a weapon in his hand, while I was drawing he took of running, it's 15ft from where he was to where he had to go to get out of my yard. If he'd have run at me I'd have fired the first round when he was about 5-10ft in front of me(it was about 25ft from where he was standing to where I was.)

I've also done(and am rather fond of) the here take this airsoft gun and draw and shoot me as I run at you with this toy knife from 21 feet. The lesson I shoot(pun intended) for is three fold, one get off the line of attack, two the whole 21ft rule thing, three carrying a gun with an empty chamber makes you a dead man nothing more nothing less.

Of the three people I did that with none of them "shot"  me before I "knifed" them. And this was with a "round chambered". When we added the step of chambering a round it wasn't even close they were all just dead. When we reversed the roles none of them got to me before I got a shot off, I however had the benifit of haveing taken a tactical pistol class with DETC and when I draw, I step off the line of attack (or as Yeager and the guys at TR say "get off the X") and forced them to have to react to me. Gave me just enough time to get the gun out and on target and pull the trigger, but in all three of those cases I still caught the knife at the end of it becuase they were close enough that I only got off on average 3 "rounds".  

When I did the draw,rack, shoot thing I still managed to get off at least one round into each of them. But as I said I practice that draw,rack shoot technique(do at least 10-20 reps of it everytime I dry fire). That included taking that setp off the line of attack. That extra step of racking the slide was enough, even with stepping off the line of attack, that my average number of shots before catching that knife went from 3 rounds to 1.5 rounds effectivly half the rounds as with a round in the chamber to begin with.

The major point being that most people don't practice enough with thier standard draw, let alone a lot of other things, to be able to draw get and fire thier weapon effectivly on a charging attacker if that attacker is anywhere from 20-30 feet away and comming at them. To add that extra step of racking the slide to charge the weapon and a fuck load of stress and you have a tragedy waiting to happen.

Part of this is owed to lack of taining, and also the "I've been shooting all my life I know how to use a gun" mantality. All three of the people I've gone through this stuff with fell into that "i've been shooting all my life I know what I'm doing" frame of mind. None of them will take a shooting class to this day. I pretty much showed them flat out that they would all be dead men if they had to use thier guns but they still insist that they know how to shoot and will be just fine if the need to use thier gun ever arises. Hey some people will see the light and some won't.....

I am of the opinion that if you don't feel safe carrying with a round in the chamber then you need to not carry until you do because it is a confidance issue. Something deep down inside of you is saying hey I don't feel safe doing it this way, thats a mindset thing, and not feeling safe" with a loaded self defense gun screams lack of proper mindset.

* use of the word you dosn't actually mean you Aimless  

Dont listen to anybody on the internet, just do what you are comfrotable with. this is about you and your life NOT theres....................some of these people need to STFU.

Quoted: Dont listen to anybody on the internet, just do what you are comfrotable with. this is about you and your life NOT theres....................some of these people need to STFU.

I'd like to point out that he brought the topic up.  It's not like arfcom called him up one night and started sharing opinions or anything.

Quoted: Quoted: Unchambered and Smart Carry may as well be no gun at all, seriously Give me a break, that's the kind of gung ho shit people love to say but it's bull.  Maybe if you drew down you would need to fire immediately, most of the accounts you hear about indicate plenty of time to give a warning much less rack the slide which only takes a split second.  I'm not saying unchambered is better than not, yeah it's a disadvantage, but saying it makes concealed carry worthless is silly.

Have you ever tried some force on force training? In the middle of a conversation, the OPFOR draws down. If you are trained, you will be shooting before you realize consiously that he has a weapon. It's fast.

Mine is always chambered.

LB

Quoted: Quoted: Q: How many police officers in the US have carried a semi-auto chambered? Q: How many AD's do you think that have had from a gun while in the holster without pulling the trigger? (I use police officers because they carry most frequently) I bet you have a 10 times higher chance of winning the lottery than you do shooting yourself in the leg. So next time your carrying your piece unchambered, stop by the gas station, you're odds are better there. I have to disagree on the percentage of ADs.  Either way though, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with say a rigid holster on my hip/thigh but I'm not going to use one of these for CCW carry. When you are using pocket holsters, SmartCarrys, even IWB holseters etc... the chances of an AD goes up exponentially.  Yeah it doesn't go bang unless the trigger is pulled but it can still be pulled as gaspain and many others experienced.  People can call it a ND or whatever but that's looking for blame and I don't care who is to blame if my nuts are shot off.  People have brain farts, I know I'm not immune to them.

What the hell are you talking about? My IWB covers my trigger, there is no way that trigger is getting pulled unless the gun copmes out of the holster and I pull the trigger. It's not carrying the gun in a hoslter or non propper holster where chances of an ND go up exponentially.

Quoted: Dont listen to anybody on the internet, just do what you are comfrotable with. this is about you and your life NOT theres....................some of these people need to STFU.

And who in particular do you think needs to STFU? At least have the balls to say who needs to STFU if yer going to say people need to STFU.

An unchambered gun is worthless in most situations you may encounter on the street.  If I'm in my car I may carry unchambered, but otherwise it's condition 1.

As citizens it's an immediate threat you will face, and the guy ain't waiting for you to cock your gun.

I too was where you are once, so take the following advice:

Learn to trust your real safety... "your finger."
Learn to trust your gun. If you don't, get another.
Learn that cross draw, shoulder holsters, and your crotch, isn't the best place for your sidearm.  Put it on your side.  3, 4, 5, or anywhere between there... whatever twinks your melon.

Practice drawing from concealment.
Practice reloading.
Practice shooting.
Practice patience.

Master all that and you'll be golden.

Quoted: An unchambered gun is worthless in most situations you may encounter on the street.  If I'm in my car I may carry unchambered, but otherwise it's condition 1. As citizens it's an immediate threat you will face, and the guy ain't waiting for you to cock your gun. I too was where you are once, so take the following advice: Learn to trust your real safety... "your finger." Learn to trust your gun. If you don't, get another. Learn that cross draw, shoulder holsters, and your crotch, isn't the best place for your sidearm.  Put it on your side.  3, 4, 5, or anywhere between there... whatever twinks your melon. Practice drawing from concealment. Practice reloading. Practice shooting. Practice patience. Master all that and you'll be golden.

Good post.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Q: How many police officers in the US have carried a semi-auto chambered? Q: How many AD's do you think that have had from a gun while in the holster without pulling the trigger? (I use police officers because they carry most frequently) I bet you have a 10 times higher chance of winning the lottery than you do shooting yourself in the leg. So next time your carrying your piece unchambered, stop by the gas station, you're odds are better there. I have to disagree on the percentage of ADs.  Either way though, I'd feel perfectly comfortable with say a rigid holster on my hip/thigh but I'm not going to use one of these for CCW carry. When you are using pocket holsters, SmartCarrys, even IWB holseters etc... the chances of an AD goes up exponentially.  Yeah it doesn't go bang unless the trigger is pulled but it can still be pulled as gaspain and many others experienced.  People can call it a ND or whatever but that's looking for blame and I don't care who is to blame if my nuts are shot off.  People have brain farts, I know I'm not immune to them.   What the hell are you talking about? My IWB covers my trigger, there is no way that trigger is getting pulled unless the gun copmes out of the holster and I pull the trigger. It's not carrying the gun in a hoslter or non propper holster where chances of an ND go up exponentially.

You are, of course, correct.  He obviously has little to no experience carrying or handeling firearms.  Every few months someone like this shows up and thinks he knows what he is talking about and the other 99% of us are wrong.

This is one of the top three dumbest questions that I get really tired of answering.
So, in an attempt to make my life a little easier:

Quoted: my Keltec doesnt have a safety. I dont keep one in the pipe. I have accidentaly pulled the trigger with it in my pocket(a stick jabbed it), if there was a round in the chamber it would have fired. take that for what its worth

Not using a simple paddle or pocket holster is not an excuse.  Who realy thinks a cocked & locked gun floating around in your pocket is safe?


As for that AD with the Glock in its holster, I would think that the draw string has posed a problem before when holstering, but it is an otherwise "freak" accident.

Quoted: Quoted: my Keltec doesnt have a safety. I dont keep one in the pipe. I have accidentaly pulled the trigger with it in my pocket(a stick jabbed it), if there was a round in the chamber it would have fired. take that for what its worth Not using a simple paddle or pocket holster is not an excuse.  Who realy thinks a cocked & locked gun floating around in your pocket is safe? As for that AD with the Glock in its holster, I would think that the draw string has posed a problem before when holstering, but it is an otherwise "freak" accident.

a holster defeats the purpose of the keltec. The keltec is light, small and effective. It is small enough to carry in a swimsuit if you needed to. Any holster is going to add to weight and bulk. I would rather have a pistol on me that I have to rack the slide once than leaving it a home because carrying it was a burden due to weight and bulk. And believe me having to rack the slide is no big deal, im pretty quick.

Flame away. But i'll keep doing what I do because im comfortable with it and I can rack a slide in mere milli-seconds.

Seems like if your going to carry, it makes more sense to have one chambered.

But if safety is an issue you could always use the Barney method.

Quoted: What the hell are you talking about? My IWB covers my trigger, there is no way that trigger is getting pulled unless the gun copmes out of the holster and I pull the trigger. It's not carrying the gun in a hoslter or non propper holster where chances of an ND go up exponentially.

You mean like this one?