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Posted: 2/6/2006 6:09:22 AM EDT
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:13:43 AM EDT
I do the same thing. I'll catch myself jerking (instead of squeezing) the trigger.

For me , it's just concentration on mechanics.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:15:20 AM EDT
What else can you tell us? are you jerking the trigger? Are you flinching? (don't worry, we won't make fun of you if you are...)

I will assume you're keeping the correct eye open, though if you have the sights aligned properly even that doesn't matter...
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:16:20 AM EDT
There is a chart somewhere that is in the shape of a target that indicates what needs to to be corrected based on where your shots are grouping.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:16:24 AM EDT
Is it remotely possible that BOTH might need adjusting? They would have different ergonomics, ammo, etc. so there are some other variables, but if they both continued to perform as before, tweek the sights.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:17:57 AM EDT
You're jerking the trigger, but with consistency. To cure this problem the best thing you can do is get a .22 pistol and put a lot of rounds downrange focusing on the fundamentals, breathing, sight picture, consistent trigger pressure through the squeeze, etc.

You may also have a bad grip on the weapon causing your finger to travel other than straight back.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:18:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:20:13 AM EDT by TravisJ1]
I would guess you are "pulling the trigger" instead of "squezzing" it. Practice dry firing 'till you can do it without seeing the front of the barrel moving.

May also be some flinching involed, dry firing will help that too!
Good luck!

Travis


Editted for spelling and.........

God damn!! I type slow!!!

You all beat me to it!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:21:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:21:53 AM EDT
Here ya go.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:22:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:23:53 AM EDT by TravisJ1]

Originally Posted By Wave:
For a righty shooter-

Groups too far to the right...too much trigger finger

Groups too far to the left..."thumbing" the gun





Explain "thumbing" please.

Thank you

Travis


Nevermind, CS223's post did it, I was too slow again!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:29:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:29:40 AM EDT by mjohn3006]
Hold the gun like this:


Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:31:23 AM EDT
A great exercise is to go shooting with a friend.

Have them load your firearm at the firing line, out of your view. Then, you pick it up, aim, and fire. The trick is for your partner to randomly load it, or leave it unloaded. You would be amazed how badly some people flinch when there is no boom!
I used to do the same thing with a revolver. 2 live, 1 spent, 1 live, 2 spent. Just close your eyes while closing the cylinder.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:32:49 AM EDT

What else can you tell us? are you jerking the trigger? Are you flinching? (don't worry, we won't make fun of you if you are...)

I will assume you're keeping the correct eye open, though if you have the sights aligned properly even that doesn't matter...




Well...I am trying to shoot with both eyes open and concentrate on just the front sight. Something else I noticed with the Glock...when I hold the gun up to shoot, the front sight is not lining up naturally, rather it is sitting over to the left a bit. In order to get the correct sight picture I have to slightly twist the front of the gun over -this is very slight but enough that it is unconfortable in my wrist area in just the slightest way. With the commander lenght 1911 the sight picture is perfect all by itself.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:35:39 AM EDT
I'm in the "too little trigger finger" category. Can someone tell me what is too little trigger finger?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:39:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:46:01 AM EDT
good advise in this thread. tag for later reading
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:49:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 6:50:04 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]



Link Posted: 2/6/2006 6:49:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Hold the gun like this:
nullbits.foxxz.net/albums/Icons/jack.sized.jpg


imagescommerce.bcentral.com/merchantfiles/4955449/After%20Dinner%20Cup%20&%20Saucer.jpg



Yep, I noticed that too.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:10:47 AM EDT
Allright, I give. What is the relevence between the cup and saucer picture?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:27:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 7:28:46 AM EDT by SP10]
Jack may be a badass but he could use some proper pistol training.

His support hand is "cupping" the pistol and offers virtually no recoil support.

Here is a pic of a weaver stance a little better executed:


isosceles



I wasn't able to find a good picture of the "thumb over thumb" grip that I like.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:31:15 AM EDT
Concentrate on sight alignment. Just make sure the front post is centered up in the rear sight the way it’s supposed to be. Then, while concentrating on sight alignment, watch for the muzzle flash.

If you see the muzzle flash then your didn’t blink. I tend to flinch a bit and end up shooting low and left. Concentrating on the muzzle flash cured me of that problem.

I figured that trick out when I was failing to shoot bowling pins at a local range’s weekly competition a few years back. Just watching for the muzzle flash improved my accuracy tremendously.

Give it a try.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:33:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?


Sight allignment.
Also,it could be that these two guns needed their sights moved. It can happen. None of the handguns I've owned put them EXACTLY where I wanted them to go. There was always some adustment needed.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:34:43 AM EDT
bench the gun...
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:36:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 9:08:58 AM EDT by coondog]

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
Allright, I give. What is the relevence between the cup and saucer picture?


Holding the gun in one hand and placing your other under it. The hand holding the gun is the cup where the other hand under is the saucer.
Cup=hand holding the gun.
Saucer=hand under the gun.
I'd also add practice. It takes most people some time to become good with a handgun. If I don't practice regularly,it will take a a few magazines before I'm hitting where I want to.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:40:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

What else can you tell us? are you jerking the trigger? Are you flinching? (don't worry, we won't make fun of you if you are...)

I will assume you're keeping the correct eye open, though if you have the sights aligned properly even that doesn't matter...




Well...I am trying to shoot with both eyes open and concentrate on just the front sight. Something else I noticed with the Glock...when I hold the gun up to shoot, the front sight is not lining up naturally, rather it is sitting over to the left a bit. In order to get the correct sight picture I have to slightly twist the front of the gun over -this is very slight but enough that it is unconfortable in my wrist area in just the slightest way. With the commander lenght 1911 the sight picture is perfect all by itself.




Just a thought, try closing your weak eye (assuming you're a right hander, close the left eye) and having at it again.

Personally, I don't shoot well with both eyes open- or at least, consciously open. I wonder if that's messing your aiming up.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:45:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CS223:
Here ya go.

www.tackdriver.com/pix0703/correction.jpg



What distance is that target for? 21'? Does it matter?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:47:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
For a righty shooter-

Groups too far to the right...too much trigger finger

Groups too far to the left..."thumbing" the gun



Thumbing? 'Splain Lucy. Is that too much pressure with the off hand on the slide?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:52:40 AM EDT

Just a thought, try closing your weak eye (assuming you're a right hander, close the left eye) and having at it again.

Personally, I don't shoot well with both eyes open- or at least, consciously open. I wonder if that's messing your aiming up.




I'm actually right handed but left eye dominant.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 7:59:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:21:40 AM EDT by GerberSchwintz]
tagged because I consistently shoot left with any handgun.

ETA I'm left eye dominant and right handed like a lot of y'all.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:03:19 AM EDT
The "too little trigger finger" generally means that you're not getting good, even pressure on the trigger from your finger. That is usually caused by rotating your finger too far around and using your finger tip to pull the trigger. The opposite extreme is when you have the trigger sitting in the first joint on your finger. The proper location is somewhere in the middle with having the pad of your finger on the trigger. You will need to play around with where the optimum point is.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:04:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?




Well, with your 1911 you said you went right of POA.

Then, with the Glock you said you went left of POA.

It is possible that both sights are off since you are not missing consistently.

Get another shooter to try the guns.

If they are on target, you know it's not the gun.

Concentrate on sight alignment and FOLLOW THROUGH. Some folks don't realize that it isn't good enough to start with a good sight picture. It must be maintained. Regardless of what error makes you come off target, you should SEE it happen first. You should realize your sight alignment is changing and be able to call the shot.

You didn't mention what distance you were shooting at, but start up close. Very close. Increase distance as your groups (on target) tighten.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:05:27 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:06:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Just a thought, try closing your weak eye (assuming you're a right hander, close the left eye) and having at it again.

Personally, I don't shoot well with both eyes open- or at least, consciously open. I wonder if that's messing your aiming up.




I'm actually right handed but left eye dominant.



Me too! It's a bitch, huh? You learn anything special to deal with it?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:07:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?




Well, with your 1911 you said you went right of POA.

Then, with the Glock you said you went left of POA.

It is possible that both sights are off since you are not missing consistently.

Get another shooter to try the guns.

If they are on target, you know it's not the gun.

Concentrate on sight alignment and FOLLOW THROUGH. Some folks don't realize that it isn't good enough to start with a good sight picture. It must be maintained. Regardless of what error makes you come off target, you should SEE it happen first. You should realize your sight alignment is changing and be able to call the shot.

You didn't mention what distance you were shooting at, but start up close. Very close. Increase distance as your groups (on target) tighten.



That is part of my problem, but how do you control the blinking?
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:14:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pcsutton:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:

Just a thought, try closing your weak eye (assuming you're a right hander, close the left eye) and having at it again.

Personally, I don't shoot well with both eyes open- or at least, consciously open. I wonder if that's messing your aiming up.




I'm actually right handed but left eye dominant.



Me too! It's a bitch, huh? You learn anything special to deal with it?



Me three. You can (1) put a small bit of tape over your left glasses lens, just enough to screw up your left eye and cause your right eye to take over or (2) shoot left handed. That's what I did. I found out my problem when I decided to practice weak hand. WTF, I shot BETTER than RH? So I did an eye dominance drill and found out I'm left eye dominant. Now I can't shoot for poo RIGHT handed!
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:22:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:
I wasn't able to find a good picture of the "thumb over thumb" grip that I like.


Is that the one where you point both thumbs downrange with your right thumb over top your left thumb? I really like that grip, but with small hands it becomes a pain.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:45:28 AM EDT
Essentially. This grip was made for a 1911, but takes a little getitng used to

Also, your support hand fingers stay OFF the triggerguard and firmly locked around your strong hand. More control.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 8:56:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/6/2006 8:56:50 AM EDT by criley]

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?




Well, with your 1911 you said you went right of POA.

Then, with the Glock you said you went left of POA.

It is possible that both sights are off since you are not missing consistently.

Get another shooter to try the guns.

If they are on target, you know it's not the gun.

Concentrate on sight alignment and FOLLOW THROUGH. Some folks don't realize that it isn't good enough to start with a good sight picture. It must be maintained. Regardless of what error makes you come off target, you should SEE it happen first. You should realize your sight alignment is changing and be able to call the shot.

You didn't mention what distance you were shooting at, but start up close. Very close. Increase distance as your groups (on target) tighten.



That is part of my problem, but how do you control the blinking?



I take it you are closing your eyes when you pull the trigger?

A few things....

Use a small caliber and/or a heavy pistol - a bull barrel .22 target pistol if you have one, or a heavy 9mm.

Use ear plugs AND muffs.

And before you go to the range, take an empty pistol (check it to be sure, check it again - and the third time is a charm) into a room where you have no ammo and dry fire the thing a hundred times or so.

Dry firing will help you not to blink or anticipate recoil/muzzle flip.

ETA: don't dry fire .22s
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:02:50 AM EDT

I'm actually right handed but left eye dominant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Me too! It's a bitch, huh? You learn anything special to deal with it?



Not yet. Been trying the both eyes open, focus on the front site only technique with not a lot of success.

Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:04:14 AM EDT

Well, with your 1911 you said you went right of POA.

Then, with the Glock you said you went left of POA.




Sorry about that, major mistake (so much for proof reading)...the 1911 is putting them in the same spot as the Glock is -wide left.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 9:04:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By richardh247:

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
I took a 1911 out 2 weeks ago and was shooting great groups, only problem was they were 4 or 5 inches to the right of the bullseye. I thought it must be the sights and figured I'd adjust them another day.

Yesterday I took a new Glock 19 to the range and same thing. Good groups, but all to the left of the bulleyes about 4 or 5 inches. So it isn't the sights, it has to be me.

What's causing me to go so wide left? and how can I correct it?




Well, with your 1911 you said you went right of POA.

Then, with the Glock you said you went left of POA.

It is possible that both sights are off since you are not missing consistently.

Get another shooter to try the guns.

If they are on target, you know it's not the gun.

Concentrate on sight alignment and FOLLOW THROUGH. Some folks don't realize that it isn't good enough to start with a good sight picture. It must be maintained. Regardless of what error makes you come off target, you should SEE it happen first. You should realize your sight alignment is changing and be able to call the shot.

You didn't mention what distance you were shooting at, but start up close. Very close. Increase distance as your groups (on target) tighten.



That is part of my problem, but how do you control the blinking?



I take it you are closing your eyes when you pull the trigger?

A few things....

Use a small caliber and/or a heavy pistol - a bull barrel .22 target pistol if you have one, or a heavy 9mm.

Use ear plugs AND muffs.

And before you go to the range, take an empty pistol (check it to be sure, check it again - and the third time is a charm) into a room where you have no ammo and dry fire the thing a hundred times or so.

Dry firing will help you not to blink or anticipate recoil/muzzle flip.

ETA: don't dry fire .22s



Will do. Thank you sir. Yes, I naturally close my eyes in anticipation of the "bang" and I need out of that habit. Sounds like dry fire practice is the ticket.
Link Posted: 2/6/2006 10:59:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Will do. Thank you sir. Yes, I naturally close my eyes in anticipation of the "bang" and I need out of that habit. Sounds like dry fire practice is the ticket.



Well, I sure hope it helps some. If I notice myself anticipating at the range, I unload and dry fire a while. It helps me.

It also helped me to realize that I cannot stop muzzle rise. I think sometimes we put the idea in our head that we can actually stop the flip from happening. We can't. We can reduce it, and even minimize it to a great degree. But when we think we might be able to stop the flip, it seems we tend to jerk the muzzle just before we break the trigger.

It helped me at one point to let the muzzle go where it wanted to go. I didn't limp wrist the pistol, I kept my wrist firm, but I had a mind set that I was not going to do anything other than maintain a firm wrist and let her go. Groups tightened right up.
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