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Posted: 2/5/2006 2:27:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 2:54:14 PM EDT by SpecialOperator]
To all,

Today I took out to the range:
Beretta 92FS
Bushmaster AR-15 (Looks just like M16A2. Fixed stock)
Yugo SKS w/ G. Launcher

SKS - Performed flawlessly. It was brand new without having been issued or fired. Fed Silver Bear and American standard with no issues. Accurate, light, solid, and fun to shoot. It really tosses the spent brass! They'd fly 6-8' over my head. Made the water jugs dance. Couldn't be happier with it. Convinced three guys to buy their own. Shot better with bayonet extended.

Beretta 92FS - Solid pistol, fed WWB without issue. Accurate enough, but didn't have enough OOMPH for me. Blew apart some golf balls at 15 paces.

AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber? Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using new Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine. SPORTS didn't help. Magazine manufacturers unknown save one factory Colt. AR was well lubed, ring status unknown. Was not my rifle.

Finally, it jammed up one time and I couldn't get the safety off "Fire". Had to knock out the pins and drive a rod down the barrel to free the bolt group.

I was shocked.

Sure, this isin't representative of all ARs (maybe the ammo?) but even the owner (a Marine) said he would be carrying an M1A to Iraq when he deploys. Fun rifle, not worth the money or the trouble. I'd have to try it again, and I plan on it. It's a great rifle to shoot! Maybe this one had an issue.


Guys, honestly, if you think I'm a jerkoff for saying I didn't like this Bushy, that's fine. I'm not trying to piss anyone off here, I'm just calling it like I see it.

::Puts on flame suit::

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:29:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:
To all,

Today I took out to the range:
Beretta 92FS
Bushmaster AR-15 (Looks just like M16A2. Fixed stock)
Yugo SKS w/ G. Launcher

SKS - Performed flawlessly. It was brand new without having been issued or fired. Fed Silver Bear and American standard with no issues. Accurate, light, solid, and fun to shoot. It really tosses the spent brass! They'd fly 6-8' over my head. Made the water jugs dance. Couldn't be happier with it. Convinced three guys to buy their own. Shot better with bayonet extended.

Beretta 92FS - Solid pistol, fed WWB without issue. Accurate enough, but didn't have enough OOMPH for me. Blew apart some golf balls at 15 paces.

AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber? Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine. SPORTS didn't help.

Finally, it jammed up one time and I couldn't get the safety off "Fire". Had to knock out the pins and drive a rod down the barrel to free the bolt group.

I was shocked.

Sure, this isin't representative of all ARs (maybe the ammo?) but even the owner (a Marine) said he would be carrying an M1A to Iraq when he deploys. Fun rifle, not worth the money or the trouble.

I'll stick with Soviet Bloc weapons for now.

::Puts on flame suit::




I wouldnt even know where to start.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:29:18 PM EDT
Not a real "Range Report".
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:29:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:


AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber? Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine.




yeah, it must be the ar15...
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:30:33 PM EDT
You gun is not working properly. Get it fixed. Hundreds of not thousands of member's AR's here run fine all day long even with wolf ammo.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:32:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Not a real "Range Report".



Fixed.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:34:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:35:47 PM EDT
for a special operator you dont know much about an AR15 if you werent aware of how the AR15 recoil system works.

that being said, was the rifle lubed? were the gas rings worn out? there was something wrong with it if it wouldnt cycle wolf
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:37:44 PM EDT
Get an AK. It won't jam.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:37:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
You gun is not working properly. Get it fixed. Hundreds of not thousands of member's AR's here run fine all day long even with wolf ammo.



And there are a number of us here who's ARs do not work well with Wolf. My 20" Bushmaster does not cycle reliably (short strokes) with Wolf but my M4orgery built using a J&T kit works perfectly with Wolf.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:38:40 PM EDT
Well...

If you don't like it, get rid of it.

We have no idea what level of maintenance the AR has had, old Wolf? how many mags?

I'm not gonna tell you what to shoot, but if one rifle doesn't live up to your expectaions,
get something else...
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:39:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 2:40:01 PM EDT by LonePathfinder]

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
You gun is not working properly. Get it fixed. Hundreds of not thousands of member's AR's here run fine all day long even with wolf ammo.



And there are a number of us here who's ARs do not work well with Wolf. My 20" Bushmaster does not cycle reliably (short strokes) with Wolf but my M4orgery built using a J&T kit works perfectly with Wolf.



I didn't say all, did I. I basically said lots.

Edit: Your bushy can be made to reliably fire wolf.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:42:48 PM EDT
Horseman, it's a screen name, not a resume.

The AR was very well lubed. Gas rings are an unknown. It was not my rifle. The guy takes care of his weapons very well, to the best of my knowledge. He has several dozen. I don't know much about AR-15s because I have not shot one before today.

He told me before we went to shoot that "This AR-15 will jam at least three times today". It fired approximately 120 rounds without any issue whatsoever (I burned 60 myself) and then it started acting up. Failures to feed, etc.

Range conditions were not optimal. Extremely fine sand blowing, very dusty.

I am not trying to be a troll, I realize this is but one representation of millions of rifles, however based on it, I will not consider an AR in the near future.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:44:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
Not a real "Range Report."



Fixed.



pfff. Now, its fixed.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:45:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 2:50:54 PM EDT by MonkTx]
Edit, I'll play nice now.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:47:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MonkTx:
I bet these dipshits are jerking off while they post crap like this.



Hey, just because I didn't like someone's Bushy don't act like I've crapped in your Cheerios!
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:50:10 PM EDT
you dont know shit about the Ar-15, you tried ONE with the cheapest ammo known to man, and have decided they are NO GOOD.... way to go great range report
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:51:14 PM EDT
The rifle is broke.

It is not 100%

Your friend needs to fix it before passing judgement on it.

A properly functioning AR will go 800 to 1k round with no problems.

assuming mags and ammo are ok.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:53:27 PM EDT
If my Ar would only go 1k rounds with out cleaning it, I would 86 it for something that worked
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:58:54 PM EDT
My main AR went 1200+ with no issues and wasn't even close to being dirty enough to act up yet.

I have seen these kinds of problems in many different AR's when Wolf is used. The same people will sit there and say "but it's good ammo!".

Clean that weapon, then go out again but use Winchester white box, Fed M193, or South African M193....and let us know how many rounds you fire before you have problems.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:59:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Edit: Your bushy can be made to reliably fire wolf.




What?
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 2:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 3:01:01 PM EDT by LoginName]

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:


Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber?




That's some loose Wolf ammo brass that failed to eject properly and got stuck inside the buffer tube.
Your buddies POS AR-15 is now totally hosed.

Tell him I'll take it off his hands for $87.00 (I could use a parts gun).

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:05:20 PM EDT
AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber?

The owner/marine didn't tell you that was the buffer cycling?


Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine. SPORTS didn't help.

The owner/marine didn't know his weapon had issues with Wolf?

Finally, it jammed up one time and I couldn't get the safety off "Fire". Had to knock out the pins and drive a rod down the barrel to free the bolt group.

The owner/MARINE didn't know the proper way to clear a jammed AR15 ?

I was shocked. I'm sorta shocked too

Sure, this isin't representative of all ARs (maybe the ammo?) but even the owner (a Marine) said he would be carrying an M1A to Iraq when he deploys. Fun rifle, not worth the money or the trouble.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:05:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:
AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber?



"Operator" unfamiliar with the weapon.


Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using new Wolf .223


Using shitty ammo equals bad day at the range.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:06:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
You gun is not working properly. Get it fixed. Hundreds of not thousands of member's AR's here run fine all day long even with wolf ammo.



And there are a number of us here who's ARs do not work well with Wolf. My 20" Bushmaster does not cycle reliably (short strokes) with Wolf but my M4orgery built using a J&T kit works perfectly with Wolf.



Interesting. My J&T build (20" A4gery) runs 100% with wolf, in fact the only ammo it doesn't like is radway green (stovepipes when bumping it, but works fine slow fire with it). I'm glad my baby likes wolf, I have fed it close to 2K rounds of it.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:16:30 PM EDT
Sounds like you got hold of a broken AR.

Reviews of Wolf ammo are mixed around here, but,
my Bushy 16" will eat it all day long and, not FTF.
I had a few issues with some Lake City bulk packed
junk, but, that's it.

I'd get the AR fixed, or sell it, one.

If you like the SKS better than the AR, cool, but,
that's somthing I've not heard many people say.

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:24:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
Get an AK. It won't jam.



+1
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:27:12 PM EDT
It's not the ammo, it's the rifle and the operator.

Some friends and I put over 3k rds of wolf thru a colt 6400c without a jam over two days.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:32:42 PM EDT
Buncha unknown mags might have something to do with it also.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:33:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBore45:
AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber?

The owner/marine didn't tell you that was the buffer cycling?


Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine. SPORTS didn't help.

The owner/marine didn't know his weapon had issues with Wolf?

Finally, it jammed up one time and I couldn't get the safety off "Fire". Had to knock out the pins and drive a rod down the barrel to free the bolt group.

The owner/MARINE didn't know the proper way to clear a jammed AR15 ?

I was shocked. I'm sorta shocked too

Sure, this isin't representative of all ARs (maybe the ammo?) but even the owner (a Marine) said he would be carrying an M1A to Iraq when he deploys. Fun rifle, not worth the money or the trouble.

I don't think the military has M1A's
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:34:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:


AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber? Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine.




yeah, it must be the ar15...

-



You're right..............it has to be the ammo?!?!?!

you dont know shit about the Ar-15, you tried ONE with the cheapest ammo known to man, and have decided they are NO GOOD.... way to go great range report



It's not the ammo........


Not even worth the effort, some people will never get it!



Travis

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:34:47 PM EDT
I have a Yugo SKS and 2 AR-15 rifles. While I enjoy shooting the SKS, the AR platform is in a different league. The problems you are experiencing with the AR improperly feeding/firing/extracting/doing whatever to the wolf ammo is due to a mechanical problem with the rifle. I had a similar issue with one of mine recently, turned out to be a loose gas key due to improperly torqued screws.

The rifle you were shooting is not indicitive of the full potential of the platform, it would be like driving a busted car and judging the whole line based on that.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:36:30 PM EDT
Last week the Colt LE M-4 jammed twice on me during full auto firing. My mags did not jam, it was my SWAT friends LE mags that he said had a million rounds run through them. FA with an AR is awesome. The MP5 was like driving a cadillac during FA..smooth as silk.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:38:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TravisJ1:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:


AR-15 - Fun to shoot, and fairly accurate. Real fun to rip through a 30 round magazine. Recoil was almost non-existent. Felt something moving inside the stock with each shot. Must be an absorber? Anyway, it would jam up something FIERCE. Using Wolf .223, towards the end of the day it would jam at least once a magazine.




yeah, it must be the ar15...

-



You're right..............it has to be the ammo?!?!?!

you dont know shit about the Ar-15, you tried ONE with the cheapest ammo known to man, and have decided they are NO GOOD.... way to go great range report



It's not the ammo........


Not even worth the effort, some people will never get it!



Travis






Out of the info given the Wolf ammo is the weakest link known, check mags first then try different ammo. I never said wolf ammo wouldnt work in an AR I shoot it in mine occasionally
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:40:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jmindler:


The rifle you were shooting is not indicitive of the full potential of the platform, it would be like driving a busted car and judging the whole line based on that.





THANK YOU!!!



Travis
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:44:43 PM EDT
Can ye SMELL it?


YARRRRR!
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 3:54:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
It's not the ammo, it's the rifle and the operator.

Some friends and I put over 3k rds of wolf thru a colt 6400c without a jam over two days.



+1
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:08:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 4:16:13 PM EDT by SpecialOperator]
Keep in mind that in the original post that I do know that the issue is not indicative of ALL AR-15s. I know that. But, being my first experience with one, it certainly killed a lot of the magic behind the Black Rifle.

Personally, I think the issue was in the magazines. He mentioned finding one on a FEX a month or so ago.

Guys, think of it like a test drive. If you try out a brand new model of a sports car at a dealership and it behaves like crap, sure, it's probably that particular car and not all of them, but don't you think when it came time to whip out your wallet, you'd think extra hard about your decision?

That's how I feel.

This issue requires further testing.

Thank you to the people that read my posts carefully and offered their opinions without attacking me personally. Remember, it's only the internet. Relax.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:09:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2006 4:12:33 PM EDT by HELOBRAVO]

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
for a special operator you dont know much about an AR15 if you werent aware of how the AR15 recoil system works.




My thoughts exactly, There went your leg to stand on.
My AR isn't my favorite weapon. I say that to say this.....stick with the SK, it was made for conscripts.

ETA: "Special Operator", 62 post.....nevermind.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:11:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By blue_bomber:

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
Get an AK. It won't jam.



+1



+2 foot MOA.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:24:50 PM EDT
FYI this IS indicative of how ARs work, which is why there is a major push to replace the 40 (50?) year old AR/M16 platform with the SKS.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:26:24 PM EDT
I know what you should do:

Replace that Bushy with a Colt. Ahh, much better.



My Colt only has one problem:

No matter how well it's oiled, every thirty rounds, that damn bolt locks to the rear. I figured out that if I put one of those new clip thingies in, the gun works again. Mine makes a funny noise in the stock, too. Dunno what it is...

Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:28:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:
FYI this IS indicative of how ARs work, which is why there is a major push to replace the 40 (50?) year old AR/M16 platform with the SKS.





Friggin' mouse gun is just too old a platform.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:29:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoCalJBT:
I know what you should do:

Replace that Bushy with a Colt. Ahh, much better.



My Colt only has one problem:

No matter how well it's oiled, every thirty rounds, that damn bolt locks to the rear. I figured out that if I put one of those new clip thingies in, the gun works again. Mine makes a funny noise in the stock, too. Dunno what it is...




Try sticking one of those belt thingies that holds lot of rounds together in a line, into the hole on the bottom of the gun and see if that works
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:31:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:
Keep in mind that in the original post that I do know that the issue is not indicative of ALL AR-15s. I know that. But, being my first experience with one, it certainly killed a lot of the magic behind the Black Rifle.

Personally, I think the issue was in the magazines. He mentioned finding one on a FEX a month or so ago.

Guys, think of it like a test drive. If you try out a brand new model of a sports car at a dealership and it behaves like crap, sure, it's probably that particular car and not all of them, but don't you think when it came time to whip out your wallet, you'd think extra hard about your decision?

That's how I feel.

This issue requires further testing.

Thank you to the people that read my posts carefully and offered their opinions without attacking me personally. Remember, it's only the internet. Relax.



Sports car anology is good but what if Diesel was stuck in the gas tank instead, and the tires were retreads? It would not show what the car was capable of.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:33:16 PM EDT
Use better ammo. Mine will jam with Wolf once out of every 2 mags. Use ammo that will run at full power. I can't believe a Marine doesn't know how to clear a jam. I can clear my jams in under 2 seconds doing a tap and rack.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 4:40:21 PM EDT
sometimes an AR just needs to have a few bugs worked out. I had one that I built from scratch and was real frustrated with it until I got the issues worked out and then it performed flawlessly
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:18:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Barrelburner:
Get an AK. It won't jam.



Mine does.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=74&t=82134

I guess that I can say that AK's are fun guns, but they aren't worth the effort or expense to keep up?
My Bushy M4 (16inch) ran fine, but with American Eagle not Wolf.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:24:33 PM EDT
I stopped taking this post seriously after the sks was more accurate than the AR15.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:27:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpecialOperator:
Horseman, it's a screen name, not a resume.



Welcome to the only forum on the web that tolerates such stupidity.
Link Posted: 2/5/2006 11:29:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
Buncha unknown mags might have something to do with it also.



+1

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