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Posted: 2/2/2006 5:15:54 PM EDT
Are there a lot of high tech jobs that need filled in the country, or is this a bad idea that is aimed at keeping costs down for corporations through wages?

According to www.computerworld.com/news/special/pages/0,10911,1407,00.html the people that come on these visas make less then an American (13k less per year for IT) and the government makes more money on the application fee (went up 3k+ per application with the last change).

Unless it's a nitch area, I though we had loads of people in these areas (architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, business specialties, accounting, law, theology, and the arts are considered "high tech").

today.reuters.com/investing/financeArticle.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-02-02T190616Z_01_N02193839_RTRIDST_0_BUSH-VISAS-UPDATE-1.XML

UPDATE 1-Bush calls for lifting cap on special H-1B visas
Thu Feb 2, 2006 2:07 PM ET

MAPLEWOOD, Minn., Feb 2 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush on Thursday called on Congress to raise the cap on the so-called H-1B visas that allow companies to fill high tech jobs with foreign workers.

"The problem is, is that Congress has limited the number of H-1B visas," Bush said in a speech.

"I think it's a mistake not to encourage more really bright folks who can fill the jobs that are having trouble being filled in America, to limit their number. So I call upon Congress to be realistic and reasonable to raise that cap," he said.

High-tech businesses have pushed Congress to increase the number of such visas, currently capped at 65,000 per year.

Workers are allowed to stay in the United States for six years.

Some labor groups have opposed an expansion of the program, saying it takes away jobs from Americans.

(Additional reporting by Andy Sullivan)

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:20:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 5:23:03 PM EDT by nightstalker]
Almost all H1-B Visa workers apply for permanent residency green card status. ETA Don't know about citizenship application.

www.answers.com/topic/h-1b-visa
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:22:50 PM EDT
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:40:48 PM EDT
Bad. Cheap labor. Contractor rate in IT (mostly due to offshore) is about 40/hr. Employee rate is now 70/hr. This has flipped in the last 4 years due to offshore. The offshore companies lobby congress to lift the ban because they cannot expland their offshore staff without a liasion onshore. The ratio is about 1-10. There are plenty of Americans to fill those high tech jobs, just not at white castle wages. It's not a brain drain for those countries. It's a massive education program. It will drive American talent in engineering, IT, medicine to look for other opportunities until dangerously high levels of dependence occur. Rugged individuality applies to the work force as well. How many complain about our co-dependence on foreign oil and cheap goods from China. Same deal IMHO.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:43:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 5:44:59 PM EDT by zoom]

keeping costs down for corporations through wages?

No, it raises costs. INS requires you to pay the H-1B visa holder more than you would pay a local worker (assuming you could find one). INS goes to great lengths to make sure that H-1B visa holders are paid more than the local average for the job. Also, when you add-in the legal costs of hiring an H-1B visa holder, it gets very expensive. With the last two we had, INS required us to pay them about $5k more per year than the two people they replaced plus we spent about $6k on legal fees. Obviously we would not have spent $11k more money in just the first year unless we had to. H-1B visa holders are very expensive and are in no way a way to cut costs. They cost much more.

takes away jobs from Americans.

If there are Americans willing to do the job, then obviously the company would hire them because you could pay them less since INS would not require you to pay them more and you wouldn't have to pay the upfront legal fees. Plus, H-1B visa holders are limited to six years on the job. That means that not long after you get the person well trained, they are required by law to return home. That continuous churn of finding employees, paying legal fees to get the visa, and for training can be huge.z
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:18 PM EDT
the wage issue is a non issue since H1B must get paid competent wage, which is listed at the DOL for the type of job....right? not! it is all true, however the company I work for is underpaying two engineers by like $30k/yr!! They did it by selecting job descriptions that *sound* right....but the payscale is way less....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:52:18 PM EDT
I'm mixed on this one myself. While I like the idea of bringing in smart people who want to be here legally rather than letting in any asshole who can outrun, outswim, outjump, there is damage done to our own workers. There is no shortage of educated engineers and computer people here. What there is is a shortage of is young ones who will work for cheap.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:09:56 PM EDT
The way offshoring works is there is someone sent from country X to here. They are the SME/contact point. They get paid the minimum competitive wage required by H1-B. The outsourcing company either has offices in this country or a partner that does. The company that is actually using them for outsourcing is probably paying a reduced rate without the H1-B expense. The outsourcing/offshoring company then places 7-15 employees for $10/hr in their home country and charges the US company 19-23/hr. The person here on H1-B is the loss leader enabling massive profits on the offshore workers. No benefits, no pension, no long-term liablity or loyalty required. The offshore people soak up the technology where they will sell it to Iran or Saudi or China on their next assignment. True mercenaries. Cheap now. Pay dearly later.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:16 PM EDT
I spoke with a guy yesterday who helps companies migrate over to India. He said it is already starting to bite them on the ass. They know the payscale here, so they are increasingly demanding more and more salary. The guy said that even companies that want to come back to the USA end up losing lots of money because of it...they should have stayed here all along instead of moving TWICE.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:57 PM EDT
Free market is a good thing.

Whitey wants a good wage, then he must make himself worthy of it.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:23:47 PM EDT
I'm all for immigrants, as long as the fill out the paperwork and abide the law.

We've got a lot of people from overseas where I work. They mostly have a lot of ethic, and are looking for a chance for themselves and their families.

If somebody has the initiative to get a visa, I welcome them to come.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:36:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:38:54 PM EDT by NeedMoreAmmo]
I have no real problem with qualified H1-B types here, though my company would prefer just to open an office in their home country and leave it at that.

BUT... consider this........

"They're just doing the jobs Americans WANT to do".

Nice to see Jorge has covered all the bases. Now what about the border?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:55:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 7:57:19 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By zoom:

keeping costs down for corporations through wages?

No, it raises costs. INS requires you to pay the H-1B visa holder more than you would pay a local worker (assuming you could find one). INS goes to great lengths to make sure that H-1B visa holders are paid more than the local average for the job. Also, when you add-in the legal costs of hiring an H-1B visa holder, it gets very expensive. With the last two we had, INS required us to pay them about $5k more per year than the two people they replaced plus we spent about $6k on legal fees. Obviously we would not have spent $11k more money in just the first year unless we had to. H-1B visa holders are very expensive and are in no way a way to cut costs. They cost much more.



More from zoom. INS does not require that H-1B visa holders be paid more. That is an outright lie that you completely made up.

You are confusing the “actual” versus the “prevailing” wage:


The “actual” versus the “prevailing” wage: Here, the actual wage is the wage that the company’s compensation department has set for the position for all employees with similar experience and skill. Usually, the prevailing wage is a figure provided by the state’s employment agency which it thinks is an accurate reflection of what other employers are paying for that position. The employer must agree to pay the higher of the two wages.


Which is the same wage your company would pay. So, no, it isn't a higher cost to your company. More .

Link

As far as the legal fees: the employer generally pays for them but is not required to do so. So more lies from zoom.


3. Costs associated with US immigration matters:
The employer will have to discuss with the foreign national whether the company or the applicant will be responsible for the INS filing fees, costs, and legal fees incurred when seeking a work visa or green card. Given that the expenses can be substantial, if the employer is considering offering to pay for these expenses, the employer must weigh the value that the foreign national will provide to the company versus the financial commitment.



Link




takes away jobs from Americans.

If there are Americans willing to do the job, then obviously the company would hire them because you could pay them less since INS would not require you to pay them more and you wouldn't have to pay the upfront legal fees. Plus, H-1B visa holders are limited to six years on the job. That means that not long after you get the person well trained, they are required by law to return home. That continuous churn of finding employees, paying legal fees to get the visa, and for training can be huge.z




More .

It takes only 3 years to get a Green Card ie. permanent residency. Then they can stay here as long as they want. The Green Card expires after 10 years, but it can be renewed as many times as they want. Or you can do the intelligent thing and apply for citizenship after 5 years.

Leave it to zoom for a bullshit story.



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:06:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Horseman:
I'm all for immigrants, as long as the fill out the paperwork and abide the law.

We've got a lot of people from overseas where I work. They mostly have a lot of ethic, and are looking for a chance for themselves and their families.

If somebody has the initiative to get a visa, I welcome them to come.



+1. These folks are doing it the right way. Regardless of what some folks have said in this thread, there is an undeniable shortage of certain jobs out there for qualified applicants, many of which fall under the H-1B category. Don't believe me, try keeping full fledged lab techs stocked in a medical research facility. Nurses, which actually fall under the H-1C category are so hard to come by these days that Hospitals are offering 5-10/K signing bonuses for them.

Someone also said that they paid for the legal fees of their H-1B, I don't know why, it is not required. Legal fees for filling out the paperwork and getting the visa are on the applicant. Also, I have never heard about them having to be paid more. At least a few years ago, all that was "required" from an employer was a letter stating that they are in need of this applicant because there are not enough here to choose from and that there salary is comparable with their skills, education and are competitive. Finally, they are not required by law to return to their home country. They, like many other visa holding professionals can apply for LEGAL residence and eventually naturalization and citizenship. Considering a lot if not most of these folks are coming from a depressed area, do you think they will return or apply for residence?


I spoke with a guy yesterday who helps companies migrate over to India. He said it is already starting to bite them on the ass. They know the payscale here, so they are increasingly demanding more and more salary. The guy said that even companies that want to come back to the USA end up losing lots of money because of it...they should have stayed here all along instead of moving TWICE.


I have heard this also, but it seemed that it was strictly within the realm of IT. Is that accurate? Even if it is, oh well, supply and demand don't ya know.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:08:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheSneak:
I'm mixed on this one myself. While I like the idea of bringing in smart people who want to be here legally rather than letting in any asshole who can outrun, outswim, outjump, there is damage done to our own workers. There is no shortage of educated engineers and computer people here. What there is is a shortage of is young ones who will work for cheap.



That may be true for engineers, but not for doctors. The U.S. doesn't graduate anywhere near the number of doctors that residency programs demand.


One of the most outspoken voices on this topic is Richard "Buz" Cooper, M.D., director of the Health Policy Institute at the Medical College of Wisconsin. Dr. Cooper says his 20-year estimates show that, unless dramatically increased from its current level, the United States physician supply will not be able to meet health care demand, and he recommends that medical school output be increased 35 percent by 2020.


www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/july01/physiciansupply.htm

There are much better articles on this subject you can google yourself, but they will echo the same message.

The dilemma is whether or not you are willing to lower your standards to increase medical school enrollment. I know I wouldn't want that. People bitch about how stupid some doctors are as it is. FWIW, I graduated from a U.S. medical school.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:09:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.



I initially thought the program sucked but I was listening to a scientist talk about and it made me rethink it. This scientist does a lot of foriegn travel to various conferences around the world, he said one of the biggest complaints at those conferences was that the U.S. was "sucking" away all the intellectual talent like a vacuum cleaner with the H1-B visa's.

The Scientist also mentioned in many cultures especially Asian countries, super intellegent people are considered oddballs as they don't fit the norm of "society". While U.S. culture doesn't shun the super intelligent, in fact we welcome it and so much so have H1-B visa's to accomadate talent.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:13:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 8:14:47 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By Rincon_11:
Someone also said that they paid for the legal fees of their H-1B, I don't know why, it is not required. Legal fees for filling out the paperwork and getting the visa are on the applicant. Also, I have never heard about them having to be paid more.



That was zoom lying again. He often makes up shit for no particular reason. I put a link in my post proving it is not a requirement to pay legal fees and that they do not get paid more.

I came here legally and paid for my education with my own funds (family, Canadian loan, savings). I never took a red cent that I didn't have coming to me. Unlike the fucking illegals that are bleeding this country.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:16:09 PM EDT
If we don't, we'll just outsource the jobs, so we may as well bring some taxpayers over here.

*shrug*
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:17:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
This scientist does a lot of foriegn travel to various conferences around the world, he said one of the biggest complaints at those conferences was that the U.S. was "sucking" away all the intellectual talent like a vacuum cleaner with the H1-B visa's.

The Scientist also mentioned in many cultures especially Asian countries, super intellegent people are considered oddballs as they don't fit the norm of "society". While U.S. culture doesn't shun the super intelligent, in fact we welcome it and so much so have H1-B visa's to accomadate talent.



+1

If I have the choice to work in a Socialist Utopia like Canada vs. the U.S., I'll pick the U.S. thankyouverymuch.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:25:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.



I initially thought the program sucked but I was listening to a scientist talk about and it made me rethink it. This scientist does a lot of foriegn travel to various conferences around the world, he said one of the biggest complaints at those conferences was that the U.S. was "sucking" away all the intellectual talent like a vacuum cleaner with the H1-B visa's.

The Scientist also mentioned in many cultures especially Asian countries, super intellegent people are considered oddballs as they don't fit the norm of "society". While U.S. culture doesn't shun the super intelligent, in fact we welcome it and so much so have H1-B visa's to accomadate talent.



American universities steal the elite people from the rest of the world. There is no doubt about that. And we're the better for it. The last paragraph is odd, though. I think it is more correct to say that the US has a huge academic and technical community where those people can find a place to fit in. This isn't true in a lot of the less developed countries. American society is also more accepting of small eccentricities in general, I think.

Immigration policies in general need an overhaul. I don't think there is any disagreement on that. I don't mind allowing skilled and intelligent professionals to immigrate here, but I hate how both they and American citizens are being abused by a lot of those companies.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 8:35:54 PM EDT
I wish we could use the program to bring in school teachers. We could bring in some tough Chinese teachers who would demand order in the classroom and work for 1/3 what teacher's unions member demand.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:59:18 PM EDT

That was zoom lying again. He often makes up shit for no particular reason. I put a link in my post proving it is not a requirement to pay legal fees and that they do not get paid more.

I never said there was a requirement. Why would you post that lie? I said that we paid the expensive legal fees like most(nearly all?) companies do. Besides, how would someone in a foreign country find and work with a local lawyer that has experience dealing with the local INS employees? How many foreigners can afford that large upfront cost? Everyone I have ever talked to that has hired an H-1B visa holder has paid the legal fees.

And, if you have zero experience with something, then maybe you shouldn't post about it much less call BS.z
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:09:53 AM EDT
BAD IDEA, so was NAFTA, GAT, CAFTA, and FTAA

We are using trade laws against our own economy and people.


But that is ok, keep believing that joining the global (third world) economy is a good thing.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 7:14:11 AM EDT

I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

I'd wager most of the companies out there aren't thinking, "gee, I'll hire some non-citizens to save money!" My experience is that you end up spending more. Then you have the cultural issues, vacation time issues, filling out giant freaking stacks of paperwork, paying lawyers to file and track said paperwork.

BELIEVE ME. If there were a qualified citizen, I'd freaking take him!

We've actually hired LESS qualified locals just to avoid the damn headache.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:33:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

I'd wager most of the companies out there aren't thinking, "gee, I'll hire some non-citizens to save money!" My experience is that you end up spending more. Then you have the cultural issues, vacation time issues, filling out giant freaking stacks of paperwork, paying lawyers to file and track said paperwork.

BELIEVE ME. If there were a qualified citizen, I'd freaking take him!

We've actually hired LESS qualified locals just to avoid the damn headache.



Good to here from actual experience. Larger corporations probably have a "scale" advantage whereby the costs of government paperwork are lowered and hiring non-citizens to save money is not really the issue as much as just meeting the competition.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:38:26 AM EDT
"Mr Conservative Republican" NEVER met an immigrant he didn't LOVE!!!
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 10:56:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nightstalker:

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

I'd wager most of the companies out there aren't thinking, "gee, I'll hire some non-citizens to save money!" My experience is that you end up spending more. Then you have the cultural issues, vacation time issues, filling out giant freaking stacks of paperwork, paying lawyers to file and track said paperwork.

BELIEVE ME. If there were a qualified citizen, I'd freaking take him!

We've actually hired LESS qualified locals just to avoid the damn headache.



Good to here from actual experience. Larger corporations probably have a "scale" advantage whereby the costs of government paperwork are lowered and hiring non-citizens to save money is not really the issue as much as just meeting the competition.



We're "medium sized" at ~150 people, privately held. We're probably more attractive to the top talent, not being publicly traded, yet still profitable, than the 'big' companies. So they're probably a bit more desperate for affordable talent than we are.

Outside of my small department, we usually give monster/hotjobs/craigslist/our own website a month for locals, 2-3 months for continental, then Canada and International.

On a completely unrelated note, we're seeing tons of new applicants from Turkey, some with some pretty impressive resumes. I think they're undergoing or about to undergo their own dot.com burst at the moment.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:06:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 11:12:28 AM EDT by Peak_Oil]

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.



I initially thought the program sucked but I was listening to a scientist talk about and it made me rethink it. This scientist does a lot of foriegn travel to various conferences around the world, he said one of the biggest complaints at those conferences was that the U.S. was "sucking" away all the intellectual talent like a vacuum cleaner with the H1-B visa's.

The Scientist also mentioned in many cultures especially Asian countries, super intellegent people are considered oddballs as they don't fit the norm of "society". While U.S. culture doesn't shun the super intelligent, in fact we welcome it and so much so have H1-B visa's to accomadate talent.



You know, this actually makes sense. I'm on my way back through school 'cause I squandered my time and energy when I was younger and dumber. This time I'm going to nursing school. You should see the demographic that's with me. Almost everybody in the class is an immigrant from SE Asia with the exception of a couple of Russians and the odd African (no really, from Africa) or a 2nd generation immigrant.

I've been in class with doctors from India who are here to be nurses because it's a better living here as a nurse than it is in India as a doctor. We're stealing the talent. While this does make competition for good jobs tougher, I'm all for it. Fine, we gotta up our efforts to get ahead, but that's what makes progress happen.

OTOH, outsourcing good jobs to a place that has a cost of living that's less than a tenth of ours... I don't know how you compete with that.

ETA: The kids going to school with me are extremely hard working. They are very dedicated and work very hard to make their way here. I thought it was going to be easy to compete, but these guys are just machines. They compete for the top grade in the class like it was the last glass of water in Death Valley. It's a source of great pride to them to bury me, so I fight back and do my best to bury them.

When we talk about our grades after class, "How'd you do?" "I did OK" means "did you get the A," and "yeah, I got the A but that one chick that was a doctor in India beat me by 2%, so I'm kind of disappointed." So it's pretty stiff competition. As a jab to my countrymen, I gotta say that I'm sort of disappointed that they don't feel the heat so much and are OK with a B.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:34:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
When we talk about our grades after class, "How'd you do?" "I did OK" means "did you get the A," and "yeah, I got the A but that one chick that was a doctor in India beat me by 2%, so I'm kind of disappointed." So it's pretty stiff competition.



Mind taking some photos of the chick?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 11:42:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By Peak_Oil:
When we talk about our grades after class, "How'd you do?" "I did OK" means "did you get the A," and "yeah, I got the A but that one chick that was a doctor in India beat me by 2%, so I'm kind of disappointed." So it's pretty stiff competition.



Mind taking some photos of the chick?



Long as I don't mind shattering the lens, yeah sure.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:17:07 PM EDT
Bad idea over all. See, there is this rule called 'supply and demand'. If there is more demand then there will be more supply. If a shortage of qualified applicants drives the wages up then there will be more people willing to take such job. Govt medaling in this law screws a lot of Americans by DRIVING the wages down for certian skills. Flooding America with forigners who will work for a lot less $ ( yes I know ) will not help us in the long or short run. A fair wage for a job is the way to go. If this plan is sucha good idea why are we not flooding America with forigners to do union jobs?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:26:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 1:41:22 PM EDT by op_rod]

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.




Yeah, but they don't do the last one. I don't care about foreigners, for a variety of reasons. If they work fine, if they don't, we can get rid of them.

But I have consistently seen problems with just that -- bizzaro foreigner politics and personal issues.

Someone needs to take a computer class? With US/Mexican/Canadian guy/gal, send him/her to class. He/she takes class, hopefully improves skills. Foreign guy/gal (expecially Indian/Pakistani)? Maybe, or maybe he/she is deeply offended that you feel his/her skills are lacking and will trash you without any warning (including lying about you, in detail, with great indignation) in a 360 degree review three months later and when you try to sort that out, quit, citing you as the reason. Been there, done that.

Someone needs a vacation? OK, US guy visits family in Arkansas for a week, sees cute sister, chickens. Mexican guy visits family in Guerrero for a week, sees cute sister, chickens. Indian/Pakistani guy/gal wants to take a MONTH off to visit India/Pakistan, wants to work remotely, and doesn't want this to be counted against vacation. Cites "cultural issues" and develops a major attitude problem when you say no. Trashes you in exit interview. You then have to defend yourself with HR, again. Yup, been there, done that.

Need to check references or do a phone interview prior to fly-in in person interview? US/Mexican/Canadian guy/gal, goes fine, shows up, similar deal. Hire or no, references can actually be checked. Indian/Pakistani guy/gal, phone interviewee speaks perfect English, solid skills. In person, English poor, sounds like a different person. References impossible to check. They will invariably suggest that you aren't trying or don't want to. Eventually HR gives up, then you discover that everything has been faked. Been there, done that.

US/Mexican/Canadian guy making inflammatory statements at work? Tell him/her to pipe down and not piss people off (unless they have a point). Statements in question comments like "single mothers are bad people for using day care" said to a single mother with no choice in the matter (now, anyhow) using day care. Not that big a deal. Similar deal with Indian/Pakistani folks? Treated as a cultural insensitivity issue for EVERYONE ELSE and they try to get you nailed with HR for fostering a "hostile work environment". Statements in question things like "All Jews should be killed" and "Americans in Iraq should be killed" and "I would cut your head off back in Pakistan" and "Americans are fundamentally stupid and pretty evil as well". OK, I actually had to get legal to reign in HR at this point -- death threats ARE termination offenses, not a "cultural sensitivity" issue. Been there, done that.

I could go on for a while. I really like where I work now (which is with a ton of foreigners, some Muslim, in fact) because there really aren't any idiots here. The idiocy these days is a whole lot worse than when I started working. Navigating someone else's cultural minefield is a major pain in the ass. I work with Indian guys who flat out will not work with Indian people who have not matriculated from a US institution. I work with a few Pakistani people who have a very, very low opinion of other Pakistanis until pleasantly surprised. I have started to think that they have a very good point.

This is where most of the H1-B folks will be coming from. I am pretty convinced that most of these folks will be a detriment to our way of life. I didn't feel that way ten years ago but I have come around.

We already have enough dumbasses in the US. The "easy visa" programs like the H1-B and the complete lack of visas for people who would present an asset to the US (I can go on about the differences here) are really bad deals. First, deport the illegal aliens, lock down the border, figure out who the hell is here, enforce existing immigration law in letter and intent (which for H1-B visas was NEVER intended to lead to Green Cards). In the meantime, cut off the H1 and L1 programs. Let's fix this before it gets any worse.

EDIT:

To be more specific, it should be easier to get temporary work visas for temporary work where there is a shortage. There really is a shortage of cowboys of any kind, and I can understand bringing in Peruvian cowboys for a season. There is no shortage of lettuce pickers, just an unwillingness to mechanize or pay fair wages. There is no shortage of computer engineers, just a shortage of computer engineers willing to work for $30k a year or less with an MS. If I want to work in Canada or Mexico, I have to jump through some hoops and so does the employing company, and they get scrutinized for this. And it really is a temporary work permit. In the US, it is a comparatively simple process, visas are almost always approved, and they let you get a green card off of it, and there is no attempt made whatsoever to a)punish violations (I know this from experience), b)deport visa overstayers (ditto), or c)to determine that there is an actual labor shortage justifying the visa (ditto). This isn't a good idea, and we should stop it. This is not what Bush is doing, of course, but the welfare of the US has never been all that high on his list of things to do. Things to talk about, sure. Things to do? Down at the bottom.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:34:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 2:55:25 PM EDT by C-4]

Originally Posted By zoom:
I never said there was a requirement. Why would you post that lie? I said that we paid the expensive legal fees like most(nearly all?) companies do.



Lie:


Originally Posted By zoom:
INS requires you to pay the H-1B visa holder more than you would pay a local worker. INS goes to great lengths to make sure that H-1B visa holders are paid more than the local average for the job. Also, when you add-in the legal costs of hiring an H-1B visa holder, it gets very expensive. With the last two we had, INS required us to pay them about $5k more per year than the two people they replaced plus we spent about $6k on legal fees. Obviously we would not have spent $11k more money in just the first year unless we had to. H-1B visa holders are very expensive and are in no way a way to cut costs. They cost much more.



Your words: "Unless we had to." Yes, you did lie. You said you would not have spend $11K unless you had to. You are a liar. Deal with it.


Originally Posted By zoom:
Besides, how would someone in a foreign country find and work with a local lawyer that has experience dealing with the local INS employees?



It's called the internet.


Originally Posted By zoom:
Everyone I have ever talked to that has hired an H-1B visa holder has paid the legal fees.



Oh, you have talked to everyone who hires H-1B visa holders? Didn't think so.


Originally Posted By zoom:
And, if you have zero experience with something, then maybe you shouldn't post about it much less call BS.z



I have enough experience with it to expose you as a liar.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:37:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By op_rod:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.




Yeah, but they don't do the last one. I don't care about foreigners, for a variety of reasons. If they work fine, if they don't, we can get rid of them.



Not after we get Green Cards. And guns.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:43:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NeedMoreAmmo:
I have no real problem with qualified H1-B types here, though my company would prefer just to open an office in their home country and leave it at that.

BUT... consider this........

"They're just doing the jobs Americans WANT to do".

Nice to see Jorge has covered all the bases. Now what about the border?



Crafty. Maybe all the guys at the chicken plant will now have H1-Bs and be legal! Now if they'd just take out auto liability.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:52:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 2:56:35 PM EDT by mattja]

Originally Posted By zoom:
No, it raises costs. INS requires you to pay the H-1B visa holder more than you would pay a local worker (assuming you could find one). INS goes to great lengths to make sure that H-1B visa holders are paid more than the local average for the job.



Oh, please. That is the biggest load of shit. Where do you get this crap?

I hired and managed several H1-B workers at my last job and the company was paying them 30% less than the going rate. I had a girl with an MSCS making $45k a year. The lowest paid US worker was making $70k.

And the INS doesn't do crap. There is no checking up at all.



Also, when you add-in the legal costs of hiring an H-1B visa holder, it gets very expensive.



What legal costs? The majority are hired through bodyshops. There are no legal costs to you.



With the last two we had, INS required us to pay them about $5k more per year than the two people they replaced plus we spent about $6k on legal fees.



How much were you paying the other guys? $20k a year?



Obviously we would not have spent $11k more money in just the first year unless we had to. H-1B visa holders are very expensive and are in no way a way to cut costs. They cost much more.



Complete BS.



If there are Americans willing to do the job, then obviously the company would hire them because you could pay them less since INS would not require you to pay them more and you wouldn't have to pay the upfront legal fees.



God, that BS makes me want to puke.

Unfortunately for you, there are people here who have direct knowledge of the situation and know your post is just bullshit



Plus, H-1B visa holders are limited to six years on the job. That means that not long after you get the person well trained, they are required by law to return home. That continuous churn of finding employees, paying legal fees to get the visa, and for training can be huge.z



The first thing they do when they arrive is find a lawyer and apply for a green card. Some get it, some don't.

In any case, all this stuff about fees is BS. The VAST MAJORITY of H-1B workers are hired through bodyshops and the INS fee is included in the hourly wage the employer pays to the bodyshop.

The fact of the matter is these guys are cheaper. That is what the H-1B is about.

It’s about saving money and weakening the bargaining power of US workers.
It’s about age discrimination in the IT industry.

It has nothing to do with an inability to find workers.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 2:57:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattja:

Originally Posted By zoom:
No, it raises costs. INS requires you to pay the H-1B visa holder more than you would pay a local worker (assuming you could find one). INS goes to great lengths to make sure that H-1B visa holders are paid more than the local average for the job.



Oh, please. That is the biggest load of shit. Where do you get this crap? . . .



Thank you mattja.

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 3:22:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By op_rod:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.




Yeah, but they don't do the last one. I don't care about foreigners, for a variety of reasons. If they work fine, if they don't, we can get rid of them.



Not after we get Green Cards. And guns.



No, I mean that Texas is a right to work state. If were are using a labor shop for the H1-Bs and they don't work out, we are under no more obligation than with a US national to fire or retain. I meant "we" as in my company.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 3:45:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard: I don't mind that program so much. Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them. Brain Drain benefits the US. Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.
Yep! That's how my entire family got here. I think my family's mean income is higher than America in general by now. We'll know for sure by April. Foreigners come here to make MORE money than Americans, then we will breed with your womenz, and in time our differences will be forgotten.

Once we've bred back the lost backbone of the good 'ole USA, we'll turn around, invade, and incorporate our former motherlands into the Union. America stretching across the globe, excellent...
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 3:48:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By op_rod:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.




Yeah, but they don't do the last one. I don't care about foreigners, for a variety of reasons. If they work fine, if they don't, we can get rid of them.



Not after we get Green Cards. And guns.



I got my guns before my green card.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:00:26 PM EDT

The fact of the matter is these guys are cheaper. That is what the H-1B is about.

That is against the law. Period. Have you read it? For us, the INS dictated what we would pay our two new employees. It was $5k more than we paid the two local guys they were replacing after the local guys demonstrated that they simply could not do the job and after 18 months of searching for replacements turned-up no local candidates.

C-4, what is your real agenda? When you rearrange text, intentionally taking things out of context, and build off the wall strawmen arguments, the fact that you are not logical about this topic is very obvious. Why are you acting this way?z
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:13:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.



There is one way to get qualified American's...offer a better starting salary instead of the cheap dot.com bust salaries that companies are offering. The truth of the issue is why pay an American $70k a year when you can get an H1-B foreigner for $40k a year. Right now I have a government IT job it gives me stability but at the cost of good pay. I'm coming up on my 4 year mark with this company and my salary is just getting up to where it was 1 year into a private company 7 years ago. I interviewed with a high growth successful company 5 months ago, guess what they offered me 3% more than my state job even though I knew most their staff and had everything they were looking for. I turned them down. Had they offered a decent salary I would have jumped over to them. No doubt an H1-B visa person was hired to fill that position.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:16:58 PM EDT
If the US suffers from lack of people going into engineering, engineering companies have only themselves to blame.

If I'm a high IQ first year college student, the market reality is the majority of engineering jobs in large corporations are being offshored. This is true for electrical engineering and software engineering. Why would I want to go into a field where the domestic market is declining, the academic challenges are high, and the pay is less than I can make if I pass a series 7 exam or go to med school?

Hell, an electrician makes equivilent money to a 4-year electrical engineer, and you can't offshore electrician work.

Companies are pursuing offshoring for IT because it's advertised as lowering costs in the long run. The company I work at is currently in year 2 of our offshoring, and our costs have gone up significantly, even higher than projections (most offshoring strategies have a multi-year break-even). Every area we've outsourced or offshored has seen a decrease in quality, and an increase in cost. As an added bonus, company morale has been lowered because every group is wondering if they are next. Ultimately, it's bad business in a lot of cases. But a lot businesses are going to fail before they realize that.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 5:18:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 5:19:29 PM EDT by Drakich]

Originally Posted By zoom:

The fact of the matter is these guys are cheaper. That is what the H-1B is about.

That is against the law. Period. Have you read it?



So is hiring illegals. Both happen all the time. It's not what you know, it's what you can prove, and large corporations running techno-serfdoms have legal departments to protect them.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:01:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

I'd wager most of the companies out there aren't thinking, "gee, I'll hire some non-citizens to save money!" My experience is that you end up spending more. Then you have the cultural issues, vacation time issues, filling out giant freaking stacks of paperwork, paying lawyers to file and track said paperwork.

BELIEVE ME. If there were a qualified citizen, I'd freaking take him!

We've actually hired LESS qualified locals just to avoid the damn headache.


I totally oppose any expansion of the H1B visa system. Why? Because it's being abused as it is! At least in the IT field. Companies are firing US workers for no reason other than they are making too much, just so they can bring in a 3rd worlder that makes a fraction of their pay. To add insult to injury the companies then say that "we had to hire an ousider because no American would do the job"

Sure, there may be a shortage of doctors so maybe an expansion of H1B in that field would be beneficial to us. But a blanket lifting of the cap? Hell no, it means qualified Americans will be fired because some babbling indian is willing to work for $5 a day.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:11:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 6:23:30 PM EDT by Rincon_11]

Originally Posted By zoom:

That was zoom lying again. He often makes up shit for no particular reason. I put a link in my post proving it is not a requirement to pay legal fees and that they do not get paid more.

I never said there was a requirement. Why would you post that lie? I said that we paid the expensive legal fees like most(nearly all?) companies do. Besides, how would someone in a foreign country find and work with a local lawyer that has experience dealing with the local INS employees? How many foreigners can afford that large upfront cost? Everyone I have ever talked to that has hired an H-1B visa holder has paid the legal fees.

And, if you have zero experience with something, then maybe you shouldn't post about it much less call BS.z



You are taking a beating so I will leave the gloves on. As far as "How many foreigners can afford that large upfront cost?" I'm not sure, but if you are referring to H-1B Visa applicants, the answer is probably all of them. They are classified as a "Specialty Occupation" and consist of individuals such as Biochemists, Geneticists, Physicists, Soil Scientists, Zooligists, a ton of other "ists", along with Accountants, Labratory Technicians, Etc. So, with the education that they have attained, you can pretty much gather they have the money. You can also assume they are not getting paid sweatshop wages in their home country because of their position. These folks do not work in chicken factories.


Everyone I have ever talked to that has hired an H-1B visa holder has paid the legal fees.


Well, you can now revise this statement as everyone here has told you differently about their experiences with hiring H-1B'ers.

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:22:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By op_rod:

Originally Posted By C-4:

Originally Posted By op_rod:

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
I don't mind that program so much.


Smart talented people want to move here? Good for them.


Brain Drain benefits the US.


Just leave your bizzaro foreigner politics at home.




Yeah, but they don't do the last one. I don't care about foreigners, for a variety of reasons. If they work fine, if they don't, we can get rid of them.



Not after we get Green Cards. And guns.



No, I mean that Texas is a right to work state. If were are using a labor shop for the H1-Bs and they don't work out, we are under no more obligation than with a US national to fire or retain. I meant "we" as in my company.



Got it.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 6:49:32 PM EDT
I'ver heard of more than one worker that trained his own H1-B replacement. He couldn't tell the company to f&*k off because of vacation or severance pay owed.

rj
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:07:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.



There is one way to get qualified American's...offer a better starting salary instead of the cheap dot.com bust salaries that companies are offering. The truth of the issue is why pay an American $70k a year when you can get an H1-B foreigner for $40k a year. Right now I have a government IT job it gives me stability but at the cost of good pay. I'm coming up on my 4 year mark with this company and my salary is just getting up to where it was 1 year into a private company 7 years ago. I interviewed with a high growth successful company 5 months ago, guess what they offered me 3% more than my state job even though I knew most their staff and had everything they were looking for. I turned them down. Had they offered a decent salary I would have jumped over to them. No doubt an H1-B visa person was hired to fill that position.



I'm not sure what you're suggesting. It isn't like we've brought excellent people in, then decided not to hire them because they're asking too much money. It hasn't even gotten that far. I'm just trying to find somebody who can match the skillset. Then we'll talk money.

Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:08:33 PM EDT
As for computer scientist and engineers, there's no shortage. The technology boon of the 80s and 90s is over. There was a time when American companies needed foreigners to fill jobs in order to keep up with labor demands. Now, there's less tech jobs, more applicants.
It might be different for the other professions. Maybe the number of H1-B visas needs to be increased for other professions in dire need.
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 9:09:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kroagnon:

Originally Posted By Jon3:
I'm currently trying to hire people, and am now considering nonresidents. If I could find US Citizens who had the necessary skills, I'd hire them in a heartbeat.

I'd wager most of the companies out there aren't thinking, "gee, I'll hire some non-citizens to save money!" My experience is that you end up spending more. Then you have the cultural issues, vacation time issues, filling out giant freaking stacks of paperwork, paying lawyers to file and track said paperwork.

BELIEVE ME. If there were a qualified citizen, I'd freaking take him!

We've actually hired LESS qualified locals just to avoid the damn headache.


I totally oppose any expansion of the H1B visa system. Why? Because it's being abused as it is! At least in the IT field. Companies are firing US workers for no reason other than they are making too much, just so they can bring in a 3rd worlder that makes a fraction of their pay. To add insult to injury the companies then say that "we had to hire an ousider because no American would do the job"

Sure, there may be a shortage of doctors so maybe an expansion of H1B in that field would be beneficial to us. But a blanket lifting of the cap? Hell no, it means qualified Americans will be fired because some babbling indian is willing to work for $5 a day.




I didn't speak for or against removing the cap. I'm just saying that claims there are plenty of qualified people here to hire have not proven true in my experience.

Plenty of underqualified ones though.

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