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Posted: 2/2/2006 3:12:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:14:58 PM EDT by lippo]
Like I said, "America is spinning out of control"


$32,000 for what? Hurt feelings? OH MY GOD!!!

This country is screwed. And the lawyers are mostly to blame.



www.540wfla.com/cc-common/feeds/view.php?feed_id=495&feed=/news_state.html&instance=1&article_id=59604


A settlement has been reached between the Palm Beach School Board and a student who said he was disciplined for not standing during the Pledge of Allegiance. The board voted Wednesday that public students do not have to recite the pledge or stand for it.

WEST PALM BEACH (AP) It also was decided that a letter from a parent is no longer needed to excuse the student from the pledge. These guidelines follow a federal case law, which says a student cannot be forced to say the pledge or salute the flag, said Gerald Williams, school board attorney. Boynton Beach High School junior Cameron Frazier sued the school board, a teacher and an assistant principal last month. Teacher Cynthia Alexandre called the 17-year-old student "so ungrateful and so un-American" after he twice refused to stand for the pledge in Alexandre's classroom Nov. 8, according to a federal lawsuit. The American Civil Liberties Union represented Frazier. "We live in a free country," said Frazier's attorney James Green. "While patriotism is important, liberty of thought and liberty of expression are even more important." As part of Wednesday's settlement, Frazier will get $32,500 and Alexandre will be reprimanded in writing. Alexandre declined comment Wednesday. All Palm Beach County School District employees must be told of the decision because it contradicts rules printed in the school district's student handbooks. State law says the pledge needs to be recited at the beginning of the day at all elementary, middle and high schools. Frazier is suing the state Board of Education and state Education Commissioner John Winn because he believes that violates the First and 14th amendments to the U.S. Constitution.




Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:13:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:16:49 PM EDT by gonzo_beyondo]
Thats disgusting.
I hope he spends it on crack.


Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to become a citizen of the United States, do you not have to salute the flag and say the pledge?

If thats correct, then I believe ANY person refusing to do so, should have a one-way trip to GITMO for re-patriotization... or something along those lines.

Or just drop em over Afghanistan, or Africa... I'm sure they'll be happier there.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:15:12 PM EDT
Jehovah's Witness' don't do the Pledge. TN also has a black female (of course) state rep who refuses to stand or recite the pledge as well.

While I hold no problem with the religious aspect of not doing it, otherwise I would beat their ass if I were there.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:16:32 PM EDT
Don't worry. His parents will blow it on crack.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:16:57 PM EDT
He got paid. There is nothing more American than that.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:18:17 PM EDT
He needs to take his unpatriotitic ass out of our country and live someplace suited for him. Iraq is in need of people....

Max
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:20:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Don't worry. His parents will blow it on crack.



Yeah, I think they've smoked enough already...
just look at that fine upstanding piece of ungrateful garbage they shit out.

I say send the parents off as well. It's ultimately their fault/responsibility.
Keep the $32,500 for the expense of Re-patriotization.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:21:07 PM EDT
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:21:55 PM EDT
The school authorities are to blame. It was settled about 50 years ago that in a free country the government may not punish people for declining to make or respect public declarations of fealty - even declarations authored by socialist one-worlders.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:25:00 PM EDT
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:28:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 4:00:40 PM EDT by spartacus2002]

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



perhaps the jury felt that while the kid didn't deserve 32K, the school district needed to be "fined" 32K to get the message.

ETA: whoops, missed the pretrial settlement part.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:29:56 PM EDT
i never stood for the pledge in high school. where is my 32 grand?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:31:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



THERE WAS NO JURY. IT WAS A PRETRIAL SETTLEMENT.RIF


But hey, what the fuck, blame the jury. That's what the Readers' Digest and the WSJ do.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:32:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:35:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



If that is the way you feel then feel free to move to another country and do not let the door hit you in the ass as you crawl away.
www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:41:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



If that is the way you feel then feel free to move to another country and do not let the door hit you in the ass as you crawl away.
www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html



It was written by a socialist. It was one-worlder claptrap. America is based on the idea that a man has the right to be left the hell alone, to keep his mouth shut in public, and to pledge allegiance to nothing or to everything without being compelled to tell the neighbors about it.

Tell you what, comrade, you take your compulsory collectivism and your demands for public loyalty oaths, and try not to drown sailing back to whatever third-rate European shithole formed your ideas of what can rightly be demanded of a free man in a republic. Take sunglasses. I hear that the lights at those Nuremburg-style loyalty rallies can be blinding.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:48:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



If that is the way you feel then feel free to move to another country and do not let the door hit you in the ass as you crawl away.
www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html



well, allow me to retort:

1. here's a quote from the very link you sent me: "One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine. " So, SCOTUS already established years ago that the kid didn't have to stand and recite the Pledge.

2. Google Francis Bellamy, and the first thing you get is a short bio explaining in the first paragraph that he was a Socialist who was all for planned economy, etc. http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Maybe I'll move to a country that lacks your totalitarian/authoritarian ideals....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:58:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



perhaps the jury felt that while the kid didn't deserve 32K, the school district needed to be "fined" 32K to get the message.



I don't think it took 32K to get the message but that is my opinion on our court system in general.

And it wasn't the school district that got "fined" it was his neighbors.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:01:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:

Originally Posted By long-rifle-tactical:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



If that is the way you feel then feel free to move to another country and do not let the door hit you in the ass as you crawl away.
www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html



well, allow me to retort:

1. here's a quote from the very link you sent me: "One year after receiving this official sanction, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as part of their daily routine. " So, SCOTUS already established years ago that the kid didn't have to stand and recite the Pledge.

2. Google Francis Bellamy, and the first thing you get is a short bio explaining in the first paragraph that he was a Socialist who was all for planned economy, etc. http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

Maybe I'll move to a country that lacks your totalitarian/authoritarian ideals....[/quote]

A.M.F.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:06:45 PM EDT
I agree with spartacus2002.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:07:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



+1
What would the Founders say?


Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, but in order to become a citizen of the United States, do you not have to salute the flag and say the pledge?

If thats correct, then I believe ANY person refusing to do so, should have a one-way trip to GITMO for re-patriotization... or something along those lines.




People like you fucking scare me.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:10:26 PM EDT
You guys would be throwing a party if he was punished for believing in the 2nd amendment and got a settlement.

Take off the patriot glasses and take a step back.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:13:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



THERE WAS NO JURY. IT WAS A PRETRIAL SETTLEMENT.RIF



Okay, I should have RIF. Shoot me.



But hey, what the fuck, blame the jury. That's what the Readers' Digest and the WSJ do.


I don't read the RD, and only rarely the WSJ.
I see enough of this kind of shit in the news though, that being settlements and awards over virtually nothing. Obviously we hear the most outlandish shit.

I have sat on one jury.
Bailiffs tampered with the jury big time. It was all about trying to smear some guy in family court and the complaintant worked for the Sheriff's Dept. After begging for months she got someone in the Sheriif's Dept to charge the guy. The women jurors were ready to lynch the guy after the jury tampering and even though everyone admitted the prosecution didn't prove its case they decided to screw him. I was the lone dissenter and had some words with the judge afterwards.

Guy's big mistake was representing himself because he let the prosecutor pick the jury. That was huge and i could have told him that based on the jury they picked. I was just looking for a day off and hoping I didn't get picked (only case that month here, if that tells you anything about the county I live in) since I was already out a day's pay. The 3 women wanted him crucified(over nothing) after the female bailiff got them into a little cheerleading huddle, one guy didn't care as long as he could get out for a cigarette and the other just wanted to go with whatever the women wanted. pathetic.

Thje last friend of mine on a jury just completed a case a few weeks ago. She said it was a civil case and the plaintiff was just a big whiner looking for some easy cash. But her and the other jurors decided to give him 15K, "just because..."
F'ing weak.

No, I don't think much of the average jury and I would choose the available alternative.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 4:15:07 PM EDT by 22bad]
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:15:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:17:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 4:20:12 PM EDT by 22bad]

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.



Well, how the F*@k do you suggest we show respect for the people that DIED for our freedom?

eta: there were many years that I disagreed with our .govs methods, motives and actions
that is what the political process is for, participating in the pledge does not indicate blind nationalism
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:19:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.



Well, how the F*@k do you suggest we show respect for the people that DIED for our freedom?



Certainly not by punishing people for exercising their rights. You may think him an ungrateful spoiled kid and you may be right but saying he deserves some kind of punishment goes against everything this country is supposed to be about.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:23:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.



Well, how the F*@k do you suggest we show respect for the people that DIED for our freedom?




Flowers on Memorial Day.

Picking up servicemen's checks anonynously in restaurants.

Giving to the USO.

Allowing our kids to be bullied into reciting half-assed oaths.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:24:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.



Well, how the F*@k do you suggest we show respect for the people that DIED for our freedom?



Certainly not by punishing people for exercising their rights. You may think him an ungrateful spoiled kid and you may be right but saying he deserves some kind of punishment goes against everything this country is supposed to be about.



I am not one to advocate violence casually
I am NOT talking about punishment, I am talking about community mores(standards of behavior)
He is free to walk out of the pledge "area" and stage a protest of whatever nature he wishes
that is his\her right, he does NOT have the right to "spoil" an important event for me and mine
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:29:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 4:33:26 PM EDT by 22bad]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By dolanp:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
IMO the pledge is said(while standing)to show respect for the Soldiers that DIED to
preserve this Country(that you are standing in). If it is too much trouble for you to say the pledge.......fine
If it is too much trouble for you to stand and keep your mouth shut while the AMERICANS
say the pledge, the "village" needs to give you some "raising"(translation: you need a beating)



I thought Americans died for freedom, not blind nationalism.



Well, how the F*@k do you suggest we show respect for the people that DIED for our freedom?




Flowers on Memorial Day.

Picking up servicemen's checks anonynously in restaurants.

Giving to the USO.

Allowing our kids to be bullied into reciting half-assed oaths.



One man's half assed oath is another man's...........

WTF are you talking about? He doesn't have to say the damn oath, just not "pollute" the moment for other people

eta: if he "pollutes" the moment, he is "protesting" the oath. While someone
is giving the oath is NOT the appropriate time to be protesting it, is it?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:33:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.


No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:35:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.


No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



Yeah. Teach them about America. Especially that part about the First Amendment.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:36:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense Deej, but we do that.
Kid is 17 - well above the age of comprehension.
He doesn't feel like standing for the pledge.
That's his choice not to do so.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:37:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
I am as patriotic as a man can be. However, I'm not all about swearing eternal fealty to a government, either. Our system of govt is based on the principle that the citizens own and employ the govt, not the other way around. Think about that, then see if you are still as gung-ho on the Pledge as you are now.

Flame away, but the teacher was wrong.

PS it was written by a Socialist who was looking for a way to energize devotion to the state, and prior to the Nazis the Pledge was recited with a salute that we now call a Hitler Salute.



I agree with you.

Governments can become tyrannies.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:40:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense Deej, but we do that.
Kid is 17 - well above the age of comprehension.
He doesn't feel like standing for the pledge.
That's his choice not to do so.


Really? Not starting shit but it's interesting. I think in the schools I went to, I'd get in trouble if I didn't say the pledge, and in IL it became a law in high schools that you have to say the pledge daily, and also in the grade schools.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:40:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.


No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense taken.
We do need to teach these kids these things but also to be free, excercise their rights, and to be independent thinkers, not drones. Yes, patriotism is important but the Pledge is BS. I have always thought so. It is MO that people show their patriotism by their actions not pledging allegiance, flying the flag all over the place, etc. I show mine by supporting freedom and the Constitution every chance I get. I also served in the military.

And FWIW, I DO question socialist's patriotism.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:47:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.


No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense taken.
We do need to teach these kids these things but also to be free, excercise their rights, and to be independent thinkers, not drones. Yes, patriotism is important but the Pledge is BS. I have always thought so. It is MO that people show their patriotism by their actions not pledging allegiance, flying the flag all over the place, etc. I show mine by supporting freedom and the Constitution every chance I get. I also served in the military.

And FWIW, I DO question socialist's patriotism.


Okay, but I think that we need to at least teach them the Pledge, after all it's said at events, I can think of Boy Scout events for one thing, other events but I can't remember...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:47:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense Deej, but we do that.
Kid is 17 - well above the age of comprehension.
He doesn't feel like standing for the pledge.
That's his choice not to do so.


Really? Not starting shit but it's interesting. I think in the schools I went to, I'd get in trouble if I didn't say the pledge, and in IL it became a law in high schools that you have to say the pledge daily, and also in the grade schools.



I'm not suprised.
I've been to Illinois, Cook County specifically.
The people are nice, but I couldn't but help shake the feeling that I was in a different country.
Daley is a cancer upon the fine state - his socialism is evident in the policies you named.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:50:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

Really? Not starting shit but it's interesting. I think in the schools I went to, I'd get in trouble if I didn't say the pledge, and in IL it became a law in high schools that you have to say the pledge daily, and also in the grade schools.



That is an instant-trash-bin law. There is a reason that free speech was included in the First Amendment.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:50:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By deej86:

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



No offense Doc, but we need to teach our kids about America, and what it means to us, and the pledge, and the flag and all that good patriotic stuff.



No offense Deej, but we do that.
Kid is 17 - well above the age of comprehension.
He doesn't feel like standing for the pledge.
That's his choice not to do so.


Really? Not starting shit but it's interesting. I think in the schools I went to, I'd get in trouble if I didn't say the pledge, and in IL it became a law in high schools that you have to say the pledge daily, and also in the grade schools.



I'm not suprised.
I've been to Illinois, Cook County specifically.
The people are nice, but I couldn't but help shake the feeling that I was in a different country.
Daley is a cancer upon the fine state - his socialism is evident in the policies you named.


I don't know if Daley has anything to do with saying the Pledge. I don't even know if I would get in trouble, it's just speculation. WHen a teacher tells you to do something( I was told this) you do it.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By deej86:

I don't know if Daley has anything to do with saying the Pledge. I don't even know if I would get in trouble, it's just speculation. WHen a teacher tells you to do something( I was told this) you do it.



No thinking for yourself?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:53:43 PM EDT
Look, people in this country have the freedom to do as they please when it comes to freedom of speech, and not repeating the pledge every day is a form of speech, no matter why he chooses not to say it, it is his right not to. It does not matter what I believe because this is about what makes our country great: the ability to choose and not be punished for those choices (if not a crime). If you say that we have freedom of speech, but then say that to be a good American you have to go to church every single sunday, someone would say "Great, a little church will be good for the people." But what does that say to other religions who don't do church on Sunday? Same thing. You are free to own guns, say what you want or don't want to say, practice the religion you want, go where you want, earn money in any (legal) profession you desire, and have as many demonic spawns of satan that you wish, marry the woman you wish, live in any part of the country as you wish, etc because we, as American citizens are given the right to choose to do or not do these things. Take away those rights, and we are no better than the insurgents in Iraq. You may not agree with that kid that didn't stand for the pledge, but you have to agree that even though you don't like what he did, that he has the right to his beliefs just the same as you have the right to yours. If you don't believe that should be the case, you sir, should move to Iran, where you can be told what to say, when to stand, what to believe, where to work, where to live, and who you will marry.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:53:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By deej86:

I don't know if Daley has anything to do with saying the Pledge. I don't even know if I would get in trouble, it's just speculation. WHen a teacher tells you to do something( I was told this) you do it.



No thinking for yourself?



Yeesh...see what I mean when I said being in cook county, Ill was like being in a foreign country?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:55:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By deej86:

I don't know if Daley has anything to do with saying the Pledge. I don't even know if I would get in trouble, it's just speculation. WHen a teacher tells you to do something( I was told this) you do it.



No thinking for yourself?



Yeesh...see what I mean when I said being in cook county, Ill was like being in a foreign country?


That's why I want out of Illi-communist-nois and Crooked County. Daley and his commie SOB's can FOAD for what I care.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:58:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Look, people in this country have the freedom to do as they please when it comes to freedom of speech, and not repeating the pledge every day is a form of speech, no matter why he chooses not to say it, it is his right not to. It does not matter what I believe because this is about what makes our country great: the ability to choose and not be punished for those choices (if not a crime). If you say that we have freedom of speech, but then say that to be a good American you have to go to church every single sunday, someone would say "Great, a little church will be good for the people." But what does that say to other religions who don't do church on Sunday? Same thing. You are free to own guns, say what you want or don't want to say, practice the religion you want, go where you want, earn money in any (legal) profession you desire, and have as many demonic spawns of satan that you wish, marry the woman you wish, live in any part of the country as you wish, etc because we, as American citizens are given the right to choose to do or not do these things. Take away those rights, and we are no better than the insurgents in Iraq. You may not agree with that kid that didn't stand for the pledge, but you have to agree that even though you don't like what he did, that he has the right to his beliefs just the same as you have the right to yours. If you don't believe that should be the case, you sir, should move to Iran, where you can be told what to say, when to stand, what to believe, where to work, where to live, and who you will marry.



Hear Hear!

It's surprising how the Pledge issue can make some people turn into American Taliban....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:07:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:

We do need to teach these kids these things but also to be free, excercise their rights, and to be independent thinkers, not drones.



You see, this is where we all seem to have a real parting of the ways.

The Pledge to the Flag... of the United States of America.
To me, this means I am willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to preserve and protect that Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the great country which, may drift off course from time to time... but for all it's faults, and errors we've made, it's still the best damn place to be. And the one that our ancestors died for.

If you can't put your hand on your heart and testify to that...

I'd say you don't deserve the title of citizen, but then perhaps... maybe you just can't comprehend what the flag means. Some douchebags burn it.

I don't mean this as an insult to you, yet I cannot see your rationalization. Do you not love this country? I'm not asking you to kiss Ceasar's feet, I'm asking you to stand up and pledge that as a citizen, you'll do your part to keep us on the right track as a nation.

That poses a problem though... since alot of people want to take away our freedoms and our ability to defend ourselves, and make us all nothing more than subjects. (I'd bet the pledge is banned from schools in San Fransisco, for example.)

This is what I pledge will NOT happen.

You see it as saying a pledge TO tyranny,
and I see it as saying a pledge AGAINST tyranny.

So who is right? And why?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
He shouldn't have been disciplined for it. It is his right to not stand, not say it, etc.

I don't have a problem with the Pledge per se, but the daily recitation is bullshit, just as are loyalty oaths and other such BS.

Should he have got 32K for it? Hell no.

Blame the jury. Jurors are idiots.



I find that when you see these kinds of cases the explanation for the award is that they lost the case really badly. The jury thought their conduct was bad enough that they needed something of a spanking. That, and lawyer's fees.

Personally, I think that if they were too stupid to see how this was going to come out without going to a jury trial then they probably got what they deserved. The pity is that the award will come out of the pockets of the taxpayers rather than the officials who decided to pursue a losing case.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:07:53 PM EDT
No problem with them not saying it, they just shouldn't "ruin" it for the ones that DO want to say it
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:11:36 PM EDT
AFAIK, the kid sat silently, causing about as much disturbance as the flag itself.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:11:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Look, people in this country have the freedom to do as they please when it comes to freedom of speech, and not repeating the pledge every day is a form of speech, no matter why he chooses not to say it, it is his right not to. It does not matter what I believe because this is about what makes our country great: the ability to choose and not be punished for those choices (if not a crime). If you say that we have freedom of speech, but then say that to be a good American you have to go to church every single sunday, someone would say "Great, a little church will be good for the people." But what does that say to other religions who don't do church on Sunday? Same thing. You are free to own guns, say what you want or don't want to say, practice the religion you want, go where you want, earn money in any (legal) profession you desire, and have as many demonic spawns of satan that you wish, marry the woman you wish, live in any part of the country as you wish, etc because we, as American citizens are given the right to choose to do or not do these things. Take away those rights, and we are no better than the insurgents in Iraq. You may not agree with that kid that didn't stand for the pledge, but you have to agree that even though you don't like what he did, that he has the right to his beliefs just the same as you have the right to yours. If you don't believe that should be the case, you sir, should move to Iran, where you can be told what to say, when to stand, what to believe, where to work, where to live, and who you will marry.



And all that came to pass because a bunch of brave ballsy bastards fought for it, and many died so that you may enjoy those freedoms... under the Flag of the United States of America.

By your logic, there should also be no LAWS, because that goes against my freedom. I should be free to drive 150mph, I should be free to wear no seat belt. I should be free to walk the streets naked. Etc... etc... etc...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:13:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
AFAIK, the kid sat silently, causing about as much disturbance as the flag itself.



If he had STOOD silently I would be on his side
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