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Posted: 2/2/2006 1:13:46 PM EDT
This is a .223 at 25 yards. The bullet made a small dent in the second flange, but didn't do much damage.



This is .338 Win Mag at 25 yards. The bullet almost made it through the second flange.



In a gunfight against someone armed with a rifle, what you think is cover may just be concealment.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:15:29 PM EDT
Note to self....



1) Don't bring knife to gun fight
2) Don't bring pistol to rifle fight
3) Bring bunker to rifle fight
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:16:13 PM EDT
There goes my idea for I-beam armor.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:17:41 PM EDT
Where are you at in colorado tim?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:17:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:19:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:22:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imkrazed:
Where are you at in colorado tim?



Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:22:58 PM EDT
Be careful when shooting at steel targets so close. I have a scar on my cheek from a miscommunitaction between me and another shooter. She asked me which target to shoot. I said whichever one she wanted - refering to the two silouettes I had just posted. She shot at the steel swinger target between and under the two paper targets. The jacket came back and imbedded itself in my cheek. This was at 25 yards.


-K
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:27:06 PM EDT
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:29:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.




Where is that WTF cat picture?????
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:29:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.



Bullets cease to accelerate as soon as they leave the barrel.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:30:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Special-K:
Be careful when shooting at steel targets so close. I have a scar on my cheek from a miscommunitaction between me and another shooter. She asked me which target to shoot. I said whichever one she wanted - refering to the two silouettes I had just posted. She shot at the steel swinger target between and under the two paper targets. The jacket came back and imbedded itself in my cheek. This was at 25 yards.


-K



We shoot at steel at ridiculously close ranges, like 10 yards. I should clarify this is with pistols. We get hit occasionally, but as long as you are wearing glasses it's not a big deal. The bullet has used up so much of its energy that it's really just bouncing back. I've been hit in the face a number of times and nothing has ever left more than the tiniest scratch. I did get thunked about 1" from the jewels one day, and that one hit hard enough to make me hop around and cuss. Oddly, the shooter (I was a spectator) was shooting at 40 yards. It was a pretty freak deal as I think the bullet actually richocheted off the stand, not the target.

Now, rifles at 25yards would make me nervous. When I took these two shots, we had everyone hunkered down behind the truck so I was the only idiot exposed.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:31:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.





I thought that as soon as the bullet leaves the barrel, the propellant gases are no longer acting on the bullet, hence no more acceleration....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:31:36 PM EDT
Looks like someone is competing with O_P!

Ahh Capitalism....
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:32:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By imkrazed:
Where are you at in colorado tim?



Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs



Im in Fort Collins, Now the only question left is what would have a 7.62x39 round done.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:32:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheKill:

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.




Where is that WTF cat picture?????



Here, how about this until someone finds the WTF cat?

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:33:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
Looks like someone is competing with O_P!

Ahh Capitalism....



Anybody that is shooting at steel with a rifle at 25 yards sure ain't competing with me.

I am kind of fond of these old eyes.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:33:47 PM EDT
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.

I don't know what I'm talking about.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:34:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imkrazed:

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By imkrazed:
Where are you at in colorado tim?



Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs



Im in Fort Collins, Now the only question left is what would have a 7.62x39 round done.



Well, come on down if you have one and we'll give it a try. I'm hoping to add a .50BMG hole to it in the next couple of weekends.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:35:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By imkrazed:

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By imkrazed:
Where are you at in colorado tim?



Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs



Im in Fort Collins, Now the only question left is what would have a 7.62x39 round done.



Well, come on down if you have one and we'll give it a try. I'm hoping to add a .50BMG hole to it in the next couple of weekends.



Where do you guys shoot?

Have I been enough of an asshole on ARFCOM that I would get shot or beaten up if I arrived and admitted who I was?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:37:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.

I don't know what I'm talking about.



You may be thinking about the fact that some rifle bullets "settle down" and are more stable at longer ranges as compared to right at the muzzle.

But it isn't because they are going faster. As soon as the propellent gases are no longer pushing against the base of the bullet, it will begin to slow down.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:38:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.

I don't know what I'm talking about.



There's nothing propelling bullets once they leave the barrel. However, they wobble a bit out of the barrel and take a distance (I have NO idea how long) for the centrifugal force to make the bullet stabilize. This might account for a bullet's tendency to not penetrate very well close up, penetrate good for a certain distance, and then not penetrate very well toward the end of its flight.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:39:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TheKill:

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.




Where is that WTF cat picture?????



Here, how about this until someone finds the WTF cat?

img136.imageshack.us/img136/6953/omgcat8hn.jpg



Here you go.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:39:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.

I don't know what I'm talking about.



I'm no physicist but that wouldn't make any sense at all.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:40:15 PM EDT

Where do you guys shoot?

Have I been enough of an asshole on ARFCOM that I would get shot or beaten up if I arrived and admitted who I was?



National forest mostly, but recently on the private property of a friend. Can't find anyplace in the forest where I can take a safe shot at more than 200 yards though so I'm always looking for a new spot.

As to your second question, considering who I shoot with I think you'll get no trouble from us.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:41:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By napalm:
Note to self....



1) Don't bring knife to gun fight
2) Don't bring pistol to rifle fight
3) Bring bunker to rifle fight



4) Also bring superior firepower to rifle fight.
5) Bring many friends with rifles to back you up in rifle fight.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:43:58 PM EDT
I'm so sorry but I can't help myself.


Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:52:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.


Of course they do.

Also, hot water freezes faster than cold water.

Seriously, the only acceleration on a bullet after it leaves the barrel is
1) Drag force (changing the velocity IS acceleration, or decelleration if you will), and
2) Gravitational acceleration, since the bullet's mass is no longer supported by the barrel.

I know they are still going up when they leave the barrel. That a sighting issue. They'd go up more without gravity.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:55:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By Special-K:
Be careful when shooting at steel targets so close. I have a scar on my cheek from a miscommunitaction between me and another shooter. She asked me which target to shoot. I said whichever one she wanted - refering to the two silouettes I had just posted. She shot at the steel swinger target between and under the two paper targets. The jacket came back and imbedded itself in my cheek. This was at 25 yards.


-K



We shoot at steel at ridiculously close ranges, like 10 yards. I should clarify this is with pistols. We get hit occasionally, but as long as you are wearing glasses it's not a big deal. The bullet has used up so much of its energy that it's really just bouncing back. I've been hit in the face a number of times and nothing has ever left more than the tiniest scratch. I did get thunked about 1" from the jewels one day, and that one hit hard enough to make me hop around and cuss. Oddly, the shooter (I was a spectator) was shooting at 40 yards. It was a pretty freak deal as I think the bullet actually richocheted off the stand, not the target.

Now, rifles at 25yards would make me nervous. When I took these two shots, we had everyone hunkered down behind the truck so I was the only idiot exposed.



Maybe its just me, but that pretty much sounds like the dumbass statement of the day......
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:06:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:03:33 PM EDT by Freakzilla]
yeah, that whole "still accelerating" thing is a myth, brought upon due to the fact that some bullets, such as the 5.56x45mm, penetrate more media at greater distances, this is not because it is going faster, but because at close range the bullet fragments, but at longer ranges, it is slower and holds together.

anyways, how would an AK have done?

does the AK penetrate steel better than the AR?


Thanks
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:13:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Where do you guys shoot?

Have I been enough of an asshole on ARFCOM that I would get shot or beaten up if I arrived and admitted who I was?



National forest mostly, but recently on the private property of a friend. Can't find anyplace in the forest where I can take a safe shot at more than 200 yards though so I'm always looking for a new spot.

As to your second question, considering who I shoot with I think you'll get no trouble from us.



We go up to the National Forest a lot too. You ever go up to the informal range at Gunbarrel Creek near Pine? It's on a section of highway between Pine and Deckers.
Not great for range though, just somewhere we go sometimes.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:28:20 PM EDT
Um, what size(dimensions) is that I-beam? Just curious. You could put, like, a beer can in the pic next time for comparison.


ByteTheBullet (-:
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:47:06 PM EDT
I've used a 500 count ream of paper as a backstop. For a function check of a few rounds of 5.56 FMJ at 10yd in the back yard it works well. The rounds disintegrate.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:00:38 PM EDT
There is a round that still accelerates after leaving the barrel.

A .30-06 Accelerator cartridge has a .22 caliber projectile in a plastic sabot. When it exits the barrel, the sabot falls away, reducing mass. The reduction in mass results in slight acceleration of the bullet.

This is what I have been told happens, I'm not a physicist nor do I play one on TV.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:03:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:
There is a round that still accelerates after leaving the barrel.

A .30-06 Accelerator cartridge has a .22 caliber projectile in a plastic sabot. When it exits the barrel, the sabot falls away, reducing mass. The reduction in mass results in slight acceleration of the bullet.

This is what I have been told happens, I'm not a physicist nor do I play one on TV.




And gyrojet rounds too, of course.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:13:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Maybe I'm having a brain fart but I swear I remember reading that most bullets still accelerate after leaving the barrel. I mean not like out to 300m, but up to 25 or 50 m at most. This was in reguards to the fact it is better to shoot something thats a few feet away than point blank for max penitration.

I don't know what I'm talking about.



Well you're finally right about something
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:23:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
Shouldn't you shoot from a bit further out for a more realistic result?
IIRC bullets are still accelerating after they leave the barrel
Do not most rounds achieve max velocity (thus penitrative ability) beyond 25 yards. A average of various distance would also be nice to see for a best case and worst case scenario for each round.



As others mentioned, max bullet velocity is at the muzzle. Unless the barrel is too long, then the bullet can start loosing velocity there.

Sometimes, particularly in softer stuff, bullets can penetrate more at greater distances. For example, in Hatcher's Notebook, he shows that .30-06 penetrates deeper in oak at 200 yards than 50 yards. This is because the bullet hasn't settled down as much at the closer range, or because the high velocity impact causes it to rapidly transfer energy, hence momentum, on impact.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:31:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:
There is a round that still accelerates after leaving the barrel.

A .30-06 Accelerator cartridge has a .22 caliber projectile in a plastic sabot. When it exits the barrel, the sabot falls away, reducing mass. The reduction in mass results in slight acceleration of the bullet.

This is what I have been told happens, I'm not a physicist nor do I play one on TV.




What is it about guns that attracts such stupid hearsay?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:32:14 PM EDT
Any chance you could do a test with 7.62x39 vs M193 vs M855?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:36:03 PM EDT
What .223 load was used?

Have you tried it with M193 or M855?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:37:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By Special-K:
Be careful when shooting at steel targets so close. I have a scar on my cheek from a miscommunitaction between me and another shooter. She asked me which target to shoot. I said whichever one she wanted - refering to the two silouettes I had just posted. She shot at the steel swinger target between and under the two paper targets. The jacket came back and imbedded itself in my cheek. This was at 25 yards.


-K



We shoot at steel at ridiculously close ranges, like 10 yards. I should clarify this is with pistols. We get hit occasionally, but as long as you are wearing glasses it's not a big deal. The bullet has used up so much of its energy that it's really just bouncing back. I've been hit in the face a number of times and nothing has ever left more than the tiniest scratch. I did get thunked about 1" from the jewels one day, and that one hit hard enough to make me hop around and cuss. Oddly, the shooter (I was a spectator) was shooting at 40 yards. It was a pretty freak deal as I think the bullet actually richocheted off the stand, not the target.

Now, rifles at 25yards would make me nervous. When I took these two shots, we had everyone hunkered down behind the truck so I was the only idiot exposed.



Maybe its just me, but that pretty much sounds like the dumbass statement of the day......



It's not worded the best, however we shoot steel with pistols up pretty close as well. I've been hit by a few jackets on the hands. The only thing ever really exposed. It'll scratch you but thats about it.
We have pretty muched switched over to frangible ammo now though so even that doesn't happen anymore.

Up close ricochets are more of a problem when you shoot the big slow rounds (45ACP)
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:39:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:42:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:42:38 PM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:
There is a round that still accelerates after leaving the barrel.

A .30-06 Accelerator cartridge has a .22 caliber projectile in a plastic sabot. When it exits the barrel, the sabot falls away, reducing mass. The reduction in mass results in slight acceleration of the bullet.

This is what I have been told happens, I'm not a physicist nor do I play one on TV.




Sabot jackets also reduce the friction between the projectile and the bore which allows for higher velocity.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:43:03 PM EDT
I'd put money that if you shot a plate of steel worth the thickness of the two I Beams flanges (for example if the flange is .125", a .250" piece) it would penetrate.


How thick is the steel where the bullets penetrated? Im actually impressed that it stopped the bullets. I've always wondered how much better two thin sheets of steel would stop a bullet than one thicker piece. I guess Im operating under the theory that one piece will deform the bullet to the point it cannot penetrate the second piece. I do realize its defeated if you put another bullet down the the first hole...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:44:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:53:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:59:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TimMK:

Originally Posted By imkrazed:
Where are you at in colorado tim?



Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs



My Dad hung out in Woodland Park in the '20's. Talked about the board sidwalks and muddy main drag.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:00:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By BuckeyeRifleman:
Looks like someone is competing with O_P!

Ahh Capitalism....



Anybody that is shooting at steel with a rifle at 25 yards sure ain't competing with me.

I am kind of fond of these old eyes.



jk O_P, your still the best!
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:11:23 PM EDT
Woodland Park, a mountain town just west of Colorado Springs

Nice area
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:18:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:
There is a round that still accelerates after leaving the barrel.

A .30-06 Accelerator cartridge has a .22 caliber projectile in a plastic sabot. When it exits the barrel, the sabot falls away, reducing mass. The reduction in mass results in slight acceleration of the bullet.

This is what I have been told happens, I'm not a physicist nor do I play one on TV.




I think what you are saying(or trying to say) is that the bullet goes faster after dumping the sabot,than it would have gone with the sabot!!

No acceleration there!

Bob
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 4:35:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IchWarrior: I've always wondered how much better two thin sheets of steel would stop a bullet than one thicker piece. I guess Im operating under the theory that one piece will deform the bullet to the point it cannot penetrate the second piece.
That's what actually happens.
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