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Posted: 2/2/2006 5:45:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 3:39:16 AM EDT by Cavu]
OK, first things first. This IS NOT A COP/BATFE agent BASHING THREAD!! If it turns into one, I will ask for this thread to be locked.

Ok, a brief history first.

I am pretty much a creature of habit. Almost every morning now for the last 3 years, I stop in my local gunshop after dropping the girls at school for a cup of coffee. I have spent so much time there, they are like my family. The owners bought school desks for my kids and put them right in the middle of their store so the girls have a place to sit when we all stop in. They buy my girls birthday and Christmas presents and we do the same for them.

So now for this morning. I was really looking forward to my cup of coffee today, so I parked in my usual spot and walked to the front door. Just as I was about to open the door, a car pulls in and blows the horn (about 2 feet from me). I turn to see who it was and out from the car come 4 BATFE agents in body armor saying the store is closed today we have a search warrant. I said OK, and then one replies, "we don't want you to get hurt." Seconds later another car pulls up and 4 more agents get out.

I have practically lived in that store for 3 years. I have spent more time behind the counter there than in front of it now. I help out however and whenever I can. The owner is a WWII vet and one of the greatest guys you would ever want to know. I can't for the life of me think of anything that I have seen in my time there that would be illegal. They do their best to follow the book as far as I know.

So what would prompt such a search? Could someone (an unhappy customer) make false accusations that would lead to this or would the BATFE do some undercover work first to see if it is true before they got a search warrant? I am concerned for my friends.

I will keep you posted.

Cavu
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:46:47 AM EDT
You're guilty.

Send your guns to me.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:47:41 AM EDT
Damn, that sucks. Where in KY are you?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:16 AM EDT
Tagged to hear the reason for the warrant.

Does this gun store specialize in military style assault weapons?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:17 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 3:49:12 AM EDT by Cavu]
.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:49:35 AM EDT
So you never got your coffee?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:52:09 AM EDT
"We don't want you to get hurt."

My reply would have been "Is that meant as a threat???"
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:53:02 AM EDT
tag for curiousity
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:54:11 AM EDT
a rat ta tat tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:54:27 AM EDT
Dammit....the bitch with this is it could be anything........or very likely NOTHING. It's is really hard to tell, I work with explosives on a daily basis and my firm has very good relations with the ATFE and the compliance folks are really nice to us. Then again I have seen the "Enforcement" guys be real dicks to people with zero cause......and every now and then they are dicks for a reason.

I hope for the best with your friend's shop and I, for one, would love to be kept informed of how this turns out.

Hopefully someone here can get a line on what is going on for you.

Best of luck with your friend.....and don't talk to Johnny law without an attourney present for the sake of both you and your friend. You may get hit up for an interview since your a good friend of his, and that isn't a problem but because they are the Feds and they make money on prosecutions, not justice, you will need to keep a clear head and make sure that they aren't trying to make you say things that they can turn around on your friend later.


Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:55:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 5:55:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
Tagged to hear the reason for the warrant.

Does this gun store specialize in military style assault weapons?



Come on, now.

It's high time we quit using their demonizing terms.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:00:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:02:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 8:46:35 AM EDT by Cavu]

Originally Posted By topknot:
"We don't want you to get hurt."

My reply would have been "Is that meant as a threat???"



The first thing that popped into my head was " The only ones that would hurt me would be you." But thankfully, I didn't say it. They were very polite and professional towards me.



Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Does this gun store specialize in military style assault weapons?



mostly hunting rifles, shotguns, and a bunch of old mausers, mosin-nagant, and other c&r type stuff.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:02:32 AM EDT
Interesting enough to tag.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:02:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:10:38 AM EDT by FLAL1A]
The correct response would have been "OK, thanks. I'll make note of the fact that you're planning on hurting people today. That could be useful to somebody."

ETA: BATFE is in an odd situation. They really are tax and insurance (arson) police, but they have to make a show to keep their budgets up. How could they keep milking the public tit if they couldn't go to congressional hearings and show videos of searches that look like they were shot in fallujah? If they didn't pull that crap - and tag along on every friggin' warrant in creation because there might be a .25 auto in the house, requiring their "expertise,"- they might very well get the budget they need, and be ordered to start dressing like detectives instead of like NASCAR-circuit pirates. Remember, WACO was called "Operation Showtime," and was deliberately planned as a fireworks display to counter the hideous record they had compiled in Senate investigations of their usefulness and institutional misconduct. Get on Google and find the Senate Judiciary Report on ATF. I think it came out in '82 or '86, and the dissolution of the agency recommended as one solution in that report was on the table at the time of WACO, as I recall.

What you saw was +90% likely the execution of a warrant for a records inspection in addition to the mandatory annual inspection. IIRC, if the FFL doesn't agree to additional inspections, they have to get a warrant. It looks much "better" as an armed raid than as a Tactical Accounting Op.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:11 AM EDT
Maybe they heard the owner was hiding a dog in the back room.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:14 AM EDT
Tagging for the outcome
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:04:35 AM EDT
I have never heard of an ATF that turned out well for the business owner...the ATF always finds something. Your friend will either be arrested or lose some of his inventory and it won't be treated properly.

As for the cause of the raid most likely someone he dealt with, either customer or supplier, was busted for something and ratted him out as having something illegal in order to get the ATF to go easy on him. I've had two acquaintances get raided by the ATF and put in jail. Both got into trouble because of people they had connections to. One was over importing items even though the ATF had approved teh paperwork. They took everything in his inventory even the non-firearm items not related to the questionable paperwork. The other guy was a good friend of mine. He had a supplier get busted for making illegal fireworks. That supplier told the ATF my friend also had illegal explosives, which he didn't. My friend had a criminal record and sold no firearms at all. In fact the only explosive type items he had were the 37mm bird bombs which weren't regulated at the time. Well it was no big suprise when the ATF did not find any type explosives or any other illegal item when they searched his truck, trailer, storage unit. They then searched his house and still didn't find anything except for an SKS in the bedroom closet. So not to have a raid without an arrest they claimed the SKS was his and since he had a record he couldn't be in possession of it and busted him for it. The SKS was his wifes and was only in the house for protection. The ATF didn't care.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:06:08 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:06:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:
Tagged to hear the reason for the warrant.

Does this gun store specialize in military style assault weapons?



What are those?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:07:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:08:56 AM EDT
wow. tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:10:06 AM EDT
You shop for coffee at a gun store?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:12:28 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:24 AM EDT
tag, could be anything, could be nothing.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:13:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:14:22 AM EDT by bullyforyou]

and another american has his life destroyed by government enforcement over what was probably [at best] some BS technicallity.

well, here's hoping it all works out in the end.


Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:15:42 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:21:27 AM EDT
They probably just got the wrong address for one of the 145,765 meth labs thats down there, silly KFC town
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:21:52 AM EDT

Could someone (an unhappy customer) make false accusations that would lead to this or would the BATFE do some undercover work first to see if it is true before they got a search warrant?

yes and no. was it john lawmaster who had his estranged wife make a baseless accusation that led to the atf raiding his house, breaking down the door, tearing open his safe, and leaving empty-handed with all his legal guns piled up in the middle of his dining room? as long as they can find a friendly gun hating judge(and they can!) to sign a warrant the batfe can do anything it wants. they are renowned for their baseless raids and searches.

they wouldn't waste their time with uc work on your friend's store unless he was deeply involved in some major weps shit.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:25:15 AM EDT
Maybe they just hate banjo music.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:29:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By topknot:
"We don't want you to get hurt."

My reply would have been "Is that meant as a threat???"



+1. I was thinking the same thing. Not a very professional thing to say.

I wonder what the hell was going on.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:34:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BeetleBailey:
wow. tag

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:35:09 AM EDT
Sure sounds like a case of guilty until proven innocent, to me.

It's sad that it is probably nothing but word will get around. That store will lose business simply because the ATF has to roll up like their assaulting Mt. Carmel, though without flamethrowers this time. The store owner will be guilty of a crime simply by the pure spectacle of the event. And it will help them further diminish the reputation of gun owners and dealers without any real substance.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:36:52 AM EDT
"I stop in my local gunshop after dropping the girls at school for a cup of coffee." You definitely belong in this site, (i'm not saying it in a bad way, on the contrary, i wish i hade that kinda relationship with my local GS.)



Keep us posted as to what happened.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:38:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:39:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
could be anything, could be nothing.

But given prior performance by the BATFE, chances are good that the store owner's life will be ruined whether any misdeeds were done or not.

Remember: "We're from the government and we're here to help you."
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:41:52 AM EDT
Uh oh. Tag.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:43:55 AM EDT
I really don't understand ATF. How in the hell can their agency be so divided, personality-wise?

You get the field agents who come in for inspections and audits, and every one of them i've ever met is, while businesslike and professional, usually and genuine human being who's just there to count beans and do a job. They've never seemed 'out to get' anyone, just doing a good job, and making note of the problems they found. If it lead to trouble, you had no one to blame but yourself.

Then you have the straight up enforcement agents. And from every story i've heard, ATF must just outright own the patent on the JBT design for these guys.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:43:56 AM EDT
ATF sometimes visit my local gunstore..tracking down weapons.

What store in Corbin is this??? I am in central KY and get around the state.

Tag for outcome as well.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:49:31 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:57:59 AM EDT
Given their prices on everything else, a cup of coffee at my local gunshop would probably cost $12.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:08:09 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:12:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SUPERSPORT:
You shop for coffee at a gun store?



Better than shopping for guns at a coffee shop...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:15:43 AM EDT
Tag to see what happens
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:17:46 AM EDT
There is a multi-state effort ongoing regarding illegal sales. From what I've gotten, it is mainly aimed at sales at flea markets. I just saw Alice Martin, Fed DA in B'ham on TV. Saw a shot of someone holding a Thompson up- no details there. I haven't heard anything about retail sites being involved, but Ky is one of the states I recall- Al and Ga as well.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:20:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By SUPERSPORT:
You shop for coffee at a gun store?



Better than shopping for guns at a coffee shop...



LOL!
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:22:41 AM EDT
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