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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:38:26 PM EDT
I was reading The_Beer_Slayers thread about the exploding Kel-Tec and from what I read, it looked like a brass case seperation was to blame. Since brass is a softer metal, would that mean that steel would make a stronger, and in turn, safer to fire case? This is just a idea that I had, so if I'm wrong, please explain why so that I can better understand it.

Kris


Oh yeah almost forgot.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:48:14 PM EDT
It is underpowered as well... That could be good...
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:49:02 PM EDT
This should be good. Where is my popcorn.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:49:35 PM EDT
Than what?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:57:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Than what?



Than brass cased ammo.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:03:46 PM EDT
Safer for anyone you might be shooting at, since Wolf is so shitty you can't even get anything like a group at only 100 yards. I'll never shoot it through my ARs unless it was the last ammo on the planet.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:09:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Safer for anyone you might be shooting at, since Wolf is so shitty you can't even get anything like a group at only 100 yards. I'll never shoot it through my ARs unless it was the last ammo on the planet.



Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:12:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By greener556:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Safer for anyone you might be shooting at, since Wolf is so shitty you can't even get anything like a group at only 100 yards. I'll never shoot it through my ARs unless it was the last ammo on the planet.









SBG
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:13:43 PM EDT


That didn't take long .
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:15:24 PM EDT
at 65,000 PSI +/- the cases could be made of about anything
the results would be the same
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:22:31 PM EDT
Why won't every one leave my Wolf alone? Wolf is winning the was in Iraq!

­

<­img src=/images/smilies/smiley_scuba.gif border=0 align=middle>
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:24:12 PM EDT
Yeah, that piss-ant hotwheels car/ pot metal Wolf case will hold the pressure of a .223 round.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:51:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Safer for anyone you might be shooting at, since Wolf is so shitty you can't even get anything like a group at only 100 yards. I'll never shoot it through my ARs unless it was the last ammo on the planet.



good... more for me
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:53:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:56:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Derek45:
Yeah, that piss-ant hotwheels car/ pot metal Wolf case will hold the pressure of a .223 round.




Because brass is so much harder. Why not make brass hammers out of pot metal instead if it's so soft?

I've fire 1000's of round of Wolf in both .223 and 7.62x39 and never had a failure yet.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScaryBlackGuns:

Originally Posted By greener556:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Safer for anyone you might be shooting at, since Wolf is so shitty you can't even get anything like a group at only 100 yards. I'll never shoot it through my ARs unless it was the last ammo on the planet.









SBG



+.9bar


How many times must we do this?

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:02:59 PM EDT
I have shot aluminum, steel and brass and the only case seperation I have ever had was green & gold Remington commercial ammo in a brass case.

Box of truth for metal toughness?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:05:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 7:07:25 PM EDT by the_great_snag]
I think all you metallurgists are missing something. Brass is especially suited to ammunition use because it IS softer and can expand and then contract quickly after firing, allowing it to alternately completely fill (read: seal) the chamber, and then extract easily.

A case that stretches uniformly and somewhat easily is less likely to split than a case that is harder or more brittle. Indeed brass that has been reloaded several times becomes less safe because it gets work-hardened by being continually fire-formed and then resized. This causes it to be brittle and thus more prone to splitting. This is the reason neck sized rifle cases last much longer than full-length sized cases.

Has anyone seen the new 5.56 cartridges that are all plastic except the base? They work because other than the breechface there is nowhere for gases to go but out the muzzle. The case expanding makes no difference.

ETA: Ooops... IMHO this makes brass cases superior to steel, especially if you want to reload them! Steel is a throwaway for more reasons than one, but it should be fine for one firing.

I would also add that most people's aversion to Wolf has less to do with the case material and more to do with other issues directly related to consistency and quality of ALL of the components.

It works fine for me though...
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:09:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:
I have shot aluminum, steel and brass and the only case seperation I have ever had was green & gold Remington commercial ammo in a brass case.

Box of truth for metal toughness?



I've noticed some Remington cases seem to run to the very hard side. Winchester brass is in my experience much more pliable and easy to work with in most calibers.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:13:47 PM EDT
Final two cents... before I get flamed for this... Neck sizing is also easier on brass because you have a case body perfectly formed to the chamber dimensions. Thus if your chamber is slightly long in its headspace you won't get case head separations like you might if you keep full length sizing cases from a gun with a long chamber. I had a COLT AR that had this problem. After several firings the cases all developed a bright band just about the case head. This is because when this region stretches and gets thinner it stays thin. Resizing doesn't make it thick again.

It is also cumulative and gets worse each time a case is fired. Combine this with work-hardening and you get the idea...

OK, my reloading soapbox is put away for the night.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:17:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:19:53 PM EDT
yeah Wolfs so underpowered...want to get shot by ANY round of Wolf ammo, then tell me its underpowered?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:20:53 PM EDT

Forget the "old Wolf"...now we have:



Warning: Brass cased Wolf is marked "For Uber-Tactical MallNinja Use Only"

Brass casings on Wolf components is kinda like putting a set of Keystone mags on the Dodge Dart.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:27:02 PM EDT
NATEC ammo is de best
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:44:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:54:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:00:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HELOBRAVO:
Why won't every one leave my Wolf alone? Wolf is winning the was in Iraq!

­

<­img src=/images/smilies/smiley_scuba.gif border=0 align=middle>



By ka-booming the badguy's AKs?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:41:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By the_great_snag:
I think all you metallurgists are missing something. Brass is especially suited to ammunition use because it IS softer and can expand and then contract quickly after firing, allowing it to alternately completely fill (read: seal) the chamber, and then extract easily.

A case that stretches uniformly and somewhat easily is less likely to split than a case that is harder or more brittle. Indeed brass that has been reloaded several times becomes less safe because it gets work-hardened by being continually fire-formed and then resized. This causes it to be brittle and thus more prone to splitting. This is the reason neck sized rifle cases last much longer than full-length sized cases.

Has anyone seen the new 5.56 cartridges that are all plastic except the base? They work because other than the breechface there is nowhere for gases to go but out the muzzle. The case expanding makes no difference.

ETA: Ooops... IMHO this makes brass cases superior to steel, especially if you want to reload them! Steel is a throwaway for more reasons than one, but it should be fine for one firing.

I would also add that most people's aversion to Wolf has less to do with the case material and more to do with other issues directly related to consistency and quality of ALL of the components.

It works fine for me though...



See, this was the type of DISCUSSION that I wanted. Not a "Wolf ammo sucks" thread, but an actually discussion about which case would be stronger. Thank you the_great_snag.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:30:22 PM EDT
So, has anyone actually had a steel case split on them?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:40:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 2:46:06 PM EDT by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:
So, has anyone actually had a steel case split on them?



I consider your original question to be a good one.

the_great_snag made some good comments.

I have shot a lot of Wolf and never had a split case. As noted in a previous thread, Troy noted that since the steel cases used by Wolf do not expand as well as brass, they do not seal the chamber as well and you will get some "blow-by" of the powder residue.

This can cause deposits in the chamber area, and if you follow with a brass round, it can cause the brass case to stick in the chamber.

This is what can sometimes cause stuck cases when using Wolf, not the "laquer" or "poly" coating.

On a related note, I once had about a dozen steel .45 ACP cases left over from WWII. I reloaded them by sizing them through my carbide die and they held up to many, many resizings. They worked just fine and as well as their brass cousins.

Edited to add the original thread from the Archive:

archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=246820
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:45:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By shop_rat45:
So, has anyone actually had a steel case split on them?



I consider your original question to be a good one.

the_great_snag made some good comments.

I have shot a lot of Wolf and never had a split case. As noted in a previous thread, Troy noted that since the steel cases used by Wolf do not expand as well as brass, they do not seal the chamber as well and you will get some "blow-by" of the powder residue.

This can cause deposits in the chamber area, and if you follow with a brass round, it can cause the brass case to stick in the chamber.

This is what can sometimes cause stuck cases when using Wolf, not the "laquer" or "poly" coating.




Now that is kinda interesting. I had that exact thing happen to me. I thought it was the crappy Olympic Ammo that I was using, but it sounds like it was the carbon residue.

Another thing about Wolf ammo that I just recently found out is that the copper jacket isn't all copper. It is copper plated steel. If a magnet is help up to it, you can feel it pull. This is why some ranges won't allow Wolf ammo.

Kris
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 3:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:01:03 PM EDT by viper5194]
I never really had any accuracy problems with Wolf, but I did indeed stop useing it when i experianced a blown primer on my 318th round out of a case... Fortunetly the powder in the case didnt ignite. if it had id more than likely have had a KB and would have been very pissed. I however never experiance a case cracking or speration.
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