Quoted: Quoted: Seems to me like it might have the effect of instantly removing a ten pound roast from anyone who was attacking you.  That might slow them down, just from all the blood and hamburger in their face. Two shots removes twenty pounds, and so forth. By the time you emptied the mag you could turn him in for recycling at Burger King. I'll stick to more conventional ballistic theory.  Thanks though.

Have you seen the video?

I perfer the .45 to the 10. The glock extensions on the magazines work great. Get what you want, but do invest in the extensions. They work well on my G36

heres an eclipse.................and at a pretty damned good buy-it-now price i might add:

gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=43127082

Man, I love 10mm. I wish I had a G29 with a Robar front and rear strap grip reduction, texturing, added beavertail, and recontoured trigger guard.

And also a 9x25 dillon barrel.





Drool

10mm=auto pistol magnum

10mm= for animals, .45acp for people

my G29 is a nice compact shooter, but its kinda stout on the recoil--more so w/ the lighter, faster CorBon loads

i would get the G20

Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo

Ever tried it yourself?

Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo

Exactly!

I was waiting for the turn to hydrostatic shock and heat sensing bullets to start in earnest before I dropped you a line.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo Ever tried it yourself?

Shooting a roast?  No.  Sorry.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo Ever tried it yourself? Shooting a roast?  No.  Sorry.

+1

i would rather EAT em

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo Exactly! I was waiting for the turn to hydrostatic shock and heat sensing bullets to start in earnest before I dropped you a line.

Who, besides you, mentioned that?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo Ever tried it yourself? Shooting a roast?  No.  Sorry.

So the story is that you have never seen the video nor tried the ammo yourself. Is that about the size of it?

Tag for awesome RBCDHSLDOMGWTF flame fest.

Quoted: So the story is that you have never seen the video nor tried the ammo yourself. Is that about the size of it?

...you got me.

When I say things like, "I will stick to conventional ballistics theory."  This should serve as "CLUE #1" that I probably haven't tried the LeMas ammo.

Further, when I mention, "There is no magic bullet."  This should probably serve as "CLUE #2" that I probably have seen the video, and heard of the ammo, and I don't buy the hyped up BS.

I'll let the ballistics EXPERTS here talk in more depth.  I am only a novice in such matters and respect THEIR findings and opinions.

Quoted: Quoted: So the story is that you have never seen the video nor tried the ammo yourself. Is that about the size of it? ...you got me. When I say things like, "I will stick to conventional ballistics theory."  This should serve as "CLUE #1" that I probably haven't tried the LeMas ammo. Further, when I mention, "There is no magic bullet."  This should probably serve as "CLUE #2" that I probably have seen the video, and heard of the ammo, and I don't buy the hyped up BS. I'll let the ballistics EXPERTS here talk in more depth.  I am only a novice in such matters and respect THEIR findings and opinions.

Tell you what. If someone can find a link to the video, watch it and get back to me. The experts can do all the ballistics calculations they want, and the critics can talk all they want about how temperature-sensing bullets, etc.  The plain fact is that there is a huge and clearly visible difference in the results.

I am not a ballistics expert myself, but I can tell the difference between ten pounds of meat with a hole in it and ten pounds of splattered hamburger. If someone wants to explain it in technical terms, that is up to them, and I invite them to try. But the difference in results is just huge.


And yeah, I could tell by your answers that you hadn't seen the video. You will find it interesting, I assure you.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So the story is that you have never seen the video nor tried the ammo yourself. Is that about the size of it? ...you got me. When I say things like, "I will stick to conventional ballistics theory."  This should serve as "CLUE #1" that I probably haven't tried the LeMas ammo. Further, when I mention, "There is no magic bullet."  This should probably serve as "CLUE #2" that I probably have seen the video, and heard of the ammo, and I don't buy the hyped up BS. I'll let the ballistics EXPERTS here talk in more depth.  I am only a novice in such matters and respect THEIR findings and opinions. Tell you what. If someone can find a link to the video, watch it and get back to me. The experts can do all the ballistics calculations they want, and the critics can talk all they want about how temperature-sensing bullets, etc.  The plain fact is that there is a huge and clearly visible difference in the results. I am not a ballistics expert myself, but I can tell the difference between ten pounds of meat with a hole in it and ten pounds of splattered hamburger. If someone wants to explain it in technical terms, that is up to them, and I invite them to try. But the difference in results is just huge. And yeah, I could tell by your answers that you hadn't seen the video. You will find it interesting, I assure you.

The experts have been studying RCBD ammo for years. Their conclusions are it is crap. It does nothing that any other light-for-caliber bullet travelling at high velocity does. It makes an impressive looking (to those who do not understand wound ballistics) but VERY shallow wound. Such rounds fail to penetrate to vital organs.

Quoted: The experts have been studying RCBD ammo for years. Their conclusions are it is crap. It does nothing that any other light-for-caliber bullet travelling at high velocity does. It makes an impressive looking (to those who do not understand wound ballistics) but VERY shallow wound. Such rounds fail to penetrate to vital organs.

That wouldn't be an accurate description of any of the things I have seen.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Get some RBCD ammo Ever tried it yourself? Actually, yes. Have YOU?

Yep. I wasn't measuring foot-pounds at the time but the visible results were quite a bit more spectacular than regular ammo.

Quoted: Quoted: The experts have been studying RCBD ammo for years. Their conclusions are it is crap. It does nothing that any other light-for-caliber bullet travelling at high velocity does. It makes an impressive looking (to those who do not understand wound ballistics) but VERY shallow wound. Such rounds fail to penetrate to vital organs. That wouldn't be an accurate description of any of the things I have seen.

My .22 firing hollow points can blow up half-gallon jugs full of water. How comes they don't have the same effect on people? Same thing with this video that impresses you so much. The size of the target could not contain the temporary stretch cavity. It looks impressive on small pot roast. It is nothing but marketing hype. People are bigger than pot roasts.

Please, go to Tactical Forums and READ up in the Terminal Effects Forum.

Quoted: Tell you what. If someone can find a link to the video, watch it and get back to me.  .... and yeah, I could tell by your answers that you hadn't seen the video. You will find it interesting, I assure you.

Tell you what.  Read my post again.  I've seen the video.  I'm unimpressed.

I've also seen the wound channels on animals, not humans, from this ammo.  I'm unimpressed.

Any hunter can assure you that the wound channels are consistent a lightweight bullet going fast and hitting flesh and tissue.  Nothing noteworthy, I assure you.

Lastly, penetration and expansion are key criteria in wound ballistics.  The ballistics experts can confirm that the penetration is not league leading, by any stretch.

I seem to recall it was actually sub-par.

Here is a thread you might have missed on the ammo:

RBCD Ammo Thread

Quoted: Yep. I wasn't measuring foot-pounds at the time but the visible results were quite a bit more spectacular than regular ammo.

Let me guess, you shot a roast?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The experts have been studying RCBD ammo for years. Their conclusions are it is crap. It does nothing that any other light-for-caliber bullet travelling at high velocity does. It makes an impressive looking (to those who do not understand wound ballistics) but VERY shallow wound. Such rounds fail to penetrate to vital organs. That wouldn't be an accurate description of any of the things I have seen. My .22 firing hollow points can blow up half-gallon jugs full of water. How comes they don't have the same effect on people? Same thing with this video that impresses you so much. The size of the target could not contain the temporary stretch cavity. It looks impressive on small pot roast. It is nothing but marketing hype. People are bigger than pot roasts. Please, go to Tactical Forums and READ up in the Terminal Effects Forum.

Well, in some of the cases I have seen it was a test of one bullet on a pot roast versus another bullet on a pot roast. Hugely different results. If you fire two different .22s into jugs and one produces far more spectacular results than the other then you don't need to shoot anyone to know there is a difference.

Temporary stretch cavity?  Oh, please. It sounds to me like you didn't see the video. In any event, even if you were correct, then obviously it produced a massively bigger stretch cavity. Big enough that an average person might effectively be cut in half before the "temporary" part got resolved.

I have read a lot about terminal effects on this topic. The visible results don't match well with any explanation I have seen and lots of times the explainers seem to have ignored the obvious (like the "temporary stretch cavity" explanation).

Mind you, I am not saying that RBCD is the be-all and end-all of ammunition. I am not even saying that RBCD is the best choice for anything other than exploding ten pound roasts. But, at the same time, I think I can tell when the explanations offered don't quite explain it.

Quoted: Interesting. All your previous posts were relating to a video, not personal experience. Then, when I call your bluff, you magically have experience. Sorry, but I don't believe you.

I was shooting jugs, cans, and similar stuff. I didn't tape it or do any specific tests so it is not something I could share like the various videos that have been on the net from time to time.

You can believe it or stick it where the moon don't shine. Your choice.

Quoted: My .22 firing hollow points can blow up half-gallon jugs full of water.

Sweet!!!

So now to recap:

If attacked by pot roast, shoot it with LeMas.

If attacked by water jugs, shoot with HP 22lr.

Thanks!!!

Quoted: Quoted: Yep. I wasn't measuring foot-pounds at the time but the visible results were quite a bit more spectacular than regular ammo. Let me guess, you shot a roast?

No, just rocks, jugs, cans with water in them, and other similar things.

Quoted: You can believe it or stick it where the moon don't shine. Your choice.

Eloquent rebuttal.

Quoted: Quoted: <SNIP> I have read a lot about terminal effects on this topic. The visible results don't match well with any explanation I have seen and lots of times the explainers seem to have ignored the obvious (like the "temporary stretch cavity" explanation). Mind you, I am not saying that RBCD is the be-all and end-all of ammunition. I am not even saying that RBCD is the best choice for anything other than exploding ten pound roasts. But, at the same time, I think I can tell when the explanations offered don't quite explain it.

Since you have read so extensively on the topic of terminal effects, I am sure you are aware that dead flesh (i.e. pot roasts) are horrible tissue simulants. They are far less elastic than living tissue, or the best tissue simulant: Ordinance gelatin. As such, they greatly exagerate the effects of the temporary stretch cavity. Other common simulants used to over-emphasize the temporary stretch cavity are clay and wet newsprint. Anytime you see ammo tested in those media, ignore the results.

Quoted: Since you have read so extensively on the topic of terminal effects, I am sure you are aware that dead flesh (i.e. pot roasts) are horrible tissue simulants. They are far less elastic than living tissue, or the best tissue simulant: Ordinance gelatin. As such, they greatly exagerate the effects of the temporary stretch cavity. Other common simulants used to over-emphasize the temporary stretch cavity are clay and wet newsprint. Anytime you see ammo tested in those media, ignore the results.

Ouch.  You even hurt MY feelings, and it wasn't even directed at me.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Interesting. All your previous posts were relating to a video, not personal experience. Then, when I call your bluff, you magically have experience. Sorry, but I don't believe you. I was shooting jugs, cans, and similar stuff. I didn't tape it or do any specific tests so it is not something I could share like the various videos that have been on the net from time to time. You can believe it or stick it where the moon don't shine. Your choice. You get the "uber-pot roast killingest $3/round ammo" and you shoot jugs and cans with it?

I got it free. Since you have not shown yet that you are smarter than the average bear, I will not tell you how I got it free.

Wow, if that impressed you, have you ever shot a milk jug with a 50gr TAP?  It makes it explode!  Obviously, it must be the most lethal projectile ever! Thanks for the laugh man, you made my day.

Who, besides you, ever said anything that dumb? A simple comparison of one milk jug against another. Get it?  All of my combat defensive shooting is done against milk jugs and cans. We have a real problem with them in this area.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <SNIP> I have read a lot about terminal effects on this topic. The visible results don't match well with any explanation I have seen and lots of times the explainers seem to have ignored the obvious (like the "temporary stretch cavity" explanation). Mind you, I am not saying that RBCD is the be-all and end-all of ammunition. I am not even saying that RBCD is the best choice for anything other than exploding ten pound roasts. But, at the same time, I think I can tell when the explanations offered don't quite explain it. Since you have read so extensively on the topic of terminal effects, I am sure you are aware that dead flesh (i.e. pot roasts) are horrible tissue simulants. They are far less elastic than living tissue, or the best tissue simulant: Ordinance gelatin. As such, they greatly exagerate the effects of the temporary stretch cavity. Other common simulants used to over-emphasize the temporary stretch cavity are clay and wet newsprint. Anytime you see ammo tested in those media, ignore the results.

Well, let's assume that your explanation is entirely correct. The videos weren't live meat against dead meat. They were two different bullets with different pieces of dead meat. So your explanation is irrelevant, at best. Explain why there is such a huge difference in similar pieces of meat, living or dead.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <SNIP> I have read a lot about terminal effects on this topic. The visible results don't match well with any explanation I have seen and lots of times the explainers seem to have ignored the obvious (like the "temporary stretch cavity" explanation). Mind you, I am not saying that RBCD is the be-all and end-all of ammunition. I am not even saying that RBCD is the best choice for anything other than exploding ten pound roasts. But, at the same time, I think I can tell when the explanations offered don't quite explain it. Since you have read so extensively on the topic of terminal effects, I am sure you are aware that dead flesh (i.e. pot roasts) are horrible tissue simulants. They are far less elastic than living tissue, or the best tissue simulant: Ordinance gelatin. As such, they greatly exagerate the effects of the temporary stretch cavity. Other common simulants used to over-emphasize the temporary stretch cavity are clay and wet newsprint. Anytime you see ammo tested in those media, ignore the results. Well, let's assume that your explanation is entirely correct. The videos weren't live meat against dead meat. They were two different bullets with different pieces of dead meat. So your explanation is irrelevant, at best. Explain why there is such a huge difference in similar pieces of meat, living or dead.

Because the higher velocity round, all else being equal, will produce a larger temporary stretch cavity. It really is physics. Size the roast just right, and the high velocity round will tear one apart, while the lower velocity round will just make a hole. P. T. barnum really was right.

Quoted: Ok wolfman. We give. The anecdotal evidence of a pot roast exploding is good enough for me. Why should I take the word of all the ballistics experts in the world when RBCD/LeMas makes short work of pot roasts? It couldn't possibly be that the marketing department is counting on people like you to buy their ammo? What was I thinking?

Stan Bulmer is counting on the second quote in my sigline being true.

Quoted: Quoted: DoubleTap .45ACP 230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95" A 230gr pill ......

Mike over at DT has some nasty ammo. Give em' a try.
Pays to buy the best. Its all my 10mm's eat.
I use the above 45 cal for carry only. Great product.

The 10mm round is definitely a magnum cartridge in terms of energy and velocity, and the most powerful cartridge that can be put into a practical size gun.

I like this round also.  Really good stuff.  I had a chance to shoot a HK MP5/10 FA gun, and you definitely need to brace yourself more, otherwise it will knock you off-balance; it's not like firing a MP5 9mm Para where you just more or less stand there.

I have a Bren Ten, that I sometimes shoot, and I would definitely NOT shoot factory loaded 10mm round in it because it appears to be not that strong and if you crack the frame or break a part etc you are SOL because the availabibility of replacement parts; for the frame is zero, and any broken parts would most likely have to be custom-made by a gunsmith, ie extractors, firing pins, springs etc.

If you're going to shoot 10mm extensively, you need to reload your own ammo, fact of life.  When you roll your own, you can load it from mild to wild.  It is no more expensive to reload than 45ACP, assuming that you have your won 10mm cases.

For my Bren Ten and Colt Delta Gold Cup, the ammo is loaded to around 45ACP levels to prevent damage to my guns.  For my LAR Grizzly(an oversized 1911, long out of production, and originally chambered from the factory for the 45Win Mag, but were conversion kits available for 50AE, 44Rem Mag, 357Rem Mag, 45ACP, and 10mm Auto), I have the 10mm conversion kit, and you load the ammo "balls to the walls."  And the recoil and muzzle flip thru a 3.5lb gun is like shooting 45ACP.

Anyways, I don't have a Glock or a S&W but shoot other peoples, those 10mms guns are engineered from the ground up to take the extensive power of the factory 10mm round.  Personally for me, you need some extensive practice to shoot accurately, as the recoil and muzzle flip from factory ammo is quite abit more than the 40S&W, which is considered by some people to "quite snappy."  Maybe that is one of the reasons why the FBI shied away from the full power 10mm load because it was just too much for occassional shooter.

BTW: FYI, the FBI very rarely gets into a high-pitched, firefight shoot-out gun battles like that in Miami a few years back, more like 20 years ago because they mostly investigate white collar crimes such as bribery, cooking the book stuff. "And of course very occassionally extra-terrestials from outer space."  Many FBI people are accountants and lawyers.

TexRdnec,
As long as you got big hands, a GLOCK 10mm should serve you well.  It's a great round, I own a G20 & 29.  The 29 would be one of the last guns I'd want to part ways with.

Quoted: The 29 would be one of the last guns I'd want to part ways with.

I was very apprehensive about purchasing a G29.
500 rounds later how I did I live without it!
I am not a large person either. The 29 does not kick my ass at all
as I consider myself a recoil wuss. Its easy.
Practice, practice folks. Follow up shots are improving tenfold as I gain
more "seat" time with the toy cannon. EXCELLENT little package.

Quoted: For my Bren Ten and Colt Delta Gold Cup, the ammo is loaded to around 45ACP levels to prevent damage to my guns.

Warlord - is that a reccomended practice within the 10mm circles or you're making that call based on common sense (which makes sense to me) to save some wear and tear on your harder to replace sidearms?

I had the chance to pick up a Delta Elite this past weekend but passed on it for that very reason.  G20 is on order currently.

Quoted: www.btammolabs.com/images/barnum.jpg

So is that crack about RCBD or 10mm in general?

Quoted: Quoted: For my Bren Ten and Colt Delta Gold Cup, the ammo is loaded to around 45ACP levels to prevent damage to my guns.   Warlord - is that a reccomended practice within the 10mm circles or you're making that call based on common sense (which makes sense to me) to save some wear and tear on your harder to replace sidearms? I had the chance to pick up a Delta Elite this past weekend but passed on it for that very reason.  G20 is on order currently.

Just my personal preferance to prevent wear and tear on my guns.  The could shoot the full power factory stuff if need be.  The full power factory round is a pretty powerful, and in my "old age," I am not up to the constant pounding of the full power loads.  And as I said before spare parts for the Bren Ten is very hard to comeby.  For the current production Glocks and the S&W 10xx-series, these guns are engineered for the full-power 10mm Auto round, and there is no problems getting spare parts if you need them because the companies are still in business and but I highly doubt will need them.  I know for a fact that the Glocks are "hell bent strong," contrary to all of the BS about kabooms etc.  The Colt Delta Elites and Bren Ten were 1st generation 10mm platforms, and there was a learning curve involved.  Good luck for another converted 10mm fan.

Hey Tx,
Get your buddy a copy of the Lone Wolf Dist. catalog and have him pick out a replacement barrel for the G20 chambered in .40S&W.  It will save him a boatload of $$ if he does not reload.  .40S&W out of the full size G20 (the feed using the standard G20 mags no problem) has a very light recoil to it.  Sort of like shooting a .38 Wadcutter in a .357 Magnum.  

I got rid of my 1911s and a Sig for my Witness compact 10mm, and have never looked back. If I think ahead enough to order Double Tap, I run that. If not, 135gr CorBon works juuuuust fine.  1400fps and 588ft/lbs, a bit less outta my compact, but definitely a superb round.

well damnit, wish i'd have ordered myself one too