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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:36:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Yep! Most of these young fellers won't appreciate who Elmer was. But I do and cannot tell you how much I value his mark. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:45:46 PM EDT
[#2]
If it's an original Lithgow, the nosecap, rear sight (underneath), receiver, bolt handle and (possibly) the mag and forend will be serialized. If it's just the bolt and the receiver, that's definately a sign it's a Jovino build. No1 bolt heads were mated for headspace with the receiver - a package deal so it's expected to see matching serials there, it's the rest of the gun that determines whether it's original. Also, the barrel should be clearly marked right under the rear handguard (pry it off), as to its date and make. It could be serialized, but will be dated if it's original to the gun. Also, a tipoff for original Lithgows is that the knox form (the area right above the chamber on the receiver) will be marked with unit or issue markings. Alot of times you'll see "2ndMD" (2nd Military District) or a similar badge. Contrary to popular internet opinion, Lithgow No1's in good shape are not common, at all. They were well used, and stayed in service longer than other issues. Remember, the Aussies never issued the No4 rifle or built it, and used the No1 well into the 50's, and stores rifles were used for cadet training and drilling, and were subsequently beat to death. It's actually more common to find WWI era Lithgows in good shape than it is to find WWII guns, which is unique to that variant. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:48:30 PM EDT
[#3]
I love my SMLE, but have a problem with the ammo. My rifle will shoot 2" groups at 100 yds with my reloads, but 30% of my brass is stressed to almost seperation on that first load. I am using Winchester brass now with a 150gr bullet and a charge of 4064 that leans toward the lighter side of the scale. Who makes thicker brass? I am already just neck resizing.
Out of the box from AIM.  After rework. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:51:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Oh, and if we're putting 1917's on display, I'll add it's British older brother - the rifle the 1917 was adapted from, the P14 (or No3 rifle):
 This is a 1918 Eddystone, and still has the volley sights intact, which are interesting in and of themselves. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:52:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Cool, I have an okay condition Lithgow bayonet. Blade says 1916. Serial number stamped on handle.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 1:54:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Winchester is pretty good brass. About the best out there is HXP (if you can still get your hands on it). You might just have a really long chamber, in which case there's not much you'll be able to do. You could have a chamber cast made and get a custom die from CH4D, they did that for me on my No1mk1, and it helped greatly. I annealed my brass, fireformed and used their die and got a few loadings out of it, even tho like yours it wanted to tear up the brass. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:09:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Hmmm, I have a Jovino import from 1943 and it's all matching. Didn't know it was rare
Here are some of mine: 1942 Savage No.4 Mk.2 Canadian marked- all matching, even the mag:  1946 Jungle Carbine-all matching-mag different:  1916 No.1 Mk.III- all matching no import marked:  With 1908 marked bayo:  Very late M1917 Eddystone:  As I said I have a Lithgow, but no pics. I'll get some and post them in a bit. BTW, I like the Enfields better than the M1917. Slicker action, thinner and lighter and better handling, IMO. Plus I'd rather have ten rounds. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:27:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for the information.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:37:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Fine job of turning that one around.  As we would say in southeast Texas, "It was as rough as a corn cob."  |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:48:02 PM EDT
[#10]
This is my Gibbs Rifle Company conversion of an Ishapore 7.62 Enfield:
 It was called the "No.7 Jungle carbine" and it makes a great gun for carrying on an ATV! |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 2:59:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Two words: healthy recoil!
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:11:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Thanks Painless for starting this thread.
I have a Savage SMLE I picked up at a Tucson gun show in the late 80's for peanuts and love it. I don't shoot it too much to preserve my small horde of surplus South African WWII, late 50's British (almost gone) and the case of WWII Winchester . I will have to dig that case out and post a photo of it. The Winchester has a definite shove as compared to the cordite push.Saving the Winchester brass to reload. I have a 1917 Enfield (Winchester ) and it is a great battle rifle. Both the SMLE and Enfield have their good and bad points but would not feel under-gunned with either. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:12:54 PM EDT
[#13]
I don't know of any official source to tell how many Jovino guns were imported, and of those how many were JUST imported and not built up or redone by Jovino, but from the collectors I know and the years I have come across them, I would say it's probably on the order of 10% of the JJCO guns are original Lithgows. From what I understand, Jovino basically bought out a huge stash of parts which included some complete, very nice guns. But, the bulk of that purchase was receivers, stocks and parts. Most that you come across are parts guns, in my experience. I'm not an expert on them, by any means, I don't know of anyone who is but if you have an all matching clean Lithgow, that's a good find no matter who imported it. Especially rare, as I mentioned, are WWII Lithgows in good shape...especially 1930's and early 40's guns. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:13:32 PM EDT
[#14]
About 20 years ago, a good friend of mine had a jungle carbine. .303, short barrel, steel buttplate, t-shirt and a 145 pound 15 year old make for alot of fun.
I remember alot of teeth gritting before I pulled the trigger, and alot of bruising and smilling after. That gun left a lasting mark on my mind (and shoulder) and I'm sure is a big part of why I love military rifles. Back then, you could get ton's of surplus ammo, berdan primed, so we just shot it and left it. ETA: I may only be 35, but Elmer Keith is a hero of mine. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:17:48 PM EDT
[#15]
I love this site,,,Thanks OP
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:23:49 PM EDT
[#16]
this seems like a appropriate thread to post this picture in!
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Posted: 1/31/2006 3:31:27 PM EDT
[#17]
If we're doing pictures, here's one of my favorite Enfield pics (my desktop at the moment):
I took this a couple years ago when a fellow Enfield collector and I were set to go out groundhog hunting on my buddy's farm. At the last minute, we decided to skip the 22-250's and both use our No4mkIT snipers, his a Longbranch and mine a BSA. We had a ball, and it turns out the MkVII ball ammo is quite ruthless on small game! 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 4:15:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Can you post a better (angle) pic ?. Looks great , but I'd like to see more of your work.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 4:49:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Hehe. I like how some people refer to the .303 British cartridge as "inferior" to other cartridges of the day. Having a 174gr FMJBT going downrange at roughly 2400FPS is more than enough to take care of any Zulu, Sudanese, Kraut, Burmese Commy, or any other enemy it may have faced. The .303 British could hold its own on the battlefield. Some have said that the combo of the No4 Enfield and the .303 British cartridge was the most deadly combat rifle-cartridge combo aside from the Garand and .30-06 and I'd have to agree. But overall, the catridges of that era were so close to each other in performance that I cringe a bit when someone says "this cartridge was better than that one". Too many variables .
When the "power" of a cartridge gets to the level of the .308Win, .30-06, 8mm Mauser, 7.7Jap, 7.62Russian, .303 Brit, etc... they are all on the same level for combat effectiveness. Period. The only exception I ever read about while reading volumes of WWI and WWII military engagements was the 6.5mm Carcano. Even then, it was only "inferior" in long range effectiveness and evidently that has just as much to do with the Carcano rifles and carbines as it did the "under-powered" cartridge. BTW... nice review of your Enfield, OP. I love my Savage No.4 in near mint condition. I prefer the larger open ring of the Enfield's rear sight to the tiny Garands. I shoot non-corrosive South African ammo, but have been saving .303 brass for a LONG time so once that supply runs out I'll be able to reload my own. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 4:54:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Here is a picture of the Jungle Carbine I picked up last fall. I still haven't had the chance to take it to the range.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:05:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Many thanks. I personally like the sights on mine about as well as any partridge sights I have ever seen. Certainly better than the Mauser, IMHO. Of course, the aperture sights on the 1903-A3 are far easier to use by these old eyes. All a matter of personal preference.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:15:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Here is some of my .303 ammo crate stash. If only they were still full.
 Still have 800 rounds of this Winchester 174 gr ball made in 1943. Crate for British manufactured .303 ca. 1954. Only one bandolier left.   In front is the South African stuff, headstamp U 41 VII My SMLE  The scope is to enjoy long-range shooting with 'older' eyes. The mount is made by Cadtecnik, available from Brownells. I guess I will try Wolfie when it gets cheaper.  |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:23:46 PM EDT
[#23]
I've never shot a "Jungle Carbine". But, from what I hear, they bark loud and kick hard.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:47:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Enigma, What is the deal with the bayonet coming out of the ceiling? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 5:57:30 PM EDT
[#25]
I've got a few, and the answer is the are only a bit louder. But the Recoil impulse is much more noticeable. They do Kick hard. Also there is a very good chance of getting one with a 'wandering zero' one of the three I have has this problem. The more you shoot the more the zero wanders off. Here is me shooting my favourate one. http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/young-kiwi/DAVID-JUNGLECARB.jpg For the other SMLE shooters here, have you tried shooting a Mad Minute. The MINIMUM standard is that you should be able to fire 15 Aimed (so they hit) shots (I fire on a 4Foot Standard target @ 300metres) in a minute. Good shooters can manage more than 20 shots. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 7:45:34 PM EDT
[#26]
I am puzzled by my No.4 Mk 2's (1954 Faz, blonde, Irish Contract) weird tendency to toss bullets in 12" vertical strings. I measured the bore, and it measures .308, not .311 like it should.
 Comments on this? The rifle was new when I bought it - unissued. I am thinking that I may need to plink it out 400+ rounds to make the rifle more accurate. I am considering center-bedding the rifle as well, I hear this works wonders. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 7:48:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Strange, I have exactly the same gun, and have found it to be perfect. *Shrug* I'd say open it up and see if the barrel is floating, or being affected by the stock. Check that all the bolts are done up correctly. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 7:52:08 PM EDT
[#28]
It's an old muzzle loader bayonet, not sure where my friends room mate found it. But we just hung it on a hook in the ceiling. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 7:56:27 PM EDT
[#29]
I can do that! This was one of the worst C&R's I've ever started on. The dried on cosmo had to be sand blasted off.  Not really a restoration on this rifle as I used Brownells bake-on finish (first time) on most of the metal with a BLO finish on the stock.   
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:00:28 PM EDT
[#30]
heres my Aussie No1Mk3 EX SNIPER....and my No4Mk1 British made rifle.....
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:17:28 PM EDT
[#31]
Well, the Jungle Carbine doesn't have a metal buttplate. What it has is much worse. It has a buttpad made of the hardest rubber known to mankind and it has a smaller area than a flat metal buttplate, turning it into a recoil concentrater. It kicks harder than a Steyr M-95 on steroids. Mine is very accurate though, but ouch.
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:27:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Ogden (Utah) Arsenal, Elmer Keith. Nice. I remember fondly the O'Connor/Keith "wars" of yesteryear. Those were the days... |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:42:00 PM EDT
[#33]
As you can see the Rifle was re-designed to assist those who felt the Full size 303 was not 'man' enough http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c110/young-kiwi/DNY-303-NO51945.jpg for your info, I bought this one so I could get the bayonet, since the rifle and bayonet are about the same price if purcahsed seperately. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:44:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Drool. I need one of those bayos! Is it British or Indian?
Oh and the flash-hider, doesn't. That picture is great! LOL!!!!!! I still love the little carbine though; very handy. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 8:53:35 PM EDT
[#35]
British Bayonet, Original. This is My 1945 rifle (BSA if I remember correctly), My 'Nice' one is a 1947 Rifle (ROF Fazakerley made) (that's what I am shooting on Page 3) I can't quite remember which is was made in which factory off the top of my head. It could be the other way around |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:00:06 PM EDT
[#36]
Very nice. My rifle is a 1946 BSA. There's a pic on the last page.
They kick hard but I like the JC's alot. If I had to choose a bolt gun to go to war with, that would be the one. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:05:58 PM EDT
[#37]
+1 Same here. The '47 has the metal Nose cap and the 'refinements' of the last year of manufacture. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:08:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Yeah, I need to find a nice one with a nose cap. Nice rifles, mate!
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:15:13 PM EDT
[#39]
DCRA .308
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:16:16 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:25:04 PM EDT
[#41]
 I love my Jungle Carbine as well (1946), but the recoil on that thing is just ridiculuos !! |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:56:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Interesting setup on the DCRA. I have one, but it's still in it's single-shot match trim, with Parker Hale rear and a globe front. Mine has a welded plate under the feed ramp to restrict it to single-only. What's the story on yours? Did you put it into its present "T" trim? |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 9:58:28 PM EDT
[#43]
You should shoot a Berthier Carbine, if you want to feel REAL recoil. It's probably about on par with a short 12 guage shooting 3" magnum 00 buck, but has the added benefit of a steel buttplate and a straight stock. I don't think the No5 is really bad, recoil wise. It's healthy, but not abusive. |
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Posted: 1/31/2006 10:10:04 PM EDT
[#44]
Had an opportunity to pick up at least two of those at a gunshop a few years back,but passed up the opportunity. They were still in the tar paper wrap and had if i recall metal tags still attached to the trigger guards. Still kicking myself over that one. 
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Posted: 1/31/2006 10:18:07 PM EDT
[#45]
I've had a No.4 for about a year now and never fired it. Gonna do it this weekend. |
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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:56:17 AM EDT
[#46]
Very nice rifle. I'd like to see what accuracy could be "wrung-out" of these old rifles with a good scope. Time for another "gun rumor".  The Brits would admit that the .303 could not match some other rifles at 100 yards in shooting small groups. But the Brits really believed that the .303 would "settle-down" at longer ranges and that the groups would actually shrink at long ranges. That is, they believed that the MOA was smaller at longer ranges due to this "settling" of the bullets. Their snipers were very confident with these old rifles. |
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