Bush wants to trim the numbers of Army Reserve and National Guard troops. WTF?!

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bush wants to trim the numbers of Army Reserve and National Guard troops. WTF?!

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:04:58 PM EDT

Someone explain why the hell he's doing this, and how it's going to work?

LINK

Bush Wants Army Reserve Trimmed
Associated Press | January 28, 2006
WASHINGTON - President Bush will use his new budget to propose cutting the size of the Army Reserve to its lowest level in three decades and stripping up to $4 billion from two fighter aircraft programs.

The proposals, likely to face opposition on Capitol Hill, come as the Defense Department struggles to trim personnel costs and other expenses to pay for the war in Iraq and a host of other pricey aircraft and high-tech programs. Bush will send his 2007 budget to Congress on Feb. 6.

The proposed Army Reserve cut is part of a broader plan to achieve a new balance of troop strength and combat power among the active Army, the National Guard and reserves to fight the global war on terrorism and to defend the homeland.

The Army sent a letter to members of Congress on Thursday outlining the plan. A copy was provided to The Associated Press.

Under the plan, the authorized troop strength of the Army Reserve would drop from 205,000 - the current number of slots it is allowed - to 188,000, the actual number of soldiers it had at the end of 2005. Because of recruiting and other problems, the Army Reserve has been unable to fill its ranks to its authorized level.

Army leaders have said they are taking a similar approach to shrinking the National Guard. They are proposing to cut that force from its authorized level of 350,000 soldiers to 333,000, the actual number now on the rolls.

Some in Congress have vowed to fight the National Guard cuts. Its soldiers and resources are controlled by state governors unless Guard units are mobilized by the president for federal duty, as Bush did after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

"I remain convinced that we do not have a large enough force," Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., said in a letter to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Proposals to cut funding in two key jet fighter programs were described by defense analysts and congressional aides, some of whom spoke on condition of anonymity because the reductions have not been announced.

One plan would eliminate funding for an alternative engine for the Joint Strike Fighter, the military's next-generation combat plane.

The second would cut money for F-22 fighters during 2007. But it is actually a contract restructuring that would add that money back - and more - over the long run by stretching out the program for an additional two years and buying up to four more planes. The new plan calls for buying 60 aircraft through 2010, rather than 56 in the next two years.

The Joint Strike Fighter engine is being built by General Electric and England-based Rolls Royce, and the plan to dump them as suppliers has triggered intense lobbying, including a handwritten note from British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Bush.

On the homefront, the close to $2 billion cut would hit General Electric engine plants, and possibly jobs, in Ohio and Massachusetts and a Rolls Royce plant in Indiana.

"This is a big question for GE," said Loren Thompson, military analyst with the Lexington Institute think tank. "They could get shut out of the fighter engine business over the next 10 years."

The proposal would benefit Connecticut-based Pratt & Whitney, which got the original contract for the Lockheed Martin aircraft, and delivered its first engine last month.

GE spokesman Dan Meador said the alternate engine program provides competition for Pratt & Whitney, helping to drive down costs while also providing a back-up if problems arise.

"It's very important to GE and Rolls Royce, and we're performing well," he said.

Defense officials, however, said the Pratt & Whitney engine has performed well and within budget, and noted that a number of other jet fighter programs - including the F-22 - have just one engine maker. Pratt & Whitney also makes the engines for the F-22.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:10:50 PM EDT

[#1]

I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:13:50 PM EDT

[#2]

Doubletap..

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:14:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

DUPE! IBTL!

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:16:58 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

DUPE! IBTL!

+1

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:18:08 PM EDT

[#5]

Well I bet the Governors will fight the national guard cuts.

As for the other cuts, theyre not filling the slots.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:24:13 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

Explain to me how cutting slots that are not currently filled will affect our near-term warfighting capabilities.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:34:04 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

Explain to me how cutting slots that are not currently filled will affect our near-term warfighting capabilities.

It has nothing to do with anything. This is just another Bush bash based on the fact that some just want to bash him.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:36:30 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

Explain to me how cutting slots that are not currently filled will affect our near-term warfighting capabilities.

Exactly. They are cutting the available positions, not forcing anyone out. But most civilians and Active Duty personnel (incidentally) do not have the experience to understand this.

They are stopping how much it COULD grow, rather than actually shrinking it.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:38:18 PM EDT

[#9]

Woohoo! FOUR more F-22's.

Any thoughts on the single engine vendor idea? Nice in concept to have redundancy, but it does seem like a luxury we can't afford. Even if the one engine develops cost problems; it can't be as expensive as two engine programs.

That sounds like the sort of words a manager will eat later, but still, seems reasonable.

Posted: 1/29/2006 7:54:11 PM EDT

[#10]

When everyone on this board is usually so Pro-Founding Fathers, I would think you guys would be all for this.

The Founding Fathers feared a large standing army as they saw they would be more likely to get involved in foreign conflicts in which we do not belong and more likley to do harm to civilian citizens.

Posted: 1/29/2006 9:19:08 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
When everyone on this board is usually so Pro-Founding Fathers, I would think you guys would be all for this.

The Founding Fathers feared a large standing army as they saw they would be more likely to get involved in foreign conflicts in which we do not belong and more likley to do harm to civilian citizens.

Please explain how fighting in the Mid-East, in the general War On Terror, is a war in which we do not belong.

Posted: 1/29/2006 10:53:36 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Explain to me how cutting slots that are not currently filled will affect our near-term warfighting capabilities.

Exactly. They are cutting the available positions, not forcing anyone out. But most civilians and Active Duty personnel (incidentally) do not have the experience to understand this.

They are stopping how much it COULD grow, rather than actually shrinking it.

They are going to reduce the options available for potential soldiers to join. People such as myself in Northern California who have no interest in being a supply/support type already have to commute a stupid distance to get to a combat unit elsewhere in the State. If that unit gets cancelled, and they're hoping that we'll all happily transfer to becoming truckers, they are sadly delusional. Some people will get out as opposed to transfer, and others simply won't join up. Can you imagine going to a CalGuard recruiter in Sacramento:

"Howdy! I want to join the Guard, blow things up, break things and kill people"
"Umm.. You mean you want to be a Combat Logistician?"
"Hell no! Tanks!"
"Umm. We don't have anything like that in the State any more. There's a Chaplain Support Team in Roseville with a slot available if you're interested."
"Goodbye"

NTM

Posted: 1/29/2006 11:35:50 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

The Joint Strike Fighter engine is being built by General Electric and England-based Rolls Royce, and the plan to dump them as suppliers has triggered intense lobbying, including a handwritten note from British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Bush.

On the homefront, the close to $2 billion cut would hit General Electric engine plants, and possibly jobs, in Ohio and Massachusetts and a Rolls Royce plant in Indiana.

If that plan goes ahead there is a very good chance Britain will pull out of the JSF project and cancel it's order for 160 aircraft.

ANdy

Posted: 1/29/2006 11:39:05 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think he's lost his fuckin' marbles. We're thinned out in Iraq, The stop loss is being clamped on 50k soldiers and now he's going to majorly cut Army reserve and NG enlistment slots. Nice way to fight a war and prepare for an impending war with Iran.

DUPE! IBTL!

+1

edit: for silliness

Posted: 1/29/2006 11:42:41 PM EDT

[#15]

Gwarsh.

Posted: 1/30/2006 12:08:09 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
They are going to reduce the options available for potential soldiers to join.

How so?

They are just changing the authorized levels to match current levels. Unless there is some other restructuring going on, the location of various postings will not be changed.

Posted: 1/30/2006 12:16:02 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
They are going to reduce the options available for potential soldiers to join. People such as myself in Northern California who have no interest in being a supply/support type already have to commute a stupid distance to get to a combat unit elsewhere in the State. If that unit gets cancelled, and they're hoping that we'll all happily transfer to becoming truckers, they are sadly delusional. Some people will get out as opposed to transfer, and others simply won't join up. Can you imagine going to a CalGuard recruiter in Sacramento:

"Howdy! I want to join the Guard, blow things up, break things and kill people"
"Umm.. You mean you want to be a Combat Logistician?"
"Hell no! Tanks!"
"Umm. We don't have anything like that in the State any more. There's a Chaplain Support Team in Roseville with a slot available if you're interested."
"Goodbye"

NTM

When I came over from active duty it was already like this. I could have remained in my primary MOS, however there was only 1 platoon of them in the state and they were on the opposite end of the state from me. When I said that wasnt an option I was given a list of available units and MOS's within them. It was up to me to decide on one if I was going to join. If there weren't any slots available, that MOS/unit wasnt an option.

Posted: 1/30/2006 12:16:49 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
When everyone on this board is usually so Pro-Founding Fathers, I would think you guys would be all for this.

The Founding Fathers feared a large standing army as they saw they would be more likely to get involved in foreign conflicts in which we do not belong and more likley to do harm to civilian citizens.

Please explain how fighting in the Mid-East, in the general War On Terror, is a war in which we do not belong.

Also explain how a rag tag army of Militia is supposed to fight against a modern Army armed with Tanks, Aircraft, Artillery, etc..

Not having a standing Army might have worked when all soliders did was line up and shoot at each other, but doesnt work with modern equipment.

Posted: 1/30/2006 1:29:10 AM EDT

[#19]

I can't speak for the NG, but in the USAR there is a lot of fat that needs to be trimmed.

A large portion of it comes from training units designed just to teach AIT skills to reclassing reservists. They will come on on AT once or twice a year to teach to reservists that are reclassing to that MOS. Useless dead weight, when what they should be doing is having the real active duty school set up a reserve class modified to fit the time table needed for reservists. Then move all those bodies from non-deploying units into actual deploying units.

If they are trimming these useless billets and redirecting bodies into the deployable units, it is a good change I can get behind. Way too many reservists are "hiding out" in training units that don't deploy and are so NCO heavy promotions are far too easy.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:02:39 AM EDT

[#20]

If the UK pulls out, it'll boost the cost of the F-35, meaning we'll probably pull our hundred out as well. I don't know what we'd buy though...

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:07:09 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
If the UK pulls out, it'll boost the cost of the F-35, meaning we'll probably pull our hundred out as well. I don't know what we'd buy though...

I hear you guys may be cutting your order back already...

ANdy

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:08:49 AM EDT

[#22]

Good. If the JSF program crashes and burns, then perhaps the fighter mafia will give proper funding to the UCAV program.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:09:18 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Also explain how a rag tag army of Militia is supposed to fight against a modern Army armed with Tanks, Aircraft, Artillery, etc..

Not having a standing Army might have worked when all soliders did was line up and shoot at each other, but doesnt work with modern equipment.

How do you suppose the swiss do it ? They have some nifty air assets BTW

Decentralized military or militia need not be full time to `be modern and effective, our constitution provides for the necessity of a full time navy to protect commerce such as the boomers with ICBMs' we do not need flattops with fleets to protect the bomb magnets.

The majority of high tech military gear comes from the private sector, even SF people take front Sight courses to improve their marksmenship.

The private or small non-superstate is very efficient and ingenious, large central governments always collapse from inefficiency.

If we run into such debts as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in the twenty-four, and give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses;
And the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they do now, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains around the necks of our fellow sufferers; And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second, that second for a third, and so on 'til the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering... And the forehorse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression. ~Thomas Jefferson-

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
� Theodore Roosevelt

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:13:36 AM EDT

[#24]

There is so much fat we could trim its not even funny.
maybe they will just cut the slots for pregnant soldiers that don't deploy anyway/

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:15:56 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Explain to me how cutting slots that are not currently filled will affect our near-term warfighting capabilities.

Exactly. They are cutting the available positions, not forcing anyone out. But most civilians and Active Duty personnel (incidentally) do not have the experience to understand this.

They are stopping how much it COULD grow, rather than actually shrinking it.

They are going to reduce the options available for potential soldiers to join. People such as myself in Northern California who have no interest in being a supply/support type already have to commute a stupid distance to get to a combat unit elsewhere in the State. If that unit gets cancelled, and they're hoping that we'll all happily transfer to becoming truckers, they are sadly delusional. Some people will get out as opposed to transfer, and others simply won't join up. Can you imagine going to a CalGuard recruiter in Sacramento:

"Howdy! I want to join the Guard, blow things up, break things and kill people"
"Umm.. You mean you want to be a Combat Logistician?"
"Hell no! Tanks!"
"Umm. We don't have anything like that in the State any more. There's a Chaplain Support Team in Roseville with a slot available if you're interested."
"Goodbye"

NTM

I don't know about other states.

Here in KY they are sloly phasing out Armor, but Infantry is hot with something like 4 unit throughout the state (that is probably short). Add to that the Combat Engineers and the Field artillery, all of which have mob'ed or will mob soon and they are not going to be cutting any MOS's which are Combat related nor Combat support related.

If you really want to be NG and there are not units close by, look across the nearest state line. You can join the Guard in the next state over if they have a slot you want.

Lastly, they will be cutting slots that people are not filling, not slots that people are going into.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:23:45 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
There is so much fat we could trim its not even funny.
maybe they will just cut the slots for pregnant soldiers that don't deploy anyway/

I have no doubt you are right but one base I know of have 40% that are stop loss, others with PTSD and on mood drugs to control it, thats no way to run the defense of America, if people do not volunteer to defend their own nation then let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:35:36 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Quoted:
There is so much fat we could trim its not even funny.
maybe they will just cut the slots for pregnant soldiers that don't deploy anyway/

I have no doubt you are right but one base I know of have 40% that are stop loss, others with PTSD and on mood drugs to control it, thats no way to run the defense of America, if people do not volunteer to defend their own nation then let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

The fun part is, we have a very high concentration of people that can, but won't, while trumpeting the work of soldiers as their own, because they support them.....

Edit: That sentance is so fragmented, I can't believe it...

Posted: 1/30/2006 1:42:26 PM EDT

[#28]

Lastly, they will be cutting slots that people are not filling, not slots that people are going into.

Sadly, not entirely true.

If they really were cutting only the empty slots, they'd be dropping a company from this forward support battalion, a platoon from that tank company, and so on.

Instead, they are cutting slots from units which are partially filled. So in addition to the empty platoon of that tank company, they are also cutting the three filled platoons, with the expectation that the soldiers will happily accept their reassignment to truck duty (or whatever) and have long, happy careers in the Guard.

NTM

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:20:20 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Lastly, they will be cutting slots that people are not filling, not slots that people are going into.

Sadly, not entirely true.

If they really were cutting only the empty slots, they'd be dropping a company from this forward support battalion, a platoon from that tank company, and so on.

Instead, they are cutting slots from units which are partially filled. So in addition to the empty platoon of that tank company, they are also cutting the three filled platoons, with the expectation that the soldiers will happily accept their reassignment to truck duty (or whatever) and have long, happy careers in the Guard.

NTM

We are getting gutted in NY. Infantry has been trimmed down like crazy. Units moved across state, disbanded etc. We are loosing Cav, Infantry, Maintenance, but pickup up more MP, Truck drivers, non combat engineers. Signal has grown alot more also. It is so hard to recruit for units because we do not know where they will be when the soldier comes out of AIT.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:30:43 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:

The Joint Strike Fighter engine is being built by General Electric and England-based Rolls Royce, and the plan to dump them as suppliers has triggered intense lobbying, including a handwritten note from British Prime Minister Tony Blair to Bush.

On the homefront, the close to $2 billion cut would hit General Electric engine plants, and possibly jobs, in Ohio and Massachusetts and a Rolls Royce plant in Indiana.

If that plan goes ahead there is a very good chance Britain will pull out of the JSF project and cancel it's order for 160 aircraft.

ANdy

Not to mention that Rolls Royce has the most experience in producing a VSTOVL engine.

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:33:15 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Lastly, they will be cutting slots that people are not filling, not slots that people are going into.

Sadly, not entirely true.

If they really were cutting only the empty slots, they'd be dropping a company from this forward support battalion, a platoon from that tank company, and so on.

Instead, they are cutting slots from units which are partially filled. So in addition to the empty platoon of that tank company, they are also cutting the three filled platoons, with the expectation that the soldiers will happily accept their reassignment to truck duty (or whatever) and have long, happy careers in the Guard.

NTM

We are getting gutted in NY. Infantry has been trimmed down like crazy. Units moved across state, disbanded etc. We are loosing Cav, Infantry, Maintenance, but pickup up more MP, Truck drivers, non combat engineers. Signal has grown alot more also. It is so hard to recruit for units because we do not know where they will be when the soldier comes out of AIT.

Roger! My old company is now support and i have to drive an additonal 45 minutes to my Infantry unit . On a + side were in a better BDE now with more funding

I dont get it but glad to be in my new company . Also chain of command is on frenzy to boot out all shitbags .

Posted: 1/30/2006 2:40:29 PM EDT

[#32]

Uh, the NG and the Reserve isn't maintained as a source of personnel for routine overseas intervention...

Its supposed to be our emergency RESERVE just in case the shit really hits the fan with another major power and we find ourselves in a fight for survival.

I'm glad we're so positive that we're never going to be in that situation that we can cut that reserve...

Btw, the President doesn't decide the size of the military. Congress does.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bush wants to trim the numbers of Army Reserve and National Guard troops. WTF?!

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