Quoted: There was no United States, they were 'The Colonies' EVERYONE living in the Colonies was 'British'... no Mexicans and other illegals back in those days!

The population wasn't homogenous.

If the King had listened to Parliament and granted the 'Colonists' representation in Parliament, (Remember, 'No Taxation without Representation'), the situation would have been defused. The Colonies actually didn't want to seperate from Britain.. read up on the 'Olive Branch Petition'.

Public opinion depended highly on the period of time we're talking about. At or about the Summer of 1776 the population was split into thirds.

George Washington was an Officer in the Kings Army before the war, as were many of his officers and men.

He was an officer in the VA militia. He was a Major and a LtCol, but was rejected when he applied for a regular army commission.

Britain had no stomach for the war, it was hugely unpopular back in England, so many men refused to join the army in case they were sent to fight against their 'own people' in the Colonies, the King was reduced to using German Mercenaries and Scottish Regiments to do much of the fighting. Much of the fighting was the locals duking it out. Over half a million 'Americans' left for Canada or sailed back to Britain after the War.

We call them Tories.

Both sides were happy to call it quits. The 'Americans' settled for a poor peace in their anxiety to end the war. Britain was willing to concede much more territory, (a large chunk of Canada), if needed to get a peace treaty.

You conviently skipped over the part where the Colonists managed to widen the war by suckering France into the conflict. A poor peace? Not for us. There wasn't much the Colonists could really expect against the world's superpower at the time. Not only that the French, when the Brits tried to get them to sell us out, didn't.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot.  A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down. And that same year he played a gay transvestite in Sweet November >cough< I must have missed that one... He was also in a Harry Potter movie a while back....

Actually, hes a major character in all of the Harry Potter movies

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: George Washington was an Officer in the Kings Army before the war, as were many of his officers and men. He was an officer in the VA militia. He was a Major and a LtCol, but was rejected when he applied for a regular army commission. Jeebus dport! I was just posting historical cliff notes, not a concise treaty on the War of Independence.

Just wanted to point out he wasn't a British Army regular. He was militia.

That website you have there is OK, but not the most detailed.

Quoted: Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot.  A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.

 I read somewhere that he actually got Gibson to tone the "evil British" theme  down a little during filming, if you can imagine that.  Same article said that Isaacs was friendly and a great guy to the extras/re-enactors on the set.  

  He is a pretty good convincing actor if that is the case.

Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.

what war did he draft dodge?
yes, his father moved the whole family to Australia to avoid Vietnam, but Gibson was born in 1956, the war was over by the time he turned 18

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy

he didn't turn 18 until 1974. war was over

Quoted: Quoted: I love it, even though it is fast and loose with the facts. I think that movie fits so well with 2006 too. You've got one army that wants to fight by the established rules of gentlemanly warfare.  After all, they are the best navy in the world and one of the best armies, and they're only fighting "farmers with pitchforks".  The one man that wants to kick ass and take names is demonized.   On the other side you have a master of asymetrical warfare.  "A ghost or some damn thing, carrying a Cherokee tomahawk" who is learned and skilled in guerilla warfare from past conflicts on the frontier.  He uses hit and run tactics, ambushes supply trains, aims for officers, and doesn't play by the rulebook.  He's also "pretty impressive for farmers with pitchforks." Gee, here we are in 2006, the mightest army to ever move across the earth, and we lack the political will to take off the gloves against a bunch of goat herders led by a ghost or some damn thing who carries a Soviet Krinkov.   Sounds like you missed the message of the movie. You take "the gloves off" and go after their families, and you only mae more neutrals your enemy. Jesus people, read some fucking history.

History will teach us two things:

1) You cannot WIN a political war.

2) Carpet Bombing works.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy

Yes, there was...by the time he turned 18, we were sending troops home.  Plus, how easy do you think it would be for him to defy his father and get the money to buy a ticket to the US after becoming an Aussie citizen?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy he didn't turn 18 until 1974. war was over US Army wasn't 'over'.... and the last US military personell left Vietnam in 1975.

US was bringing troops home starting in 73.  You're being disingenuous.

Quoted: You guys need to fucking ligthen up.  It is a fucking movie.  I thought it was entertaining.

I'm a park ranger for the National Park Service. I work at the place where America was born, Concord and Lexington. We work very hard to tell people the truth about what happened in the birth of our nation. I wish I had a dime for every misinformed visitor I meet who thinks that "The Patriot" is the gospel truth about the American Revolution and what we went through as a nation in becoming independent.

Face it- people get their history and opinions from TV and the movies. And they later vote, using this "education" as a basis for their beliefs. The past is whatever the tastemakers decide it will be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy

Are you an Irish citizen?  Why don't you immigrate to England, enlist and go to Afghanistan if you want somebody to fight a war, get some balls and go fight one.  Frigging poser most likely.  Makes about as much sense.

Before you run your mouth anymore, yeah I served.  Was in the Middle East in 1980.

Quoted: Quoted: Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot.  A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.  I read somewhere that he actually got Gibson to tone the "evil British" theme  down a little during filming, if you can imagine that.  Same article said that Isaacs was friendly and a great guy to the extras/re-enactors on the set.     He is a pretty good convincing actor if that is the case.

Jason Isaacs almost lost his job on "The Patriot" by trying to go to bat for the reenactors working on the set re authenticity, uniforming, historical accuracy in guns, tactics, etc. He especially objected to the wearing of red uniforms for his outfit, since the historical antecedents of the "Green Dragons", the British Legion, actually wore...well..green. The director's response was that the American people were too stupid to tell the difference, and that it would only confuse them if the British didn't all wear red, and the Continentals didn't all wear blue.

(Hey- why not have the British wear blue, and the colonists grey? Yee-ha!)

As for Mel, by all accounts, he was pretty intense on the set, and could throw tantrums that shut down filming. Well, it was an expensive film, and he had a lot riding on his shoulders, if the whole thing tanked.

Some acquantances of mine who worked on the set of The Patriot still get Xmas cards from Isaacs, seven years later. A decent guy, by all accounts.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy he didn't turn 18 until 1974. war was over US Army wasn't 'over'.... and the last US military personell left Vietnam in 1975. Fact remains, he could have joined up in the real army, and his older brother could also have served if he wanted too. ANdy

Typical a*****e post from andy. The draft ended in 1973 he turned 18 in 1974. How is he a draft dodger .
Get your facts srtaight.

Quoted: ..............................................US was bringing troops home starting in 73.  You're being disingenuous.

Yep. I was up for a two year stint.  They called me and asked if I would be interested in 3-6 months. I thought that would be anti-climactic, so went the distance.

Quoted: Quoted: Jason Isaacs played Tavington in The Patriot.  A year later he was Capt Mike Steele in Blackhawk Down.  I read somewhere that he actually got Gibson to tone the "evil British" theme  down a little during filming, if you can imagine that.  Same article said that Isaacs was friendly and a great guy to the extras/re-enactors on the set.     He is a pretty good convincing actor if that is the case.

I agree!  He really shined in his role as Tavington, and he is an EXCELLENT Lucius Malfoy in the Harry Potter movies!  I bet those evil roles are run to act out though.  Just let all your dark inner demons come out for the cameras... lol

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy he didn't turn 18 until 1974. war was over US Army wasn't 'over'.... and the last US military personell left Vietnam in 1975. Fact remains, he could have joined up in the real army, and his older brother could also have served if he wanted too. ANdy

I despise true draft dodgers as much as the next guy, but I think you are being a little hard on the guy here.  His family moved him out of the country.  Do you think he would risk alienating presumably his entire family so he could fly home to enlist in the army?

In 1974 the army was leaving Vietnam after being betrayed by our stateside politicians.  I can't imagine many teenage boys in 1974 or any time wanting to volunteer to go over there and deal with terrorist attacks, etc. so they could help with "Vietnamization" and generally watch the NVA roll toward Saigon virtually unchecked.

I think this movie did a lot to show that our freedom was won by regular citizens who grabbed their own rifles and went to war.  I applaud this movie for that if nothing else.  There was no US Army and nothing but the hangmans noose of a traitor waiting for these guys if they failed and still they fought.

Also, didn't the first skirmishes at Lexington and Concord occur because the Brits were coming to confiscate the colonists' weapons?  I think there is a moral there, but maybe I'm silly...

Quoted: Good movie!  I got a laugh out of the part where they considered eating the dogs.  Even funnier was the feigned return of the officer's dogs only to have them follow Gibson back out of the gate.   Heck, there were a lot of good parts in that movie:     Scarecrows disguised as British officers Ambush scenes The inked laced tea The ship explosion with the lady claiming they were "fireworks" Solid entertainment.

Actually eating dogs was an accepted practice in a lot a cultures, including some white frontiersmen back in the day.

I understand that Sir Ernest Shackleton's party considered their sled dogs to be some of the best eating they had on their entire expedition back to safety after the Endurance was crushed in the antarctic pack ice...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ANdy Typical a*****e post from andy. The draft ended in 1973 he turned 18 in 1974. How is he a draft dodger . Get your facts srtaight. FACT: His father moved his sons out of the US to dodge the draft. Did his father or Mel know the draft would end in 1973? Now carry on defending the liberals... "A lot of what he does is good," Gibson said. "I've been having my doubts of late, and it's all to do with these weapons [of mass destruction] that we can't seem to find, and like, why did we go over there [to Iraq]." Mel Gibson discussing GWB and Iraq on Sean Hannity's Radio Show

How many different ways does it have to be said, his father moved him, how is HE, Mel gibson a draft dodger?

Quoted: I would imagine if I was as patriotic as Gibson says he is, on point of principle I would have gone back and joined up in 1974 just to prove a point. ANdy

The war was, for all intents and purposes, over. The Paris Accords were signed on January 27, 1973. That meant the official end of US involvement in Viet Nam.

Or are you one of those people who believes that you can't have pride in your country unless you've served in the military? Why does military service equal patriotism, and no military service equal no patriotism? What makes it so that you must serve in the military to have pride in your country? What about those who are/were disabled? Can't they be patriotic?

Quoted: FACT: His father moved his sons out of the US to dodge the draft. Did his father or Mel know the draft would end in 1973?

So you expect a teenager to defy his father, run away, somehow raise enough money to fly from Australia to the US all in order to enlist in the military underage in a war that EVERYONE DID KNOW was winding down?  What ARE you smoking?

Quoted: I would imagine if I was as patriotic as Gibson says he is, on point of principle I would have gone back and joined up in 1974 just to prove a point.

Yeah, because EVERYONE'S political views are fully formed when they're not even 18 and NO ONE ever grows or matures, right?  Or are you speaking from personal experience here?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would imagine if I was as patriotic as Gibson says he is, on point of principle I would have gone back and joined up in 1974 just to prove a point. ANdy The war was, for all intents and purposes, over. The Paris Accords were signed on January 27, 1973. That meant the official end of US involvement in Viet Nam. Or are you one of those people who believes that you can't have pride in your country unless you've served in the military? Why does military service equal patriotism, and no military service equal no patriotism? What makes it so that you must serve in the military to have pride in your country? What about those who are/were disabled? Can't they be patriotic? Serving in the Military is the ultimate vote of confidence in your country, as in 'I love this country so much I will die for it'..... Andy

Well Andy, as an Irishman you must have had strong reasons to be willing to fight for the British, but I can't imagine what they would be and I won't ask.

Anyway, I probably WOULD have enlisted in 1974 too.  All the anti-American and anti-military SHIT that was floating around at that time royally pissed me off and I was only 5 years old!  I came from a family of military men and I was very proud of them.  I had two uncles in the Nam, a grandfather in WWI and have had relatives in every major war going back to the Revolution and even before.

I DID join up when I was 17 and have always been a proud supporter of our military.  I just think in this case bad-mouthing someone who was on the opposite side of the pacific surrounded by an anti-war family, and was presumably a broke teenage kid at the time, for not flying home to enlist to serve in a war that the politicians had already lost for us is just a bit unfair.

You wouldn't be influenced by the fact that some of his movies are just a tad anti-British, would you?

Quoted: I'm glad you can't imagine me, for that's exactly what I did. It has something weird to do with a thing called duty, honor, and dept to those who served before me.  You know silly stuff like that.

My hat's off to you Sir.  I probably would have too.  I STILL think some people are being VERY unfair to Mel Gibson on this issue.

Quoted: 1776: The 'New' Americans take. Never ceased to be amazed by the concepts put forward about the War of Independence, usually by people who's ancestors didn't step off the boat at Ellis Island till the 1900's In the beginning there was this peaceful country called 'The United States'. Then this evil English King called King George tried to tax them. When the people said 'NO!', he invaded the United States and started Massacreing all the people. Then this General called George Washington and the US Army defeated them and they all sailed back to England.... The End. Actually, There was no United States, they were 'The Colonies' EVERYONE living in the Colonies was 'British'... no Mexicans and other illegals back in those days! If the King had listened to Parliament and granted the 'Colonists' representation in Parliament, (Remember, 'No Taxation without Representation'), the situation would have been defused. The Colonies actually didn't want to seperate from Britain.. read up on the 'Olive Branch Petition'. George Washington was an Officer in the Kings Army before the war, as were many of his officers and men. Britain had no stomach for the war, it was hugely unpopular back in England, so many men refused to join the army in case they were sent to fight against their 'own people' in the Colonies, the King was reduced to using German Mercenaries and Scottish Regiments to do much of the fighting. Much of the fighting was the locals duking it out. Over half a million 'Americans' left for Canada or sailed back to Britain after the War. Both sides were happy to call it quits. The 'Americans' settled for a poor peace in their anxiety to end the war. Britain was willing to concede much more territory, (a large chunk of Canada), if needed to get a peace treaty. The War of Independence was a just war fought for just reasons between it's OWN people. Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   It's a Hollywierd thing.. look at 'Pearl Harbor'... what a disgraceful travesty of a film! The utterly ridiculous 'Pylon Race' between the Zeros and the P40's reduced the courageous actions of the few pilots that did get into the air to merely spectacle. ANdy

America's reasons for separating from England.

Declaration of Independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would imagine if I was as patriotic as Gibson says he is, on point of principle I would have gone back and joined up in 1974 just to prove a point. ANdy The war was, for all intents and purposes, over. The Paris Accords were signed on January 27, 1973. That meant the official end of US involvement in Viet Nam. Or are you one of those people who believes that you can't have pride in your country unless you've served in the military? Why does military service equal patriotism, and no military service equal no patriotism? What makes it so that you must serve in the military to have pride in your country? What about those who are/were disabled? Can't they be patriotic? Serving in the Military is the ultimate vote of confidence in your country, as in 'I love this country so much I will die for it'..... Andy

You know why people serve for there country and die? So some people can have the freedom not to go in the army and die!

BTW: Isnt this movie about how france saved the USA?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well Andy, as an Irishman you must have had strong reasons to be willing to fight for the British, but I can't imagine what they would be and I won't ask. The only problem was the trouble in Northern Ireland at the time. Tempers were running very high after Bloody Sunday a a couple of years previously, and as I'm a catholic and my mothers family were hard core republicans..... I come from a military family who have traditionally always joined up in Britain for the last 200 years. My son has done the same. ANdy

Well then, as not only a staunch ally, but someone who serves in the same service a great many of my ancestors and distant cousins do today THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!  

Does no one know that there WERE Australian troops devoted to 'Nam?

Quoted: Well Andy, as an Irishman you must have had strong reasons to be willing to fight for the British, but I can't imagine what they would be and I won't ask.

As an Irishman, the main reason I'm in the US Army is a policy of 'If the country's good enough for me to want to come live there, it's likely good enough for me to want to serve it'

I see no reason why a similar policy cannot be said to exist for Irishmen currently in the British Army. (I do not make any attribution to Andy's motives, I just put it as a counter to your argument)

Admittedly, there is a long tradition of the Wild Geese: Irish people who don't care who they're fighting with/for as long as they get to fight someone, somewhere. We are often found on both sides of the same war.

NTM

Hmmm I don't see a lot of British guys posting pictures of their M4geries. Wonder why? Oh yeah.... a little thing called "freedom".

No matter how hard the bureaucrats try to screw up our country, we're still a hell of a lot better off than those silly tea drinkers across the ocean. Personally, I'm pretty damn happy that my ancestors got tired of that bullshit over in Europe.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Draft Dodging 'Born Again Patriots' like Mel Gibson, rewriting history does nothing to enhance the war and merely demeans it's significance.   You're being quite disingenuous to call Mel Gibson a draft dodger.  His father moved their family to Australia when he was still a teenager to keep his sons out of Vietnam...that's hardly Mel's fault. There was nothing stopping him buying a ticket home and serving if he wanted to... ANdy

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would imagine if I was as patriotic as Gibson says he is, on point of principle I would have gone back and joined up in 1974 just to prove a point. Yeah, because EVERYONE'S political views are fully formed when they're not even 18 and NO ONE ever grows or matures, right?  Or are you speaking from personal experience here? Don't start ricky.... you know were it will end up!

Yep...with you slinging around personal insults because you can't string together a coherent argument.

the thing that pisses me off about that scene is how the townspeople make no effort at all to escape. Were talkin breaking the windows and jumping out, yeah sure your gonna get cut but you will have a chance. Then there is the possibility of using one of those pews as a battering ram. Get enough men on that thing and you should be able to get the doors open. But noooooooooooooo they just stood there with their thumbs up their butts and cried.

I bought a tomahawk because of that movie.

Quoted: Does no one know that there WERE Australian troops devoted to 'Nam?

From all I've ever read they were some of our best allies in that hellhole.

Quoted: Quoted: Good movie!  I got a laugh out of the part where they considered eating the dogs.  Even funnier was the feigned return of the officer's dogs only to have them follow Gibson back out of the gate.   Heck, there were a lot of good parts in that movie:     Scarecrows disguised as British officers Ambush scenes The inked laced tea The ship explosion with the lady claiming they were "fireworks" Solid entertainment.     Actually eating dogs was an accepted practice in a lot a cultures, including some white frontiersmen back in the day. I understand that Sir Ernest Shackleton's party considered their sled dogs to be some of the best eating they had on their entire expedition back to safety after the Endurance was crushed in the antarctic pack ice...

Roald Amundsen's party ate their ponies as they went along on on their trek to the South Pole in 1911. They reckoned the ponies in their planning for the expedition to be first to the South Pole (beating Robert Scott) to be simultaneously part of their transport and food.