Quoted: The reason your men will never respect you is because no matter how hard your school was, no matter how rough you had it, you'll never understand what it's like to be PFC "sawgunner" in Iraq.

I respectfully disagree.

Your men WILL respect you, but only IF you look after them.

It doesn't mean being their buddy. It means their knowing that you're the boss, but that they can count on you for what they need you to do. After that, let them do what THEY are supposed to do.

It's surprisingly simple, IMO, which is why I'm often left wondering why so many people fuck it up.

This argument is a very easy one to settle.

WWCD - What Would Chesty Do?

Chesty Puller went to VMI, therefore it is automatically the greatest military academy ever conceived.

Problem solved.

Quoted: ROTC who chooses the Marine route must also attend OCS.  It's called bulldog and last six weeks. Wow... is that six WHOLE weeks?  I AM impressed.    And you wonder why we call you six-week wonders. OCS depending on what type of commissioning source is 10 to 12 weeks.  The Naval Academy stopped sending students to OCS in the early 90's after high attrition rates. Oh REALLY?!? And do tell me where you got this info.  Or is this just one of those "facts?"

This is pretty common knowledge on the green side.

OCS is a screening process to select officers for additional training. NROTC Marine option mids must also go through the same screening process. So between PLC/OCC/MECEP/ROTC, something like 80% of officers were coming through OCS. For commonality, the Corps tried to have that last 20% (Academy grads) do the same.

Didn't work. Attrit rates were unacceptable.
Now, they may not have given them enough incentive. The bulldog guys (and gals) have their 4 year scholarship riding on these 6 weeks, and most of them graduate. The mids didn't. Hey, that's what happened.

So now we have to review all 6 weeks of material in TBS just to accomodate that bunch that didn't attend OCS.

Those are the facts.

Does not making it through OCS mean you're a worse officer? Who knows. But the NROTC mids could hack it and the Academy grads couldn't. Read into it what you want.

Quoted: This argument is a very easy one to settle. WWCD - What Would Chesty Do? Chesty Puller went to VMI, therefore it is automatically the greatest military academy ever conceived. Problem solved.

Yeah, but Chesty didn't graduate VMI. He enlisted!

Quoted: Quoted: This argument is a very easy one to settle. WWCD - What Would Chesty Do? Chesty Puller went to VMI, therefore it is automatically the greatest military academy ever conceived. Problem solved. Yeah, but Chesty didn't graduate VMI. He enlisted!

it's not an academy, it's an institute , kinda like the same place you put crazy people!

and you're right, he didn't graduate from VMI, but there were extenuating circumstances. he wanted to go to war, and he was chesty, a god of war!

Quoted: Quoted: ROTC who chooses the Marine route must also attend OCS.  It's called bulldog and last six weeks. Wow... is that six WHOLE weeks?  I AM impressed.    And you wonder why we call you six-week wonders. OCS depending on what type of commissioning source is 10 to 12 weeks.  The Naval Academy stopped sending students to OCS in the early 90's after high attrition rates. Oh REALLY?!? And do tell me where you got this info.  Or is this just one of those "facts?" This is pretty common knowledge on the green side. OCS is a screening process to select officers for additional training. NROTC Marine option mids must also go through the same screening process. So between PLC/OCC/MECEP/ROTC, something like 80% of officers were coming through OCS. For commonality, the Corps tried to have that last 20% (Academy grads) do the same. Didn't work. Attrit rates were unacceptable. Now, they may not have given them enough incentive. The bulldog guys (and gals) have their 4 year scholarship riding on these 6 weeks, and most of them graduate. The mids didn't. Hey, that's what happened. So now we have to review all 6 weeks of material in TBS just to accomodate that bunch that didn't attend OCS. Those are the facts. Does not making it through OCS mean you're a worse officer? Who knows. But the NROTC mids could hack it and the Academy grads couldn't. Read into it what you want.

That doesn't sound the least bit suspect to you?!?  Sounds more like the mids had put themselves through four years of ass-pain while you were drinking with your buds and they just didn't give two shits about the precious "bulldog" program.  You, on the other hand, hadn't done anything more military than wear a uniform on wednesday and march a little in the local parade, probably thought it was the coolest thing in the world (I would have if I had been in your position).  

If the mids didn't make it though the "bulldog" program, why are they making it through the TBS portion that covers the same thing?  I'm not buying the story.  How many Academy grads who go to buds attrite?  How many Academy grads who go through flight school attrite (for other than medical reasons)?  Exactly.  Fewer than their counterparts.
Matt

Quoted: The reason your men will never respect you is because no matter how hard your school was, no matter how rough you had it, you'll never understand what it's like to be PFC "sawgunner" in Iraq.

I disagree.  They will never know what it's like to be a fighter-pilot.  That fact hardly means I do not respect them.  I'd say if there is a lack of respect for anyone in the military it is more telling about the person unwilling to show respect than it is if the object of said lack.  

Everyone in the military who serves well and honorably has EARNED the respect of their peers, subordinates and superiors whether those people are smart enough to show it or not.  

The difference on this thread is that, while we USNA grads may make fun of the ROTC and OCS pukes, we respect them and their service.  You guys calling us ring-knockers in the manner you do is like Jesse Jackson calling President Bush racist.  You are only demonstrating your own bias and inability to make an objective assessment.
Matt

Quoted: That's a funny quote coming from someone who never attended OCS or ROTC.  I'm not sure if you're a Marine.  ROTC who chooses the Marine route must also attend OCS.  It's called bulldog and last six weeks.  OCS depending on what type of commissioning source is 10 to 12 weeks.  The Naval Academy stopped sending students to OCS in the early 90's after high attrition rates.  It's sad when the "Hardest Military Academy in the World" cannot graduate 100% of its candidates from Marine Officer Candidate School.  So an easy solution is to just let them graduate in their blues.  That's why other officers and many of my Marines laugh at the Ring Things.   RS

I am USNA '89 and I believe that my class was the first to have the Bulldog experience.  IIRC it was waiverable for my class and made mandatory after that.

In any case, it is the Marine Corps that requires Bulldog, not the USNA.  What does it say about the quality of USNA grads that the Corps is willing to accept them whether or not they completeBulldog?  Sounds to me like it speaks pretty highly of them that the Corps is willing to do that.  BTW, the senior Marine in service didn't go to Bulldog and he seems to be doing OK.

Quoted: Quoted: ROTC is fine, OCS is fine.  The Academy is better.  The best officers I have known are Academy grads.  Sorry if that offends anyone - it is simply my observation.   Matt .  ROTC who chooses the Marine route must also attend OCS.  It's called bulldog and last six weeks.  OCS depending on what type of commissioning source is 10 to 12 weeks.  The Naval Academy stopped sending students to OCS in the early 90's after high attrition rates.  It's sad when the "Hardest Military Academy in the World" cannot graduate 100% of its candidates from Marine Officer Candidate School.

Thats how the MECEPs (Marine Enlisted Commisioning Program Marines) convinced me to stop thinking about a transfer.

And as to the hardest.... Our fourth class system goes to May. According to my best friend, who's a plebe at USCGA,  after "cadre" (early fall), midshipmen get away with the same amount of shining a Citadel upperclassman does.

My uncle was USNA class of '52 "Tough Shoes to Fill".  He always has great sotries to tell.  He was invited from the fleet by the Secretary of the Navy.  

artar

After all that shit you are still going, right unclemoak?  

When it's all said and done it's not where you went to get your education, it's how honorably you served your country and your shipmates.

Quoted: I was wonderng how many people on this board have graduated from the Naval Academy. Two weeks ago I got nominated by Congressman Shuster (PA-9) and am qualified by the Academy, just waiting to hear if I got in or not. What are your thoughts on the Academy?

If you're dead-set on a career as a Naval officer, and can appreciate the tradition - go for it. Otherwise, NROTC is always a good alternative. Get your college degree while the Navy pays for tuition and then get your Ensign commission upon graduation.

Quoted: If the mids didn't make it though the "bulldog" program, why are they making it through the TBS portion that covers the same thing?  I'm not buying the story.  How many Academy grads who go to buds attrite?  How many Academy grads who go through flight school attrite (for other than medical reasons)?  Exactly.  Fewer than their counterparts. Matt

The Basic School for individuals who are already commissioned as a 2ndLt.  If you fail any portion of The Basic School, you are recycled into the next class.  Yes people are recycled from all forms of commissioning.  It's only the class materials from OCS that are covered again.  The actual physical and mental process of becoming a Marine is what Naval Academy grads do not get to experience.  They wake up one morning and are wearing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor.  They did nothing but go to college to earn it.  The fact is Naval Academy grads are worse off when they get commissioned for not having endured Officer Candidate School.  OCS graduates have already proved they have an ability to lead men in the Marine Corps fashion.  That's what Marine OCS is all about.  Making Marines!  The Naval Academy doesn't make Marines.  It makes naval officers.  I think that is why a rift exists between the two.  I know midshipmen go to The Basic School during the summers to get the Marine experience.  After I graduated the basic school I helped with the midshipman's little camping trip before my MOS school.  It in know way makes them Marines.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ROTC is fine, OCS is fine.  The Academy is better.  The best officers I have known are Academy grads.  Sorry if that offends anyone - it is simply my observation.   Matt .  ROTC who chooses the Marine route must also attend OCS.  It's called bulldog and last six weeks.  OCS depending on what type of commissioning source is 10 to 12 weeks.  The Naval Academy stopped sending students to OCS in the early 90's after high attrition rates.  It's sad when the "Hardest Military Academy in the World" cannot graduate 100% of its candidates from Marine Officer Candidate School.   Thats how the MECEPs (Marine Enlisted Commisioning Program Marines) convinced me to stop thinking about a transfer. And as to the hardest.... Our fourth class system goes to May. According to my best friend, who's a plebe at USCGA,  after "cadre" (early fall), midshipmen get away with the same amount of shining a Citadel upperclassman does.

whether we like it or not, every one of us HAS to agree that our schools are going to shit compaired to the way they were. i guess that's what happens when the military becomes a social experiment.

Quoted: I am USNA '89 and I believe that my class was the first to have the Bulldog experience.  IIRC it was waiverable for my class and made mandatory after that. In any case, it is the Marine Corps that requires Bulldog, not the USNA.  What does it say about the quality of USNA grads that the Corps is willing to accept them whether or not they completeBulldog?  Sounds to me like it speaks pretty highly of them that the Corps is willing to do that.  BTW, the senior Marine in service didn't go to Bulldog and he seems to be doing OK.

Not trying to start a pissing contest.  Obviously I already did that but I'm going to have to disagree.  I think the Marine Corps accepted them because 15-20% of our officers come from the Naval Academy.  If a certain percentage failed OCS then the Marine Corps would not meet it's goal for officers that year.  

I know about the senior Marine.  He's a good dude but I still think Naval Academy grads would be better off attending Officer Candidate School.  

Quoted: The Basic School for individuals who are already commissioned as a 2ndLt.  If you fail any portion of The Basic School, you are recycled into the next class.  Yes people are recycled from all forms of commissioning.  It's only the class materials from OCS that are covered again. The actual physical and mental process of becoming a Marine is what Naval Academy grads do not get to experience.  They wake up one morning and are wearing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor.  They did nothing but go to college to earn it.

Bullshit.

All USNA Midshipmen who want to go Marine Corps must pass the Bulldog program given at USNA by the Marine Officers assigned to the Academy. If you don't pass that course, you cannot select USMC during Service Selection night.

The training is ANYTHING but "waking up one morning wearing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor".

The fact is Naval Academy grads are worse off when they get commissioned for not having endured Officer Candidate School.  OCS graduates have already proved they have an ability to lead men in the Marine Corps fashion.  That's what Marine OCS is all about.  Making Marines!  The Naval Academy doesn't make Marines.  It makes naval officers.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I think that is why a rift exists between the two.  I know midshipmen go to The Basic School during the summers to get the Marine experience.  After I graduated the basic school I helped with the midshipman's little camping trip before my MOS school.  It in know way makes them Marines.

It's not meant to. That's what the Basic School is for.

The rift exists because, as I said before, it's always easy to snipe at the guys on top when you're not up there with them. Sure, some may drop out, and others may pass and become complete assholes, but that doesn't mean that USNA is inferior to the 90-day-wonder programs you see out there.

Quoted: I think the Marine Corps accepted them because 15-20% of our officers come from the Naval Academy.  If a certain percentage failed OCS then the Marine Corps would not meet it's goal for officers that year.

Oh, I see. You're saying the Corps will sacrifice standards in order to achieve a quota.

So much for their being the elite force they claim to be...

Quoted: If you're dead-set on a career as a Naval officer, and can appreciate the tradition - go for it. Otherwise, NROTC is always a good alternative. Get your college degree while the Navy pays for tuition and then get your Ensign commission upon graduation.

I'm not dead set on being a Naval officer, I want to go the Marine route, my grandfather was in the Marines during WWII in the South Pacific somewhere, so I want to carry on the tradition and kick some ass while doing it. My parents don't really like the idea of me enlisting, because I'm "smarter than that". They don't want me not to go to school and I have big footsteps to follow in, My one brother, is in Med school and the other graduated college in three years and plans to go to law school. As much as my parents don't like the idea of me enlisting, I told them if i don't get accepted and they don't let me in after doing the whole crazy ass stand at the gates of the academy on induction day till the let me in, that I'm enlisting.

Uncle,

Look, dude... If you want to be a USMC officer, USNA is a fantastic way to go. If you have concerns about how good a leader you're going to be, then a) I admire your maturity, and b) I suggest that you take advantage of every opportunity to make YOURSELF a great leader.

USNA provides all kinds of opportunities beyond the curriculum for aspiring Marines to take advantage of. There's Bulldog (mandatory), the Semper Fi Society, and of course the USMC officers in the Yard.

You will never regret going to USNA, but you MIGHT regret NOT having gone. Every person is different. In my case, I regret not having studied harder, and perhaps even NOT having chosen USMC, but I have NEVER seriously regretted having gone to USNA, and I've been out of uniform for ten years.

Best of luck. I admire your desire to be the best. Go get 'em!

Quoted: All USNA Midshipmen who want to go Marine Corps must pass the Bulldog program given at USNA by the Marine Officers assigned to the Academy. If you don't pass that course, you cannot select USMC during Service Selection night. The training is ANYTHING but "waking up one morning wearing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor". That's the problem.  OCS is given by by senior SNCO's who have prior tours on the drill field.  There is no way in hell they are the same.   The fact is Naval Academy grads are worse off when they get commissioned for not having endured Officer Candidate School.  OCS graduates have already proved they have an ability to lead men in the Marine Corps fashion.  That's what Marine OCS is all about.  Making Marines!  The Naval Academy doesn't make Marines.  It makes naval officers. You have no idea what you're talking about. Your right I'm a complete idiot!

Quoted: Quoted: I think the Marine Corps accepted them because 15-20% of our officers come from the Naval Academy.  If a certain percentage failed OCS then the Marine Corps would not meet it's goal for officers that year.   Oh, I see. You're saying the Corps will sacrifice standards in order to achieve a quota. So much for their being the elite force they claim to be...

Every force will sacrifice standards to fill the ranks.   You should know that.  

I will come at this from a different perspective than some of the other academy guys...

first, some background, I went to West Point, although West Point doesnt particularly acknowledge me...for those in the know, I shattered my leg during the summer between my cow and firstie year...after many surgeries at Killer Army Hospital, they couldnt put humpty together again and I was medically discharged with a 30% disability Christmas my Firstie year...this created a bit of bitterness in me (they even took BACK my ring)...it was damn hard to make it to one semester to go and be shoved out the door...

Now, though, 10 years later, I can look back on it objectively and realize that attending the academy gave me skills and abilities that have served me since...they gave me a sense of pride in myself, and respect for others I often found lacking from typical civvies...I am a successful father, husband, and American because of my time at West Point...

Go and do your best, listen to everyone...remember you will often learn more from the bad leaders than you do from the good...and there will be bad leaders...your goal is to become an amalgamation of all they werent and all the good you have seen...

God does things for a reason, during my rehab time after my discharge I started to date my wife...8 years of marriage later I have two beautiful, wonderful sons (one just 8 days old)...take everything the academies can give...

Oh, also, I spent some time down at Annapolis...beautiful place...had my eyebrows shaved by some plebes when I got lost in Bancroft Hall (hardy har har, lets get the Woop)...the rivalry between the two is based on the utmost respect for each other  BUT

I laugh my ass off everytime that movie preview about "the hardest military academy" comes on....

whatever...

Quoted: Every force will sacrifice standards to fill the ranks.   You should know that.

Not elite ones. Not REALLY elite ones.

SEALs don't. You pass BUDS as-is or you don't go.

I imagine outfits like Airborne, Rangers, etc. do the same thing.

Considering the amount of crap the Corps puts out about being The Few, The Proud, etc., then I damned well expect them to hold those standards. If they don't, then they are hypocrites.



Concerning your other point, is USMC Officers are not qualified to train candidates to be Officers, then they bloody well aren't qualified to lead men in battle, are they? I will agree whole-heartedly with you that more involvement with SNCO's is always a GOOD thing, but because one is taught by SNCO's doesn't make it better than one that's taught by officers who (since not all are from USNA) have been trainined by SNCO's.

Quoted: first, some background, I went to West Point, although West Point doesnt particularly acknowledge me...for those in the know, I shattered my leg during the summer between my cow and firstie year...after many surgeries at Killer Army Hospital, they couldnt put humpty together again and I was medically discharged with a 30% disability Christmas my Firstie year...this created a bit of bitterness in me (they even took BACK my ring)...it was damn hard to make it to one semester to go and be shoved out the door...

Sweet mother of God! That FUCKING SUCKS!

Oh, also, I spent some time down at Annapolis...beautiful place...had my eyebrows shaved by some plebes when I got lost in Bancroft Hall (hardy har har, lets get the Woop)

...the rivalry between the two is based on the utmost respect for each other

AMEN!

BUT I laugh my ass off everytime that movie preview about "the hardest military academy" comes on.... whatever...

You laugh. I puke.

Quoted: Quoted: Every force will sacrifice standards to fill the ranks.   You should know that.   Not elite ones. Not REALLY elite ones. SEALs don't. You pass BUDS as-is or you don't go. I imagine outfits like Airborne, Rangers, etc. do the same thing. Considering the amount of crap the Corps puts out about being The Few, The Proud, etc., then I damned well expect them to hold those standards. If they don't, then they are hypocrites.

I'm not even going to respond to you on this.  I respected the majority of what you said as an opinion.  Now you have turned a corner and joined the ranks of of Valheru.  

Concerning your other point, is USMC Officers are not qualified to train candidates to be Officers, then they bloody well aren't qualified to lead men in battle, are they? I will agree whole-heartedly with you that more involvement with SNCO's is always a GOOD thing, but because one is taught by SNCO's doesn't make it better than one that's taught by officers who (since not all are from USNA) have been trainined by SNCO's.

I never said USMC Officers are not qualified to train candidates.  Each platoon is commanded by a Captain and three drill instructors.  It's better to have both.  

eta:  It's been fun having this great conversation.  Obviously it's going nowhere.  So I'm outta here.  Zaphod and Valheru, be safe in your travels and thanks for your service.  Semper Fi

Quoted: Now you have turned a corner and joined the ranks of of Valheru.

Huh?

And what ranks are those? The ranks of those who dare to have a different opinion?

Is what I'm saying factually innacurate? If so, then please correct me. If not, then understand that I am giving my opinion based upon what I know and what I've learned about leadership and the various officer ascention programs.

I've never said USNA is perfect, or even that it's the best in everything. It is, however, the best IN GENERAL. Is there room for improvement? HELL YES. There always is.

However, I'm not going to stand by and let a bunch of nonsense be spoken about my alma mater without responding to it. If that puts me in a rank you don't like, so sorry, but I'll stand tall in that rank.

I never said USMC Officers are not qualified to train candidates.  Each platoon is commanded by a Captain and three drill instructors.  It's better to have both.

Absolutely. No doubt.

We now have both at USNA. In 1992 or 1993, USNA created billets for numerous SNCO's and CPO's so that the Midshipmen could get direct exposure to the people they would be leading. IMO, that was one of the most brilliant things ever done at USNA, and I think it should be expanded.

Way back in the day, far too many grads went into the fleet thinking they could treat their men like Plebes. BIG mistake. In fact, it's one of the reasons I'm not entirely sure that the whole Plebe Year thing is a good thing. I think it certainly developes the ability to keep going under adversity, but it also teaches those above (who are running the Plebes) some bad habits.

I'd much rather see a Plebe Year or Summer that looks like BUDS and run by enlisted personnel than what we have now.

That, however, is a subject for another thread....

Quoted: Quoted: If the mids didn't make it though the "bulldog" program, why are they making it through the TBS portion that covers the same thing?  I'm not buying the story.  How many Academy grads who go to buds attrite?  How many Academy grads who go through flight school attrite (for other than medical reasons)?  Exactly.  Fewer than their counterparts. Matt The Basic School for individuals who are already commissioned as a 2ndLt.  If you fail any portion of The Basic School, you are recycled into the next class.  Yes people are recycled from all forms of commissioning.  It's only the class materials from OCS that are covered again.  The actual physical and mental process of becoming a Marine is what Naval Academy grads do not get to experience.

Ok, reread what you just wrote.  Let the absurdity of your statement sink in... now apologize to all of us who spent 4 years in uniform before you spent your six weeks at an OCS class.  Six weeks do not make a marine.  

They wake up one morning and are wearing the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor.

one morning after 1200ish mornings in uniform, marching, PTing, learning about the Marines and Navy, etc.

They did nothing but go to college to earn it.

This is the kind of animosity I am talking about that always comes from the OCS people.  You pretend to know about the academy and then make a fool of yourself because you are not keeping this in a good spirit.

The fact is Naval Academy grads are worse off when they get commissioned for not having endured Officer Candidate School.

again, reread your statement and then apologize.  I can't believe you believe this.

OCS graduates have already proved they have an ability to lead men in the Marine Corps fashion.  That's what Marine OCS is all about.

Really?!?  That's what our second (junior) and first (senior) class years are all about.  

Making Marines!

Apparently, they failed in your case.  Most marines I know are quite professional.  

The Naval Academy doesn't make Marines.  It makes naval officers.  I think that is why a rift exists between the two.  I know midshipmen go to The Basic School during the summers to get the Marine experience.  After I graduated the basic school I helped with the midshipman's little camping trip before my MOS school.  It in know way makes them Marines.

I give.  You smoked too much weed in your college days.  
Matt

I was accepted to both USNA and USMA.  I chose USMA and am glad I did.  I have a lot of respect for USNA and the rivaly between Army and Navy is intense yet respectful.

Many have posted that an academy is the way to go if you're interested in a career in the military - I agree, but also have a different slant on things.

After 3 knee operations, a 20% disability, and seeing the heavy Armor forces cut in half in the mid 1990s, I got out.

The USMA degree looks great on a resume.  The academic reputation is considerable as well.  I got into a top 3 business school despite below average GPA and GMAT scores (2.8, 640).  The reputation of USMA and the management and leadership experience I had from active duty tipped the scales in my favor.  Had I gone the ROTC route at a civilian university, I think things would have turned out differently.  I pay more in taxes than a 4 star general or admiral makes, but YMMV If you are offered admission to USNA, jump all over it.

Okay, time to play Mr. Reasonable, again...

Quoted: Ok, reread what you just wrote.  Let the absurdity of your statement sink in... now apologize to all of us who spent 4 years in uniform before you spent your six weeks at an OCS class.  Six weeks do not make a marine.

Neither do our four years, and you know it. How many of our fellow Ringknockers have come out as complete assholes? More than I can count, unfortunately.

What makes a Marine or Naval Officer is the recognition that his job is not to give orders. His job is to LEAD his men. That means looking after them, ensuring they have the training and resources they need, and defending them against the idiocy of the chain of command and the beauracracy.

Those lessons can be learned at USNA or not. I will admit that six weeks is, IMO, probably not long enough, but that's just me, and the OCS I'm familiar with is the one I saw in Newport, RI, which didn't impress me. Perhaps the USMC one is a bit different, and I'll leave that possibility open.

Apparently, they failed in your case.  Most marines I know are quite professional.

Now, now. I've run across more asshole Marine officers in my life than I care to remember. FAR too many. In fact, they turned me off to USMC. There are creeps everywhere, but a strong opinion on one subject hardly classifies them as such on its own. I've received an IM from RS0802 (HEY JARHEAD! I CAN'T REPLY IF YOU DON'T LET ME! ), and he sounds a lot like us: knowledgeable, yet passionate and opinionated. Do we want shrinking violets leading Marines OR sailors?



Unless it has changed, (and IIRC), all USNA mids who wish to go to USMC are required to pass a Bulldog course at USNA. I remember that course being several weeks long and quite intensive. I also remember the USMC officers assigned to the Yard, as well as the token SNCO's that existed THEN, being directly involved. It was no cakewalk.

Perhaps that program was begun in response to what RS has been claiming. Hell, USNA started two programs, pre-mini-BUDS and mini-BUDS, in order to help mids get through the real thing. IIRC you have to complete THOSE before you an select SEAL.

Either way, the program you attend may have something to do with the way you turn out, but it's still up to the individual to learn what it means to be a leader of men under arms. It is also a process that never really ends.

Quoted: If you are offered admission to USNA, jump all over it.

Hell, if you get offered admission to ANY service academy, jump all over it.

Just understand that if you pick USMA, though, you'll have to wipe it off your shoes before your mom let's you back into the house.

Quoted: I would have had a rifle out the window of Ike Barracks during a parade they pulled some shit like that.

"The weapons are secure, sir...!

The Citadel...despite the unpleasantness of '96, still a pretty good place.

Too late to jump into this one...I'll watch from afar.

Quoted: The Citadel

<snicker, snicker......>

Funny...we have the same reaction to Sodom-on-the-Severn.

Quoted: Funny...we have the same reaction to Sodom-on-the-Severn.

Never heard that one before!

...and I never tried to get into USNA...or USMA, USCGA, USAFA, or USMMA, for that matter.

ROTC scholarships are a beautiful thing.

Quoted: Okay, time to play Mr. Reasonable, again... Quoted: Ok, reread what you just wrote.  Let the absurdity of your statement sink in... now apologize to all of us who spent 4 years in uniform before you spent your six weeks at an OCS class.  Six weeks do not make a marine.   Neither do our four years, and you know it. How many of our fellow Ringknockers have come out as complete assholes? More than I can count, unfortunately.

I never said that our four years did - though, I conceed the inadvertant implication.  That isn't quite what I meant.  

Those lessons can be learned at USNA or not. I will admit that six weeks is, IMO, probably not long enough, but that's just me, and the OCS I'm familiar with is the one I saw in Newport, RI, which didn't impress me. Perhaps the USMC one is a bit different, and I'll leave that possibility open.

That's what I was getting at.

Apparently, they failed in your case.  Most marines I know are quite professional.

Now, now. I've run across more asshole Marine officers in my life than I care to remember. FAR too many. In fact, they turned me off to USMC.

The ones I've mostly met are aviators, so, perhaps I didn't get the real experience.

Unless it has changed, (and IIRC), all USNA mids who wish to go to USMC are required to pass a Bulldog course at USNA. I remember that course being several weeks long and quite intensive. I also remember the USMC officers assigned to the Yard, as well as the token SNCO's that existed THEN, being directly involved. It was no cakewalk.

I think the course is now called leatherneck - I could be wrong.  I was pretty much die-hard aviation when I was there.
Matt

I'll throw a little gas on this fire.  When I got appointed and accepted to USNA '00, my brother was already in the fleet (OCS, pilot) and provided a little guidance.  Needless to say, I did not attend the USNA and I've never regretted it.  I enjoyed every minute of college and excelled academically.   However, at the end of my junior year, I decided that I still wanted to pursue a career in the Navy.  I talked to an officer recruiter, got accepted to be a sub-nuc after an interview in DC, and instantly had my student loans paid off.  For the next 18 months I was paid as an E-6 (but still no uniforms).  When I graduated from college, I flew down to Pensacola, got commissioned and entered Nuclear Power School about 5 months behind my USNA peers.  

I've since finished the nuclear pipeline, completed my JO sea tour (fast attack, 2 deployments) and transferred to shore.  In that time, I have worked with a mix of the finest people on the planet and some of the biggest shitbags America has to offer.  No commissioning source is free of turds, but the Naval Academy certainly stands out.  At Power School, when the OCS grads still had tight haircuts and polished shoes, the USNA grads looked like a bunch of burned-out Elvis impersonators.  Although many were at the top academically, it was almost a sure thing that a few were bringing up the rear as well.  They were rude to the instructors and despised by many of the senior enlisted.  Once we got to our boats, the USNA grads continued to standout as immature, lacking in tact, and even dangerously arrogant.  

Granted, this is just a narrow sample and entirely unscientific.  Take it for what it's worth.  But consider the thousands of quality OCS-commissioned officers out in the fleet.  They pick up where the USNA left off after only 13 weeks!  While the academy guys are going through hell for 4 years, you can be independent, free of obligation, and, hopefully, happy.  If you still want to enter the armed forces, you will have no problem (especially if you pursue an engineering or hard science degree) and you will bring a wealth of experiences the USNA grads could only dream about.  Those middy cruises (spent rack stowed or stuffing your face) do not matter one bit once you get to the fleet, but the fact that you know how to manage your finances, pay your bills on time, and work cohesively with people from a variety of backgrounds does.  Finally, if you decide not to get commissioned, you will never be happier that you didn't go to the Academy.