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Posted: 8/10/2001 10:14:18 AM EDT
[#1]
This doesnt look good:
Jerrold Kessel: Taking Orient House 'remarkable turning point' August 10, 2001 Posted: 12:43 PM EDT (1643 GMT) Jerrold Kessel reporting from Jerusalem CNN Correspondent Jerrold Kessel is in Jerusalem following the devastating events there. He says the Israeli government's response to Thursday's suicide bombing marks a dramatic turn in relations between Israelis and Palestinians. Q. Was the Israeli government's decision to seize Orient House, the unofficial Palestine Liberation Organization headquarters in Jerusalem, a significant act? KESSEL: Yes. It is a remarkable turning point. For the last 11 months, the Al Aqsa Intifada has been punctuated by dramatic shifts. We have just seen a double-barreled shift. A suicide bomber managed to get through Israeli security, to strike and get through in such a devastating way that in the heart of Jerusalem 15 people, many of them children, are killed. In response there was some military action, but the really dramatic and potentially explosive action taken by Israel was the political action -- the seizing of Orient House. The assault by the military coupled with the political action almost stops any chance of ending the violence or resuming negotiations. It is no accident that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon made this strategic political move. The right wing in Israeli politics has clamored for the government to shut down Orient House for years, but no Israeli prime minister ever did it because of the symbolic importance of that building to Palestinian aspirations. For the Palestinians, Orient House was a touchstone. It said there is a Palestinian presence in Jerusalem, which they believe is their right. It said we are here and one day Jerusalem will be the capital of our independent state. By taking Orient House, by flying the Israeli flag over it, Sharon is saying for the moment, even if we talk we don't talk about this. Q. If the taking of Orient House represents a shift in Israeli policy, what is Sharon's new policy toward the Palestinians? KESSEL: The Israelis have contended Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat has given terrorist groups the green light to launch attacks. They accuse him of supporting terrorism to make political gains. Dore Gold, one of Sharon's closest advisers, has said that if Arafat continues to support terrorism, not only will Israel prevent the Palestinians from making any new political gains, it also will roll back the political gains the Palestinians have already won. He said this morning: "If the Palestinian Authority continues to support violence, it is important that Israel and the international community make it clear they cannot advance their political agenda, their political goals. Violence will bring about a reversal of Palestinian goals, not an advance." The one American who has died so far from the bombing was buried today in Israel. [url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010810/ts/mideast_funeral_american_dc_1.html[/url] [url]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20010810/capt.israel_bombing_victim_caef104.jpg[/url] Judith Shoshanna Greenbaum of Passaic, NJ. Age 31, a schoolteacher 4 months pregnant with her first child. She was the person standing right in front of the bomber in line at the Sbarros. |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 10:15:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Q. In recent days, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres has been saying that Israel ought to make new attempts to open talks with Arafat. This new policy seems to be the opposite of that. KESSEL: Exactly -- that is the other thing that is so dramatic about this decision -- it cuts off a number of political options. Peres was saying the policy of restraint and targeted attacks wasn't working. He wanted to open a new dialogue with Arafat. If Peres were to go to Arafat today and say let's talk, Arafat would say, "Why? You have shut the door." The Palestinians are stunned. Under the Oslo accords, which the Israelis signed, Orient House was allowed to operate. Last year, under Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the Israeli Knesset voted to allow the Palestinians to control Abu Dis, the neighborhood where Israeli troops occupied the governor's house last night. Peres fought Sharon over this decision and lost. At first Sharon called his so-called "kitchen cabinet" together, but he couldn't get the votes for his new policy. That's why late in the day, he called a meeting of his security cabinet. Sharon's support is much stronger there and that's how they got the 9-3 vote with one abstention. Q. What will the response be from Arafat and the Palestinians? KESSEL: That's very difficult to say. The Israelis say they want him to crack down on terrorism. The United States wants him to honor the U.S.-brokered cease-fire agreement. This decision by Sharon really puts Arafat in a bind. After the Israeli attack on Nablus, where two Hamas leaders were killed, members of Arafat's Fatah movement said Fatah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad should work in a unified way. There has even been talk of a unity government. Many of Arafat's key aides oppose that because they believe Hamas would end up in control. But the Israeli actions may push him in that direction. The Israelis argue that unity is already there. They contend Arafat is the strategist and Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the ones who execute his plans. We don't know what is right, but one thing is certain: If it was difficult for Arafat to move against the militants before, it is much more difficult for him now. Arafat was going to have a meeting to talk about greater unity. It is likely he will move to put a unified Palestinian face on things. In Israel, the public is about three to one in favor of punishing the Palistinians- not talking with them. They overwhelmingly feel that the Oslo Accord was a sham, that Palistinians never inteneded to impliment. And they arent in a mood to listen to us, because we brokered that accord, and put all sorts of pressure on them to hold to it as the Intifada grew, in their eyes we helped the Palistinians conduct this bombing. You know, we have been doing the same thing to Iraq that Isreal has been doing to the Palistinaians for the last 10years. How would we react if a Iraqi succeded in pulling someting like this in New York or Washington DC? |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 11:58:22 AM EDT
[#3]
Stop all foreign aid NOW. It will either force both sides to negotiate or will cause one side to destroy the other.
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Posted: 8/10/2001 12:18:30 PM EDT
[#4]
[img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010810/mdf35201.jpg[/img]
The Shigueschuurder family. Both parents were killed, also the girl in the middle holding the baby, the baby, and the little boy. The other two girls are in serious conditon, mutilated by nails from the bomb. They are from the Netherlands, and were visiting the Holy Land as tourists. |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 12:51:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Do you get a special travel discount for touring war zones?
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Posted: 8/10/2001 2:06:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Thank you ArmdLbrl, we sometimes forget that the Palestinians are not the only ones who are losing children in this undeclared war.
[size=4]Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.[/size=4] Eric The(They'reJustTheOnesWithTheGoodPress)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 2:46:25 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Thank you ArmdLbrl, we sometimes forget that the Palestinians are not the only ones who are losing children in this undeclared war. [size=4]Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.[/size=4] Eric The(They'reJustTheOnesWithTheGoodPress)Hun[>]:)] Well someone has to make up for all the A$$HOLES here who dont care who or what gets killed, so long as its no one THEY know personally and their gas prices dont go up[;D] Sorry to be a nitpick, but this is a declared war- 40 years ago when the PLO was formed they clearly stated that their mission was the "destruction of the Jewish State in Palestine". That is pretty much a declaration of war... mutual declarations arent required for war. My greatest concern is that this doesn't start the nation of Israel down the slippery slope to comitting Genocide themselves- dragging us down along with them. From what I have seen on the news web sites-BBC, CNN, Reuters, AP ect- the Israelies are as a nation angrier than they have been for yearsss- you have to go back before the Lebanon invasion, perhaps as far as the 73' War to find the public mood so overwhelmingly for violence against the Arabs. They weren't this mad when Scuds were falling on them. And as their Parlimentary style government is even more sensitive to public mood than ours is, that is a bad sign. |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 4:41:38 PM EDT
[#8]
You are so right, we certainly can't let doing what's right get in the way of reasonable gas prices here in the States.
We sure have come a long way from Kennedy's Inaugural Address in which he said that... Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty. Who stands for liberty in the Middle East? The despotic satraps of Arabia, or the polyglot of citizens fretfully clinging to the small plot of land known as Israel? Israeli Arabs are permitted to vote in Israeli elections, where they sometimes tip the scales in favor of the Labor Party against the Likud. That is certainly how it should be. Are any Arabs anywhere permitted to vote for any office of any consequence in any Arab nation? I don't believe so, and that is certainly [b]not[/b] how it should be. Eric The(Ordinarily,IDon'tQuoteKennedy)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 5:18:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Yep, the closest would be Egypt. But Hosne Mubarik has been president there for 21 years now. Anwar Sadat was either president or prime minister for 20 years before that. Do you think that that is possible with truely free and fair democratic elections? The others dont even make a pretext, they all want to be the next Ottoman emperor.
Actually IRAN runs a pretty good republic- if you are a Islamic male that is. If you are a woman or any other faith forget it. |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 5:34:09 PM EDT
[#10]
The Iranians are not, and do not consider themselves, Arabs, they are Persians. This is an extemely important distinction in their eyes.
IIRC, I believe that under the Shah Pahlavi, particularly in his 'White Revolution of 1962-63, women were permitted the right to vote in national and local elections. The right of males to vote was not denied on account of any religious affiliation. Too bad we got an Islamic (so-called) Republic now! OK Ladies, put the veils back on! Eric The(Pro-Shah-Am-I-A-Reactionary-Or-What?)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 5:46:02 PM EDT
[#11]
Well, on the other hand there was the Shahs secret police... ahh, oriental destpotism.
Have you noticed that it has been some hours since someone other than the two of us has posted on this thread? Talk about apathy[:(!] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:04:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Ah yes, the dreaded [i][b]Savak[/b][/i]! They who killed hundreds of political prisoners, only to be outdone by the tens of thousands of Iranian 'counter-revolutionaries' (meaning shop owners, college students, Bahai, Jews, people who were the subject of grudges held by the Mullahs) killed by the Ayotollah Khomeini, and his henchmen.
And yes, I've noticed that we're pretty much preaching to the choir on this one. My bad, as they say. Eric The(ButIHonestlyDon'tHaveAClueAsToWhat'MyBad'EvenMeans)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:05:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: This religious conflict has been going on for a few thousand years. These religions are basically from the same tree but different branches. Indescriminate killing of non-combatants achieves no purpose except to create more animosity. I wish I had a solution. One solution, inject a peice of lead into AirFAT's brain, teach those Palestineans that Islam is (much) more than just dying in a battlefield or to blow oneself up, get them to take up arms and fight only those who fight them, not kill the noncombatants. Reason I dont like AirFAT is because he lives like Bill gates while his people suffer, negioates with the enemy who probably doesnt take peace treaties seriously anyways, then gives in to his enemy for "political gain" at the expense of the Palestinean people and pretty much the rest of the Muslim world too... As for suicide bombers, it is wrong in Islam to kill noncombatants, unless of course they are fighting you, like as in self defense. Some of these guys they just get so upset with oppression and their mom/sister/father/whatever being raped and killed or homes destoryed that they would use Islam to justify doing these kind of things. They should read the Quran with an unbiased mind however these guys read the Quran with an opinion already and they use the Quran to justify it... Kinda like how the antigunners reads the Constitution to justify gun banning, by saying that the Constitution doesnt allow people to bear arm, it only allows the national guard! |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:09:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Oh come on people. The isralies are well known for their creative use of torture.
That alones causes them to lose favor in my eyes. Oh, and the simple fact that they have zero oil to sell me is another strike against them. Who gives a rats ass about any of them? It is what they can *do* for us that matters. Israel doesn't do much for us. BTW, either one of you chuckleheads remember the USS Liberty? (Lets see the apologists come out for this one...) |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:17:54 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: Quoted: Where is the honor in killing. Go ask a Muslim, he'll tell ya. Im a Muslim, and the "honor" in these killing is because they believe that by dying in the Cause of Allah they go to paradise. However the verse that mentioned to die for the sake of Allah also says not to transgress boundaries, for Allah does not love those who transgress. Read Quran 2:190-193. To save bandwidth I wont post it here. you can read the verse yourself here http://islam.org/mosque/quran/2.htm#190 I must point out that "Jihad" does not translate to Holy War, it means struggle, since if you talk to many Islamic scholors they will say Jihad is more than just fighting in the battlefield, its also struggling in your mind to stay away from sin. Im sorry if I offended anyone with religious content but I feel that I must shed some light on this issue. |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:21:01 PM EDT
[#16]
Post from rahimiv -
They should read the Quran with an unbiased mind however these guys read the Quran with an opinion already and they use the Quran to justify it... I once heard this said about the conflict in Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics, but it works just as well in the Middle East conflict - [size=4]They have just enough religion to make them hate each other, But not enough religion to make them love each other![/size=4] Eric The(Devout)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:32:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Dude, I take back what I said about apathy... I leave to go eat dinner, come back and Wow!
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Posted: 8/10/2001 6:48:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Post from rahimiv -
Im sorry if I offended anyone with religious content but I feel that I must shed some light on this issue. I appreciate your post because it sheds light on the issue! Thank you so much for giving me the Islamic view of this conflict. You should never worry about offending anyone on this Board, because they will never worry about offending you, or me, or anyone else! Stay here and give us your thoughts on ANY subject. I will always listen to what you say with an open mind! Eric The(OpenMinded)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 8/10/2001 8:25:28 PM EDT
[#19]
The Jews were the original terrorists. Irgun Lehi, ring a bell? They were the first ones to use a bombing campaign. Mostly against the British Police officers and soilders.
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Posted: 8/11/2001 4:03:07 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Oh come on people. The isralies are well known for their creative use of torture. That alones causes them to lose favor in my eyes. What do you think the Arabs did to the Israeli soldiers they captured - put them up in a hotel room and send up all the food, alcohol, and women they could handle? Oh, and the simple fact that they have zero oil to sell me is another strike against them. If fuel prices are so important to you, buy something more economical and you'll get more for your money. If you'd rather keep using fuel the way you are now, then compensate by cutting costs somewhere else. Your monthly ISP fees would be a good place to start. Who gives a rats ass about any of them? It is what they can *do* for us that matters. Israel doesn't do much for us. What do the Arabs do for us? Selling us oil doesn't count, because they're not doing that for [b]us[/b], they're doing it for themselves. If Israel hadn't agreed not to retaliate after Hussein started SCUDding Israeli cities during the Gulf War, the Coalition would have dissolved - as Hussein hoped it would - we might well have been fighting the entire Arab world. Getting Israel involved would have given them (the Arabs) a common cause, after all. In other words, Israel let its citizens be killed without striking back at the killer, just because we asked them to. BTW, either one of you chuckleheads remember the USS Liberty (Lets see the apologists come out for this one...) When you spy on someone - either ally or enemy - during wartime, you take a big chance. The Liberty was spying on the Israelis, and what they did was well within their rights. After all, spies ARE executed during wartime. Why should the Israelis have to accept our spying on them as something they have no control over, but when we capture one of THEIR spies it leads to national outrage. |
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Posted: 8/11/2001 9:51:22 AM EDT
[#21]
Also, the US Government wasnt supporting Israel in 1967. We came in AFTER the Six Day War, after Britain and France abandoned Isreal for its "agression" in attacking the Arabs 24hours before the Arab states were going to attack them.
Of course Isreal's biggest source of funding in those years was still American Jews. But that isnt the same as the US Government. The "51st state" relationship we have come to know was largely a product of the Nixon Administration. |
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