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Posted: 1/27/2006 5:11:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:12:19 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Our federal deficit is the largest in the world - $ 8,191,856,566,874


Our Trade imbalance is projected to reach $337,000,000,000 this year


According to the CIA, we represent 70% of the World's debt:

Rank Country Debt - external

Date of Information 30 June 2005 est.

1 World $ 12,700,000,000,000 2004 est.

2 United States $ 8,837,000,000,000

3 United Kingdom $ 7,107,000,000,000

America has become more debt-dependent - - than ever before with total debt of $40 trillion, or $136,479 per man, woman and child



How long can the party last? Don't know - but at some point, the United States is bankrupt if we can't change course.


IF we do go insolvent, does the World have a Right to foreclose? What would that entail? Seizing US assets? Sending in troops to repo our country?


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:13:44 AM EDT
It would entail a massive economic collapse of the entire world economy right now.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:13:55 AM EDT
If the rest of the world called in our notes, we would be screwed. Short of threatening to nuke the rest of the planet, we would cease to exist. Japan, China, and most of Europe would own us.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:14:45 AM EDT
yeah sure, take your best shot!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:16:37 AM EDT
We are the world's biggest consumers. Might be a bad idea to bankrupt your customers.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:17:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
If the rest of the world called in our notes, we would be screwed. Short of threatening to nuke the rest of the planet, we would cease to exist. Japan, China, and most of Europe would own us.



and now who would buy the goods/services that those countries produce?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:19:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:20:59 AM EDT by callgood]
Yeah, but look at the Brits, per capita. I'll have my portion of the US debt paid off 234 years before Vito will his.

UH, how come the sum of the US and Brits is more than the world total?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:32:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By callgood:
Yeah, but look at the Brits, per capita. I'll have my portion of the US debt paid off 234 years before Vito will his.

UH, how come the sum of the US and Brits is more than the world total?

Da vig man da vig!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:32:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
It would entail a massive economic collapse of the entire world economy right now.




Timing wouldn't matter. That has been true for the last 50 years and will be true from now until the forseeable(sp?) future.


No, fuck no, they can't foreclose on us.

If times got that bad. We will go take by force what we needed (natural resources like oil) and rebuild our economy. We would elect a strong leader, plunge the World into war, blame someone else, and be top dog again.

That would be my vote anyway.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:33:41 AM EDT


Don't worry -- If they did that, they'd have to take their hands out of our pockets first.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:39:00 AM EDT
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:43:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



No shit

rj
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:45:19 AM EDT
Maybe we can get Bono to stump for us. Please, they are so broke, please forgive their debt....


not holding my breath.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:45:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



Considering that for every person we helped, we kicked someones ass to give that helping hand, I would think there are a lot that would like to see us fall. ( Germans, Soviets, Japanese, Korea...and various shit holes around the world)

That is why I support our military and want to be able to kick the fuck out of everybody else combined.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:46:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



+1 and we should own France and Germany by now
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:47:58 AM EDT
A foreclosure requires a sheriff. We are the sheriff.

Also, all of our debts are in dollars. We can always print more money to pay those debts (at the cost of some inflation). It is like lending money to Hasbro, and allowing Hasbro to pay you back in Monopoly money.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:48:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 5:48:26 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
It would entail a massive economic collapse of the entire world economy right now.




Timing wouldn't matter. That has been true for the last 50 years and will be true from now until the forseeable(sp?) future.


No, fuck no, they can't foreclose on us.

If times got that bad. We will go take by force what we needed (natural resources like oil) and rebuild our economy. We would elect a strong leader, plunge the World into war, blame someone else, and be top dog again.

That would be my vote anyway.




America - FUCK YEAH!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:48:14 AM EDT
We can inflate our way out of debt anytime we want. The government could simply issue $4 trillion and pay off the debt, and it would be completely, 100% legal. All we really have to do is stop the debt from growing, and the normal inflation (2-3% per year historically) will make it go away eventually.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:49:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



AMEN, brother!

PREACH IT!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:49:26 AM EDT
Our debt still only represents less than 1/3 of our GNP.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:51:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



+1 and we should own France and Germany by now



Only if we can make France a trailer park!
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:51:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:

That is why I support our military and want to be able to kick the fuck out of everybody else combined.



Well, amongst other reasons.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:53:56 AM EDT
How about we start by recalling the aid our GOVERNMENT gives to Africa for AIDS research and medicine. The money our government gave for the tsunami.

Maybe we could tell Japan, Germany and Vietnam that any old war debts are null and void.

We could tell Mexico, and all the 3rd world Latin American countries that we are going to live up to our aid packages etc....

Maybe when we reel in all our extensions, that we have given the world, or financial picture might look a little better, huh?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:57:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:

Originally Posted By krpind:

That is why I support our military and want to be able to kick the fuck out of everybody else combined.



Well, amongst other reasons.



Snipping that takes it out of context.

Context was that some countries don't like us, no matter how much we have helped them.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:00:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

How long can the party last? Don't know - but at some point, the United States is bankrupt if we can't change course.


IF we do go insolvent, does the World have a Right to foreclose? What would that entail? Seizing US assets? Sending in troops to repo our country?





The party isn't going to last too much longer. Once countries start ditching the dollar for other currency we are screwed.

With all the outsourcing and losing of decent jobs I give it 5 years or less until we are in a world of hurt.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:09:26 AM EDT

Our Trade imbalance is projected to reach $337,000,000,000 this year


According to the CIA, we represent 70% of the World's debt



There is your answer. If the US goes under, what will the rest of the world do with all the extra stuff? That would be $337 Billion in surplus goods with no buyers. Global economic meltdown... total chaos... dogs and cats living together in harmony...
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:11:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:13:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 6:14:40 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:18:20 AM EDT
Yeah, but how much does the world owe us. There are plenty of countries who also owe us a hell of a lot of money, which we let pass year after year.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:23:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
A foreclosure requires a sheriff. We are the sheriff.

Also, all of our debts are in dollars. We can always print more money to pay those debts (at the cost of some inflation). It is like lending money to Hasbro, and allowing Hasbro to pay you back in Monopoly money.



+1
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:25:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 6:27:09 AM EDT by krpind]

Originally Posted By lordtrader:
You guys are funny.

You guy even know what is the make up of the trade deficit??? Or what makes up the Federal Deficit???


Read up on it......

You know when you start your on personal budget.
Let's say you budget $10 a day for lunch or $50 a week.
One day, you spent $12 or for that week you spent $52
You are now running $2 deficit on your budget. So you need to curve your spending next week. If you don't this deficit continues.
Now this is YOUR budget. Not what you can afford.



The federal deficit is simply the amount of money the federal .gov takes in minus expendatures.
It is not our budget. We also over spend our budget. It takes Congress to authorize it but they do it all the time.



That's the basics. The country budget is more involved due to reserves(not reported BTW), borrowing refinancing, taxes and other "favors" we do for other countries.

Deficit basically means we are out of balance. Not on track. It does not mean we are bankrupt.


That is for sure. But it is not wise to continue to overspend. I don't care who you are. Reagan was right. There should be a balanced budget amendment plain and simple.


Now the trade deficit will hurt our business more so than the government. However, with the shift in our economy away from manufacturing, this is really not much cause for alarm just yet.


I respectfully submit that if business suffers EVERYONE suffers including especially the .gov
ETA....you're right the .gov won't suffer they will just continue to spend more than they "make" What was I thinking?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:28:46 AM EDT
I'm insolvent but none of my creditors may legally foreclose on any of my accounts. Insolvency of a debtor does not necessarily give a creditor a right to file suit or seize assets.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:29:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.


True,BUT how many of those countries actually are going to remember all that? Sad to say but also true is the fact that most of the countries we've helped at one time or another hate us.
I say ,if the world decides to collect,let em try. See what happens.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:29:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
If the rest of the world called in our notes, we would be screwed. Short of threatening to nuke the rest of the planet, we would cease to exist. Japan, China, and most of Europe would own us.



Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:30:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 6:30:35 AM EDT by JIMBEAM]
Why doesn't Bono help us then?


Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:32:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bulldog1967:

Originally Posted By armoredsaint:

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



+1 and we should own France and Germany by now



Only if we can make France a trailer park!



Yeah they already have enough trash to populate it.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:33:46 AM EDT
Are we sticking it to the rest of the world

or

are we sticking it to ourselves?

I'd guess that if we weren't the little busybodies that we are the rest of the world would be in chaos pretty quick.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:34:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lordtrader:
You know when you start your on personal budget.
Let's say you budget $10 a day for lunch or $50 a week.
One day, you spent $12 or for that week you spent $52
You are now running $2 deficit on your budget. So you need to curve your spending next week. If you don't this deficit continues.
Now this is YOUR budget. Not what you can afford.



Poor analogy.


Try this one:


Your Income is $40000 take home per year

Your budget is $40000 take home per year

You spent $440000 last year, putting $4000 on credit cards

You spend $470000 this year, putting $7000 on credit cards


with interest, you are now $15867 in debt.


You continue this, year after year........
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:35:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Sgt_Rock:
Considering all the US has done for this world... winning 2 World Wars, the rebuilding of Japan & Europe, holding the Soviets at bay and winning the Cold War, unending poverty & famine & disaster relief throughout the globe....we don't owe them shit. They OWE us their endless thanks, humility, and submission.



I wonld not say endless. After 2 thouand years, those alive won't care about the US. Do you care much of Rome?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:36:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By lordtrader:
You know when you start your on personal budget.
Let's say you budget $10 a day for lunch or $50 a week.
One day, you spent $12 or for that week you spent $52
You are now running $2 deficit on your budget. So you need to curve your spending next week. If you don't this deficit continues.
Now this is YOUR budget. Not what you can afford.



Poor analogy.


Try this one:


Your Income is $40000 take home per year

Your budget is $40000 take home per year

You spent $440000 last year, putting $4000 on credit cards

You spend $470000 this year, putting $7000 on credit cards


with interest, you are now $15867 in debt.


You continue this, year after year........



I think it's your analogy that is poor.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:37:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By legalese77:
I'm insolvent but none of my creditors may legally foreclose on any of my accounts. Insolvency of a debtor does not necessarily give a creditor a right to file suit or seize assets.



Apple meet an orange.

I don't think I would like to take my chances on a "world court" bankrupty judge's opinion over how to split up Texas.

Of course YMMV.


PS I don't think this is going to happen we are pretty damned strong finacially. If we are plunged into economic chaos the rest of the world will have been in front of us.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:45:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:47:11 AM EDT
Most of this debt is debt we owe to each other, it’s not like all the debt is held by overseas companies.

That being said, we’ve got to do something.

Our Government is spending money like crazy and most of it goes to social programs. The average American really has no idea of just how Government money is spent as proven by the nods of agreement you’ll get when you say something like, “We need to stop spending all our money on foreign aid and space research and spend it at home.”

Don’t take my word for it though, go look up the US Budget and see for yourselves.

What’s happened is that we’ve gotten ourselves into a viscous circle.

The governments (Feds and state.) start programs to help out the truly needy. But they have to tax people to pay for it. These taxes drive more people into poverty so the governments spend more money, driving more people into poverty…

And most Americans expect to be able to afford a few of the nice things in life but the tax burden means they have to borrow money to get them.

Meanwhile, the increased taxes and regulations on business drive production overseas. This lowers the wages the average man can earn reducing the tax base and increasing the demand for social programs.

Then the credit laws make it possible for banks to trap people in debt forever with their 21% interest rates (plus penalties and fees.)

Viscous circles tend to accelerate rapidly until they reach their inevitable end and I’m afraid we are headed to the end of this one. Something will give and it probably won’t be pretty. I would expect a round of hyperinflation like Germany went through between the wars. That will cure the debt problem by wiping out everyone’s savings.

Or worse, the government could tie consumer debt to the rate of inflation. Our savings would disappear but our debt wouldn’t.

There are things the Government could do to break out of this viscous circle and prevent this crisis. But I don’t have much hope that our elected officials will figure out what to do.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:49:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
If the rest of the world called in our notes, we would be screwed. Short of threatening to nuke the rest of the planet, we would cease to exist. Japan, China, and most of Europe would own us.



How much of that debt is actually money this country owes to other countries? And of that money how many times over would it be paid if we started collected what other countires owe or should owe this country?

Is debt and deficit the same thing in this context or is debt what we owe other countries and deficit what we "owe ourselves" thanks to irresponsible spending by our "leaders"?
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:49:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
Also, all of our debts are in dollars. We can always print more money to pay those debts (at the cost of some inflation). It is like lending money to Hasbro, and allowing Hasbro to pay you back in Monopoly money.



This is the important bit.

The US government can never go bankrupt, as it can always print money and pay off the debts that way.

Now, that would ruin not just the national, but the entire global economy, so I don't see anything so drastic as that happening any time soon.

The point is that worst case scenario, the economy is totally ruined for some time due to massive inflation, but no one would 'own' us.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:51:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 6:53:15 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By lordtrader:

YOUR ANALOGY IS WRONG IN THIS CASE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT DEBT AS IN CREDIT CARDS. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!




What the HELL are you talking about?


We BORROW money to finance our budget deficit by issuing BONDS. These bonds pay INTEREST.
'



What are these "Reserves" you speak of? Raiding Social Security? That pot is drying up.


Our "Federal Reserve" is neither Federal, nor a Reserve.


Our "Reserves" are comprised of a checkbook where we make up money from thin air.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:54:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 7:08:04 AM EDT by BCP]
has anyone ever heard of the balance of payments (BOP) account? yeah we have a large "trade" deficit.... also known as the US "current account" what do we know about the "capital" account, though?

if the trade deficit happened to be overwhelming our economy, our currency rates would be falling faster than zimbabwe's after expropriation
-----------------

sure, our trade deficit is large, but even though we are a net importer of goods (a deficit balance in the trade account), we also have a surplus in foreign investment to offset the trade deficit.

-just an opinion, what do ya'll think?


furthermore, the government also keeps a reserve account called the "change in official reserves" such as holding currencies in reserve
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:55:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By lordtrader:

. THE DEFICIT DOES NOT ACCRUE INTEREST!!



Really, why does it take appox. 15% of the .gov income to pay the interest on the debt......that you think doesn't even exist.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:56:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BCP:
has anyone ever heard of the balance of payments (BOP) account? yeah we have a large "trade" deficit.... also known as the US "current account" what do we know about the "capital" account, though?

if the trade deficit happened to be overwhelming our economy, our currency rates would be falling faster than zimbabwe's after expropriation
-----------------

sure, our trade deficit is large, but even though we are a net importer of goods (a deficit balance in the trade account), we also have a surplus in foreign investment to offset the trade deficit.

-just an opinion, what do ya'll think?





Rank Order - Current account balance


CIA World Fact Book


1 Japan $ 158,300,000,000 2005 est.

2 China $ 129,100,000,000 2005 est.

3 Germany $ 119,800,000,000 2005 est.



149 United States $ -829,100,000,000 2005 est.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:57:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:

Originally Posted By legalese77:
I'm insolvent but none of my creditors may legally foreclose on any of my accounts. Insolvency of a debtor does not necessarily give a creditor a right to file suit or seize assets.



Apple meet an orange.

I don't think I would like to take my chances on a "world court" bankrupty judge's opinion over how to split up Texas.



*shrug*

I can cite legal authority for the proposition that a creditor cannot take legal action against a debtor who has not breached his obligations relative to agreements with his creditors. Legally speaking, I am unaware of any authority that would suggest that the proposed contingency is even a remote possibility.

As a practical matter, I suppose that nothing prohibits the Sultan of Umbabamaumau from crying to some purported world judicial authority and said authority issuing some absurd proclamation wholly unsupported in law. Then the question then becomes one of practicality. Obviously, I'm not qualified to speak on the topic of a U.N. invasion for the pruposes of debt enforcement. I'm no history professor so I'm having a tough time coming up with modern examples that would suggest that such a possiblity is anything more than unfounded postulation.

As we all know, however, the U.N. is largely impotent when dealing with ANY nation that flouts U.N. authority. I would, however, suggest that debt enforcement need not take such a radical form. The United States has assets abroad in many forms. I would suggest that sanctions and seizure of assets abroad would come long before any fanciful invasion and fencing off of the oil fields in Texas as part of some fairytale foreclosure. I think that such a discussion is patently absurd. With that, I will show myself out.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 7:03:09 AM EDT
Let them try to foreclose on me...

Molon Labe!
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