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Posted: 1/26/2006 3:26:40 AM EDT

Bush says you are mistaken if you think the Executive branch is going to bail out the auto industry.

Kokorian just puchased his 12 million shares of GM stock back.

Bush says to auto exec's..."make a car that's relevent."

Just on my local news.

How's that for spanking the bad kid?
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:29:46 AM EDT
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


i would of let them went bankrupt too!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:33:08 AM EDT
Bush is just looking out for Mexico by making sure the US automakers have to send the jobs there in order to stay in business.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:58:07 AM EDT
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:04:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


i would of let them went bankrupt too!




So would I, but I think he had little choice as we had been patting their poo-poo for a long time before GWB got into office (I believe the first bail-out happened in the '90's).
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:05:34 AM EDT
When the US auto makers start producing cars that can complete with Honda and Toyota they will turn around until then they are down the shitter big time. The big 3 gave away the car market to Japan and now the Koreans. They put all their eggs in one basket with the SUVs and now it's biting them in the ass. They have high costs like pensions, health benefits, out of line executive pay and not to mention some unappealing products. Should the government bail them out? NO!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:08:08 AM EDT

Bush says to Automakers...go fly a kite



They couldn't build a kite right either.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:21:30 AM EDT
Bush to autoworkers:


Build a car that people want to buy and ditch the unions
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:24:44 AM EDT
Gee thats funny, Toyota built my car here in Ohio and they cant keep enough on the showroom floor. Its the automakers' fault they are too incompetent to build a product people want to buy.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:25:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By demigod:

Bush says to Automakers...go fly a kite



They couldn't build a kite right either.



It will need a new transmission every 30,000 miles, ka-boom the intake manifold, and somehow consume 3 gallons of gas per mile flown, even though it doesn't have a transmission, intake manifold, or an engine.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:26:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DirtyDan:
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.



Damned good point!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:29:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


i would of let them went bankrupt too!



[jules]English Muthafucker, do you speak it?[/jules]
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:30:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:38:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mayday:
Gee thats funny, Toyota built my car here in Ohio and they cant keep enough on the showroom floor. Its the automakers' fault they are too incompetent to build a product people want to buy.



+1 !!!!!!!!!!!

The big three have been ruined by the unions and butt kissing "yes men". They've also been listening
to JD Powers for WAAAAY too long. Build something relevent and STFU! The big three lost me back
in the early 80's.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:38:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

So would I, but I think he had little choice as we had been patting their poo-poo for a long time before GWB got into office (I believe the first bail-out happened in the '90's).



Actually, it was the 70's, and Chrysler for the first bailout I can recall. Good ol' Carter(LOL). The bailout had a restriction on not developing any new 8 cylinder engines, 'cuz they are gas hogs, so Chrysler developed the V10 that eventually made it into the Viper.

Geoff
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:49:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gander:

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

So would I, but I think he had little choice as we had been patting their poo-poo for a long time before GWB got into office (I believe the first bail-out happened in the '90's).



Actually, it was the 70's, and Chrysler for the first bailout I can recall. Good ol' Carter(LOL). The bailout had a restriction on not developing any new 8 cylinder engines, 'cuz they are gas hogs, so Chrysler developed the V10 that eventually made it into the Viper.

Geoff





Or the new 6.1L V8 that makes 425 hp, about as much hp as the first V10 Vipers.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 4:53:43 AM EDT
Unfortunately I don't see a significant change in the US Automakers' plans for a long time.

It's going to take a decade or two to get rid of some of the well intrenched upper and middle management - the ones that are STILL guarding their own golden parachutes - before we will see a change for the better.

Remember, these "managers" are not interested in the long term survival of the company - they are protecting their jobs and pensions for as long as possible.

"CYA" is job #1.



CMOS
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:17:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 5:18:52 AM EDT by TimJ]
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:36:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Bush is just looking out for Mexico by making sure the US automakers have to send the jobs there in order to stay in business.



Actually, I read in the paper yesterday that Ford is shutting down a plant in Mexico in this round of closures. Guess it wasn't profitable.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:52:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 5:52:56 AM EDT by sydney7629]
What is it about American companies that just sit back and allow foreign manufacturers to blow by them?

Back in the 70's and 80's the government established tarriffs on imported motorcycles keeping Harley Davidson from going under.

Do you remember your living rooms back in the 70's? How many people didn't have a Zenith TV? Now you'd be hard pressed to find one. It's not because foreign TV's are cheaper. Its because they are better

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:56:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


i would of let them went bankrupt too!



+1
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:06:13 AM EDT
American corps. make bad decisions & I (taxpayer) have to bail them out?
The fact that anybody even thinks that Mommy.gov should save them from themselves shows how brainwashed the average Joe & Jill are about the role of .gov these days.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:08:40 AM EDT
Anyone read the shit about Ford where they, because of their last union contract, have to pay the people they lay off full pay and benefits for a period of time? That shows how dumb both unions and Ford were. Of course, the only reason was to insure the union bosses get a cut right up to the last gasp of Ford.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:08:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By demigod:

Bush says to Automakers...go fly a kite



They couldn't build a kite right either.



It will need a new transmission every 30,000 miles, ka-boom the intake manifold, and somehow consume 3 gallons of gas per mile flown, even though it doesn't have a transmission, intake manifold, or an engine.



Don't forget that Japanese kites are $5 and last 10 years. American kites are $10, last 4 years, and the kite builder won't get off his smoke break until he is on overtime. Included in the kite cost is the worker pension, his father's pension, braces on his 4 kids, his mom's hip replacement surgery, and his wifes mood altering drug prescription, along with her open heart surgery last year.

Kite is fitting, think "overhead"...............
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:10:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


As much as I hate to say it...the airlines are a different breed. If the top three airlines went under, the economy of the United States tanks overnight. If the Ford and GM go under, we all just buy Hondas instead.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:12:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Bush is just looking out for Mexico by making sure the US automakers have to send the jobs there in order to stay in business.



Actually, I read in the paper yesterday that Ford is shutting down a plant in Mexico in this round of closures. Guess it wasn't profitable.



Now that is interesting, and that has to be a very bad sign.

Ford is one the most mismanaged companies on the face of the Earth so I'm not surprised in the least.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:15:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 6:26:33 AM EDT by SWS]

Originally Posted By ArmedAggie:
Anyone read the shit about Ford where they, because of their last union contract, have to pay the people they lay off full pay and benefits for a period of time?



It's my understanding that the Big Three can't close any plants, reconfigure plants or reassign workers without the permission of the UAW.

ETA from CNN Money. It looks like GM has to pay laid off workers as well:

"GM's UAW contract essentially forces it to pay union employees during the life of the contract even if hourly workers are laid off and their plants are closed. But those protections only run through September 2007, when the current four-year pact with the union ends. "

money.cnn.com/2005/06/07/news/fortune500/gm_closings/
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:19:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


As much as I hate to say it...the airlines are a different breed. If the top three airlines went under, the economy of the United States tanks overnight. If the Ford and GM go under, we all just buy Hondas instead.



Unfortunately, I don't think the domestic market can support all the carriers we have any longer. Southwest will reign supreme and the others are just fighting over the scraps. It's made even worse for US air carriers in that all the competitors in the foreign market are essentially state-run. Ugh, the airline industry makes the auto industry look wonderful.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:25:03 AM EDT
The the days of yore, the USA Big-3 automakers always said that there was fierce competition between themselves, but in reality there isn't. The paradigm for the USA auto industry has shifted, but the Big-3 still thinks the competition in the other Big-3, when inessence it's Toyota, Honda, Suziki also etc. The USA Big-3 solution to competition from the other than Big-3 is cede market share. But I think the real reason for all of this shanagans is that the Big-3 auto companies want out of the generaous pension programs and the USA taxpayer to shoulder the burden.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:25:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DirtyDan:
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.



Not all of us... Detroit and its voters will be the end of MI...
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:26:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:

Originally Posted By hanau:
but,but you bailed out the airlines!


As much as I hate to say it...the airlines are a different breed. If the top three airlines went under, the economy of the United States tanks overnight. If the Ford and GM go under, we all just buy Hondas instead.



exactly. the only other option from bailing them out would be goobermentizing the airlines. and thats a no no. Then you'd wait in line for 3 hours just to get into the right line, ....like at the SS office.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:28:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
What is it about American companies that just sit back and allow foreign manufacturers to blow by them?

Back in the 70's and 80's the government established tarriffs on imported motorcycles keeping Harley Davidson from going under.

Do you remember your living rooms back in the 70's? How many people didn't have a Zenith TV? Now you'd be hard pressed to find one. It's not because foreign TV's are cheaper. Its because they are better



Actually there has not been a tv made in the USA for about 15 years.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:32:30 AM EDT
GM should have listened to Ross Perot all those years ago. Fuck 'em.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:43:16 AM EDT
When Ford goes under it will hurt me, my family, friends, and everyone around me big time. Do I lament its imminent demise? Not in the slightest. Why you ask? Please allow me to rant. I studied mechanical engineering at UofM and graduated in '93. I worked hard at a difficult field of study because I love cars and wanted to make them my life's work. Well, my idealism met reality when I entered the workforce after graduation. Auto companies and many of their suppliers are terrible places to work. I found mis- and micro-management, cronyism, favoratism, and arrogance reigned supreme. My vision of working with a bunch of other"car guys" was replaced with working with people who didn't give a shit about cars at all, but making as much money as possible and advancing their careers while fucking over anybody who got in their way. In 1995 Ford rolled out heir "Ford 2000" program which was basically a Clinton era quota program to hire as many female and minority engineers they could find. The result was "diversity" and career whores who didn't know the difference between a camshaft and the pole up their ass. Some of my worst and most obnoxious customers are the ones who come in wearing Ford badges. They want to be paid top dollar for their work and will firebomb your house if you buy a foreign car but will nickle and dime you to death until you are making minimum wage. They also have no problem whatsoever buying on the internet or from overseas companies. It's okay for them to outsource but you better not do it. Arrogant, hypocritical pricks.

I left in disgust in the mid '90's, started my own business and am much happier. Even though Ford's demise will hurt my business economically, I can enthusiastically say:

GO FUCK YOURSELF FORD
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 6:59:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Praetorian55:

Originally Posted By DirtyDan:
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.



Not all of us... Detroit and its voters will be the end of MI...



+1

However, I think da UP primarily voted blue at the last major election as well as the Detroit area.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:02:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Bush is just looking out for Mexico by making sure the US automakers have to send the jobs there in order to stay in business.



Actually, I read in the paper yesterday that Ford is shutting down a plant in Mexico in this round of closures. Guess it wasn't profitable.



No shit

There IS a God!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:07:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fraglord:
When Ford goes under it will hurt me, my family, friends, and everyone around me big time. Do I lament its imminent demise? Not in the slightest. Why you ask? Please allow me to rant. I studied mechanical engineering at UofM and graduated in '93. I worked hard at a difficult field of study because I love cars and wanted to make them my life's work. Well, my idealism met reality when I entered the workforce after graduation. Auto companies and many of their suppliers are terrible places to work. I found mis- and micro-management, cronyism, favoratism, and arrogance reigned supreme. My vision of working with a bunch of other"car guys" was replaced with working with people who didn't give a shit about cars at all, but making as much money as possible and advancing their careers while fucking over anybody who got in their way. In 1995 Ford rolled out heir "Ford 2000" program which was basically a Clinton era quota program to hire as many female and minority engineers they could find. The result was "diversity" and career whores who didn't know the difference between a camshaft and the pole up their ass. Some of my worst and most obnoxious customers are the ones who come in wearing Ford badges. They want to be paid top dollar for their work and will firebomb your house if you buy a foreign car but will nickle and dime you to death until you are making minimum wage. They also have no problem whatsoever buying on the internet or from overseas companies. It's okay for them to outsource but you better not do it. Arrogant, hypocritical pricks.

I left in disgust in the mid '90's, started my own business and am much happier. Even though Ford's demise will hurt my business economically, I can enthusiastically say:

GO FUCK YOURSELF FORD



UofM Dearborn or Ann Arbor?

Ann Arbor is so stupidly overpriced and the instructors are more egocentric than some of the super-villains in comic books.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:13:34 AM EDT
Ann Arbor. You are correct, some of the profs and many of the students are assholes there. I can say that most of my profs were good people and the people in the College of Engineering tended to be much better people than the liberal arts types(LSA=losers, shitheads, assholes).
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:19:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Ford is one the most mismanaged companies on the face of the Earth so I'm not surprised in the least.



That's no shit. They can't even make all their own vehicles. Every heavy truck with a Ford logo on it for the last ten years (approx.) has been manufactured under contract by GM.

CO
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:24:21 AM EDT
Dump the Free Trade bullshit, Get a plan that favors us.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:35:01 AM EDT
I remember all too well 'The 70's' total POS cars that DEtroit was fobbing off on the marketplace. Their products were of very poor quality, over priced and unreliable to say the least. Then that first litttle rust bucket Honda showed up......and they laughed at it.

Now Toyota is poised to be #1 in the world and Honda is kicking their ass in quality and resale.

I heard that some Chinese made brand car at 20% below average domestic equivalent is set to be imported.

Unless they get their butts in gear, and soon, the US auto makers are in for a serious butt whoopin'

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:39:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By DirtyDan:
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.



Damned good point!


blame NAFTA.
Hell, blame anybody but yourselves.




In 99 I bought a brand new Jeep Grand Cherokee. My first new car purchase. Before that, I drove a mazda b200 pu with over 100k that had zero problems. After the maza, I drove a honda prelude, HARD, for 100k and gave it to my nephew. When I met my wife she had a mercury capri pos, I bought a maxima. Gave her the maxima, bought the Jeep. The jeep was the bigges maintenence nightmare ever. In the shop over 12 times in the first year, so I sold it, and bought a BMW.

I gave american automakers their chance, and they sold me shit.

I refuse to give money to poor car makers.

FUck 'em.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:40:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fraglord:
When Ford goes under it will hurt me, my family, friends, and everyone around me big time. Do I lament its imminent demise? Not in the slightest. Why you ask? Please allow me to rant. I studied mechanical engineering at UofM and graduated in '93. I worked hard at a difficult field of study because I love cars and wanted to make them my life's work. Well, my idealism met reality when I entered the workforce after graduation. Auto companies and many of their suppliers are terrible places to work. I found mis- and micro-management, cronyism, favoratism, and arrogance reigned supreme. My vision of working with a bunch of other"car guys" was replaced with working with people who didn't give a shit about cars at all, but making as much money as possible and advancing their careers while fucking over anybody who got in their way. In 1995 Ford rolled out heir "Ford 2000" program which was basically a Clinton era quota program to hire as many female and minority engineers they could find. The result was "diversity" and career whores who didn't know the difference between a camshaft and the pole up their ass. Some of my worst and most obnoxious customers are the ones who come in wearing Ford badges. They want to be paid top dollar for their work and will firebomb your house if you buy a foreign car but will nickle and dime you to death until you are making minimum wage. They also have no problem whatsoever buying on the internet or from overseas companies. It's okay for them to outsource but you better not do it. Arrogant, hypocritical pricks.

I left in disgust in the mid '90's, started my own business and am much happier. Even though Ford's demise will hurt my business economically, I can enthusiastically say:

GO FUCK YOURSELF FORD




Big +1. I personally work for a supplier to the auto industry. Everyone laughs their ass off about 'low bid' this or 'low bid' that. Bottom line is that the cars they make are assembled masses of 'low bid' everything with rare exception. Their whorish attitude pervades the entire supply chain from top to bottom. I drove a 2000 Windstar for a while. What a piece of CRAP that thing was. Quality is job One? Stop it! You're killing me Ford!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:44:50 AM EDT
One more thing....for years and years I strongly favored domestic and put up with the maintenance headaches and low resales etc. Felt it was 'duty' to buy American.....

Then I bought a 2004 Accord LX V6. Soon as I bought that car, I realized the US auto industry is in very big trouble!

I have NO SYMPATHY FOR THEM AT ALL!



Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:54:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ThirtyCal_FAL:
One more thing....for years and years I strongly favored domestic and put up with the maintenance headaches and low resales etc. Felt it was 'duty' to buy American.....

Then I bought a 2004 Accord LX V6. Soon as I bought that car, I realized the US auto industry is in very big trouble!

I have NO SYMPATHY FOR THEM AT ALL!






+1 to that. I bought a 2004 Acura TSX and it's the best car I've ever owned. It's far and away better than the 1995 Taurus SHO, 1994 Mustang, and (what was I thinking) 1987 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z that all fell apart over the years.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:21:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
What is it about American companies that just sit back and allow foreign manufacturers to blow by them?

Back in the 70's and 80's the government established tarriffs on imported motorcycles keeping Harley Davidson from going under.

Do you remember your living rooms back in the 70's? How many people didn't have a Zenith TV? Now you'd be hard pressed to find one. It's not because foreign TV's are cheaper. Its because they are better




HD is the perfect example of what you're talking about, and I think perhaps the Big 3 are trying to follow HD's business model.

Sit back, do nothing, and lose money hand over fist until your product sells based almost entirely based on nostalgia and retro style to a different market that views poor workmanship and unreliability as desirable attributes.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:32:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 8:34:02 AM EDT by spartacus2002]
I was a lifelong Ford fan and Ford owner til they refused to do anything about an unethical Ford dealership that was dicking over soldiers by lying to them about unnecessary repairs. I wrote to Ford, they said too bad so sad.

Bought a Nissan, never looked back.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:41:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mayday:

Originally Posted By DirtyDan:
Payback is a bitch, Michigan along with the auto-unions went with the democrat’s on the last Presidential election.



Damned good point!



+3
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:49:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

HD is the perfect example of what you're talking about, and I think perhaps the Big 3 are trying to follow HD's business model.

Sit back, do nothing, and lose money hand over fist until your product sells based almost entirely based on nostalgia and retro style to a different market that views poor workmanship and unreliability as desirable attributes.



Close, but even Harley-Davidson eventually figured it out and picked up the QC on thier product. In the past five years or so, the finish quality and reliability of Harley's entire lineup has increased almost exponentially. They make quite a good product, and now that the "waiting list" syndrome has died down in most dealerships, you can often times pick one up for MSRP, which is just a bit more expensive than the metric cruisers. H-D makes a good product that is competitive and desirable. Ford, GM, and Chrysler, for the most part, do not. And most importantly, H-D knows how to make a profit while doing it.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Repeater:

Originally Posted By WinstonSmith:

HD is the perfect example of what you're talking about, and I think perhaps the Big 3 are trying to follow HD's business model.

Sit back, do nothing, and lose money hand over fist until your product sells based almost entirely based on nostalgia and retro style to a different market that views poor workmanship and unreliability as desirable attributes.



Close, but even Harley-Davidson eventually figured it out and picked up the QC on thier product. In the past five years or so, the finish quality and reliability of Harley's entire lineup has increased almost exponentially. They make quite a good product, and now that the "waiting list" syndrome has died down in most dealerships, you can often times pick one up for MSRP, which is just a bit more expensive than the metric cruisers. H-D makes a good product that is competitive and desirable. Ford, GM, and Chrysler, for the most part, do not. And most importantly, H-D knows how to make a profit while doing it.



And where did HD go to find out about modern assembly line manuafcturing and QC?

Japan.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 8:57:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2006 8:59:09 AM EDT by Belfry_Express]

Originally Posted By KeMiCaLs:
Dump the Free Trade bullshit, Get a plan that favors us.




you just got the solution to your own demand
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