... An interesting thread was started on that "other site" regarding the possibility of prosecution against someone using Tannerite. So far, it's been an eye-opener. Original Thread

... I would like to broaden it's discussion within ARFCOM's mature-crowd base.

... Please keep it civil, unemotional and logical.

... The following is an excerpt from an Arizona prosecutor on the matter. Yes, they're Arizona stautues quoted but they could apply to any State.

... Please discuss.

I'll admit to being the friend ************** was having his original conversation about Tannerite with. I love the stuff, but because I work as a prosecutor, can't afford to be caught with something illegal since it would be an immediate career ender. I looked up the applicable state statutes and they seem to pretty clearly outlaw the product. I have no doubt that if law enforcement picked you up for having or using it, the prosecutor's office would prosecute the case and most likely prevail at trial.

Under the explosives/weapons statute (ARS 13-3101 et seq), "explosive" includes dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder or other similar explosive material. Tannerite is definitely explosive (it explodes, and it even calls itself an explosive on the bottle label), and would fall under "other similar explosive material". ****** is right though when he says the law doesn't prohibit the possession of explosives, it prohibits the possession of an "explosive bomb". Sadly, the statutes do not define "bomb" anywhere. I would argue that Tannerite is not a bomb, and therefore not illegal under the weapons/explosives statute, but it's not an argument I'd like to make to a trial judge as a defendant looking at several years in prison.

Under the fireworks statute (ARS 36-1601 et seq), "fireworks" include any combustible or explosive composition, substance or combination of substances, or any article prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation. That CLEARLY includes Tannerite. It is practically the definition of Tannerite: an explosive composition prepared for the purpose of producing an audible effect. State law completely outlaws the possession or use of fireworks, and therefore Tannerite.

Now, ************** and I were discussing the matter to try to find a manner in which Tannerite would be legal, since I love the stuff so much. So far, we haven't found any. I'll sum up and address some of the theories I've seen (I'll call them "defenses" since that's essentially what they would be if you or I were prosecuted) and explain why they don't work.

1. "Tannerite is legal because it can only be detonated by a high velocity bullet." ; "You can not detonate Tannerite with fire, blasting caps or detonation cord. Well that pretty much blows away the FIREworks argument now doesn't it."

This theory defines the legality of Tannerite by the method in which it is detonated. Unfortunately, the statute does not define a firework or explosive by the means of detonation. (See the statute as posted by **************) The mere fact that it can detonate is what makes it an explosive. And the fact you do it to create a sound makes it a firework. The terms "explosive" and "fireworks" are clearly defined within the statute by describing the material iself. Nowhere does the statute require fire or combustion. The method of detonation is wholly irrelevant.

2. "It is not an explosive until it is mixed."

I agree with this claim 100%. Tannerite is not an explosive and not illegal in unmixed form. The problem is, nobody wants to buy Tannerite to look at on the shelf in separate containers. They buy it to mix it and blow it up. That's the whole point. Once you or I mix it and MCSO rolls up on you setting it up in the desert, or even shooting and detonating it, game over.

3. "If it is classified an explosive it can not be a firework."

Sure it can. Things can be classified under many different names and categories by the legislature. It can be classified as "monkey poo" if the legislature deems it so and enacts a statute. The statute clearly defines it as a firework. Just read it. ************** posted it for you. Go ahead, I'll wait.

4. "A can of ammo or black powder could be considered an explosive or firework under the statute".

No it can't. If you read the statute posted by **************, the Legislature specifically exempted ammo and black powder for reloading from the statute. If you're not using the black powder for reloading, and are just using it to shoot and blow up as a target, then you're correct, that does fall under a "firework" and is illegal.

5. "Under federal law you can still have explosives just not transport, sell, or store it." ; "Federal law comes first, then state law can impose additional regulations" ; "It is not Misconduct because Federal explosive laws specifically PERMIT you to manufacture and use explosives where they are to be used for PRIVATE use."

This is the most common argument I have seen for the legality of Tannerite. It is also the answer I got from the folks that actually manufacture and sell Tannerite. The basic argument is that federal law allows Tannerite, and federal law supersedes state law, therefore Tannerite is legal. This is a legal concept known as preemption. Unfortunately, the concept of preemption is not that simple. Often, state law exists and applies despite the existance of federal law. For example, running red lights in your car is perfectly legal under Federal law. It's the state law that prohibits it. State law that still applies despite the existence of volumes of Federal traffic and highway regulations.

There are only three instances in which Federal law preempts State law: When Congress has "occupied the field" in which the state is attempting to regulate, when a state law directly conflicts with federal law, or whether enforcement of the state law might frustrate federal purposes.

With respect to whether Congress has "occupied the field," Federal "occupation of the field" occurs, according to the Court in Pennsylvania v Nelson (1956), when there is "no room" left for state regulation. Clearly, there is still room for state regulation of weapons and explosives, as evidenced by the numerous state laws that restrict ownership further than the Federal laws do. For example, the California Assault Weapons Ban. If the field were "occupied", states could not enact such bans.

With respect to whether the Federal laws directly conflict with the state ones, I have seen no Federal law that would conflict in such a manner. I know there are federal regulations regarding the manufacturing and transporting of Tannerite, but I have never seen one that governs the mere possession and use of it. This is the type of statute ************** and I would love to see to put us at ease. Some people have claimed such a law exists, but I've been unable to find one. Those people who claim it exist usually follow that with something silly like, "I'd have to travel to my buddy's manufacturing plant to get it" or "I'd have to request them from the ATF" after their claim in order to avoid actually searching for the phantom statute. I have magical news for you! Anyone has immediate and free access to all Federal and State laws. Just click here: http://www.findlaw.com and click "for legal professionals" at the top. Voila! You can read through the entire USC, CFR, and ARS from the comfort of your couch. Please inform us if you find one that permits the possession and use of Tannerite, and directly conflicts with Arizona Statute, because it would solve our problems!

Finally, the State Statutes do not frustrate any stated Federal Purpose. They merely prohibit private possession and use of explosive bombs and fireworks. If they prohibited the Army from using explosives, for example, then there would be a frustration of Federal purpose. But that's not the situation we're dealing with at hand. The Federal Government has no inherent interest in you or I going out and blowing up Tannerite in the desert.


Whew! That was long and preachy! But that basically sums up the situation as I see it at this time. Man, I love that Tannerite, but speaking as an attorney who deals with these types of laws day in and day out, I don't see any way that this stuff is legal.

If this is the case, then it likely will only take a single egomaniacal district attorney with an agenda to levy charges against the manufacturer of Tannerite when some state laws like you describe wind up being broken.

Oh, they will run you in for sure if they want to be a jerk about it.

hmm,..      


per Tannerite:

WHY IS TANNERITE LEGAL? Answer: Manufacturing is a commerce issue governed by the feds. Page 58 CFR 5400.7 General Q&A Section, new edition: #36. When is a Federal manufacturing license required? "A manufacturer's license is needed ONLY by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosives materials for SALE, DISTRIBUTION, or for BUSINESS use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, NON-commercial use would not need a license." The above is the law of the land on the use of Tannerite. We feel that it is important to note that in some situations, a person may be in violation and not know it. Such a situation is when a range mixes Tannerite and then charges a fee to shoot it. In this situation, IF the shooter is paying the range owner any kind of reimbursement, renumeration, etc, it is "possible" that the range would be required to be licensed. Thus far, we aren't aware of this being enforced (Using Knob Creek Range as an example, they have been told that they do not need a license to mix Tannerite for the line shooters). All things are subject to change, and we will keep the public informed of any new changes in law. Some states claim that the L&I (labor and Industry dept) or other agencies have authority to regulate Tannerite. This is simply not the case if the shooter is using the targets for personal use.

That doesn't necessarily mean you're not breaking the law by possessing explosives.    Wouldn't need a licencse because it's illegal?

Come the Revolution, the attorneys git it first. OK?

D: I read it, but I have no clue because I am not a lawyer.

Here's a question and it's a bit of a thread hijack, and I appologize for it.

How many of us here could get prosecuted for our personal ammo stash not complying with various state laws regarding storage of ammo or gun powder.

Pretty sure that California regs are such that they get hinky if you have over 20 pounds of smokeless or 1 pound of black powder without a special permit.


Just another area where Federal regulations may have little bearing on State regs.     I'd love to play with Tannerite but it kind of scares the hell out of me being in California.     A place where Spud Guns and 2 liter dry ice bombs are considered too evil to trust the citizenry with.

.

I read that long post and agree that UNDER ARIZONA law one could possibly be prosected. BUt I have one question, do all cops that you encounter really know the law that indepth that if you should them the Tannerite discalimer taht they wouldn't jsut say "OK carry and be safe."

I just hope there is nothing sneaky like that in the Oregon law books. If there isn't I am sure that the libtards running this state will try to put it in.

Free the Tannerite!!!!

Quoted: Here's a question and it's a bit of a thread hijack, and I appologize for it. How many of us here could get prosecuted for our personal ammo stash not complying with various state laws regarding storage of ammo or gun powder. Pretty sure that California regs are such that they get hinky if you have over 20 pounds of smokeless or 1 pound of black powder without a special permit. Just another area where Federal regulations may have little bearing on State regs.     I'd love to play with Tannerite but it kind of scares the hell out of me being in California.     A place where Spud Guns and 2 liter dry ice bombs are considered too evil to trust the citizenry with.

Maybe in PRK, but the the land of the free, there are not many regs reguarding ammo storage....

Your insurance might bitch...but that isn't illegal.

Tag.  Interesting stuff.

I think that you would have to criminally use the tannerite to get hauled in.  Farmers can use black powder to clear stumps per federal law, Why can't i use tannerite.

Legal or not, get it while you can...

And keep your mouth shut about it. <----This causes most of the problems for people regardless of what's involved...

Quoted: I think that you would have to criminally use the tannerite to get hauled in.  Farmers can use black powder to clear stumps per federal law, Why can't i use tannerite.

... Tend to agree, but that's never stopped anyone from getting charged if they thought they'd win.

How is it illegal?  It's binary.  Even when after mixing the two parts together it won't go off without being hit with a high velocity round.  You can't set it off with a match (like fireworks).  Given the criteria you describe then your car should be illegal as it has a gas tank and we all know how volatile gasoline is.

The way I read it Tannerite is OK in Florida if it is not intended to be used as a weapon, is not in a frangible container, and it is  approved not declared a destructive device by the ATF. The mixture could be considered an explosive but that doesn't make it illegal because it is not a "Destructive Device".

I had to argue with an off-duty LEO at a cookout a couple of months ago because he kept saying that it was illegal and a destructive device when we set a couple of bottles off. I told him what the law says and he still didn't believe me. His brother kept telling him to just pull the stick out of his ass and try to have fun for a change

This is how Florida defines it:

Making, possessing, throwing, projecting, placing, or discharging any destructive device or attempt so to do, felony; penalties.--A person who willfully and unlawfully makes, possesses, throws, projects, places, discharges, or attempts to make, possess, throw, project, place, or discharge any destructive device: (1)  Commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.084 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (4)  "Destructive device" means any bomb, grenade, mine, rocket, missile, pipebomb, or similar device containing an explosive, incendiary, or poison gas and includes any frangible container filled with an explosive, incendiary, explosive gas, or expanding gas, which is designed or so constructed as to explode by such filler and is capable of causing bodily harm or property damage; any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled; any device declared a destructive device by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; any type of weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of any explosive and which has a barrel with a bore of one-half inch or more in diameter; and ammunition for such destructive devices, but not including shotgun shells or any other ammunition designed for use in a firearm other than a destructive device. "Destructive device" does not include: (a)  A device which is not designed, redesigned, used, or intended for use as a weapon; (b)  Any device, although originally designed as a weapon, which is redesigned so that it may be used solely as a signaling, line-throwing, safety, or similar device; (c)  Any shotgun other than a short-barreled shotgun; or (d)  Any nonautomatic rifle (other than a short-barreled rifle) generally recognized or particularly suitable for use for the hunting of big game. (5)  "Explosive" means any chemical compound or mixture that has the property of yielding readily to combustion or oxidation upon application of heat, flame, or shock, including but not limited to dynamite, nitroglycerin, trinitrotoluene, or ammonium nitrate when combined with other ingredients to form an explosive mixture, blasting caps, and detonators;

tag

WHY IS TANNERITE LEGAL? Answer: Manufacturing is a commerce issue governed by the feds. Page 58 CFR 5400.7 General Q&A Section, new edition: #36. When is a Federal manufacturing license required? "A manufacturer's license is needed ONLY by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosives materials for SALE, DISTRIBUTION, or for BUSINESS use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, NON-commercial use would not need a license."

Quoted: Come the Revolution, the attorneys git it first. OK?

We'll spare the ones already on ARFCOM 'cause they're cool AND they can represent us in court if the revolution goes horribly wrong.

tag, for more time to read it all.

You can be CHARGED with anything. Doesn't mean you're going to be convicted...

Specific to the poll, I think you can be PROSECUTED for just about anything. Whether or not a grand jury would hand down an endictment or a judge would hear the case is another story.

Aaahhhh, Arizona.


You can sling your AR-15 and open carry it while you walk your dog around the block, but you're in deep shit if you have a bottle rocket.

If, as I read it, AZ totally outlaws fireworks, commit suicide, wait no, that's wrong.  If, as I read it, AZ totally outlaws fireworks, they probably intended to include Tannerite and similar, and it would be correct interpretation of your absurt laws for an officer of the court to arrest/charge/lock you up.  IIRC Tanner only says his s tuff is legal RE: federal law, he can't and won't say anything about state/local laws.

Tag

... From Mr. Dan Tanner himself today:

I haven't read the site you spoke of, but understand that some folks were trying to say that Tannerite is a firework by definition.  This is not true. I've heard this argued a few times, from a few authority figures, who ended up losing in court.  Tannerite is a binary exploding target, plain and simple. It is no more a "firework" than smokeless powder or black powder. You can legally take a can of black powder and shoot it with your rifle, and it will go "bang", and flash.  But that doesn't make it a "firework". Tannerite will not cause a fire, and is not flammable.  The molecules simply break the sound barrier, causing a sonic-boom quite similar to a jet. Please advise any person who claims that Tannerite Targets are "fireworks" to contact me in person and I will be happy to offer a few stacks of paperwork to the contrary. Good day, Daniel@Tannerite

Thanks for posting that Winston. Good info to know.

Here is a stupidity killer:

What if I shot a 2liter soda bottle full of gasoline with a high powered rifle round and it explodes?

Is gasoline then illegal?  

Does it matter that gasoline is used for other applications?  Fortunately the "law" does not overstep it bounds by specifying

[adam corrola] He said GOOD DAY! [/adam corrola]

Quoted: Here is a stupidity killer: What if I shot a 2liter soda bottle full of gasoline with a high powered rifle round and it explodes? Is gasoline then illegal?   Does it matter that gasoline is used for other applications?  Fortunately the "law" does not overstep it bounds by specifying

it won't explode. It's very hard to get it to do so - it takes a 5%-7% concentration in the air for an explosion

Quoted: Quoted: Here is a stupidity killer: What if I shot a 2liter soda bottle full of gasoline with a high powered rifle round and it explodes? Is gasoline then illegal?   Does it matter that gasoline is used for other applications?  Fortunately the "law" does not overstep it bounds by specifying it won't explode. It's very hard to get it to do so - it takes a 5%-7% concentration in the air for an explosion

But if it (or similar) did, then what?  According to this 'law' (I use quotes because man's law is always subject to change) something that explodes is illegal.

Someone previously used the 'gasoline in the tank' example.

Fireworks are illegal in Arizona??    that is sofa king retarded.

4 pages over "there" and no one said ton......

Quoted: According to this 'law' (I use quotes because man's law is always subject to change) something that explodes is illegal.

Note to self, stop eating refried beans and drinking beer.....

First point: It may be true that by industry accepted definitions Tannerite is not a firework.  But as the attorney said, the Legislature can define "monkey poo" to be an explosive and/or a fireworks device.  I've seen laws that claimed the spring from a full capacity magazine was to be considered an "assault weapon".  The definitions the Legislature come up with is what is important, not what the fireworks industry uses, when they are deciding whether or not you are going to prison.

Second point: Tanner quotes Federal law, which I believe to be correct from my recollection of the orange book, but this just means the Feds don't have much traction to prosecute you.  But you have to worry about the state and even city laws and regulations.  And if you got someone with a real burr under their saddle you might even get a "disturbing the peace" conviction if they couldn't find something else to nail you with.  Let alone all the environmental issues they could bring up.

Third point: I'm am careful to always call the stuff I manufacture for Boomershoot "reactive targets".  We don't use the "B" word in conjunction with our targets--ever.  Sure, our reactive targets use explosives.  But the containers are paper and zip lock bags.  Every attempt is made to minimize any damage these targets would make if they were to detonate at an inappropriate time and/or place.  The materials and design of the targets is optimized for targets and to minimize their utility as a destructive device.  According to Idaho law, the local sheriff, and the local prosecuting attorney, everything I am doing is "cool" in Idaho.  My reading of WA State law is much different than ID law and I have declined to put on events in WA state for this reason.

Fourth point: According to Federal and probably most state law Tanner can ship you the binaries and be perfectly legal yet you are the one on the line if you mix them and become the victim of some Puritan prosecutor.

Another thing to think about is that the ATF has been doing research on "exploding targets".  See this blog posting of mine.  I don't know what this means.

Also of possible interest to you is that one ATF inspector told me they regularly, as part of their job, read forums, websites, chat rooms, etc. to look for illegal activity.  And even though they may not have the laws at the Federal level to prosecute you they can turn you over to the local law enforcement if they are so inclined.

... Very insightful and in-depth report Boomershoot, thank you and welcome aboard!

Quoted: Under the explosives/weapons statute (ARS 13-3101 et seq), "explosive" includes dynamite, nitroglycerine, black powder or other similar explosive material. Tannerite is definitely explosive (it explodes, and it even calls itself an explosive on the bottle label), and would fall under "other similar explosive material".

I think the key to that is the word "similar". Tannerite is not similar to those other materials because:

Tannerite will not cause a fire, and is not flammable.

It may (have you actually tried to burn it?  My guess is that it will burn rather well once it gets started) not be flammable, but the flammable isn't the area of similarity you have to worry about.  It's the explosive similarity.  They don't mention color, density, smell, or packaging either so just because it may not be similar in those regards either doesn't mean that it's not similar in the intent of the eyes of the legislature who intended to regulate explosives.

Quoted: Quoted: Here is a stupidity killer: What if I shot a 2liter soda bottle full of gasoline with a high powered rifle round and it explodes? Is gasoline then illegal?   Does it matter that gasoline is used for other applications?  Fortunately the "law" does not overstep it bounds by specifying it won't explode. It's very hard to get it to do so - it takes a 5%-7% concentration in the air for an explosion

It will if you shoot it with a tracer round.  

Quoted: Fireworks are illegal in Arizona??    that is sofa king retarded.

I think fireworks are illegal but illegal aliens, ARE NOT!

Quoted: ... From Mr. Dan Tanner himself today:  I haven't read the site you spoke of, but understand that some folks were trying to say that Tannerite is a firework by definition.  This is not true. I've heard this argued a few times, from a few authority figures, who ended up losing in court.  Tannerite is a binary exploding target, plain and simple. It is no more a "firework" than smokeless powder or black powder. You can legally take a can of black powder and shoot it with your rifle, and it will go "bang", and flash.  But that doesn't make it a "firework". Tannerite will not cause a fire, and is not flammable.  The molecules simply break the sound barrier, causing a sonic-boom quite similar to a jet. Please advise any person who claims that Tannerite Targets are "fireworks" to contact me in person and I will be happy to offer a few stacks of paperwork to the contrary. Good day, Daniel@Tannerite

Very well said Daniel  !!

Quoted: It will if you shoot it with a tracer round.

You need a 5-7% dispersion in air for it to work. Getting it dispersed is the hard part, not igniting it. See here for the results of the experiments Boomershoot and I did. It took over a year of concentrated work to get fireballs that worked well.

Quoted: It may (have you actually tried to burn it?  My guess is that it will burn rather well once it gets started) not be flammable, but the flammable isn't the area of similarity you have to worry about.  It's the explosive similarity.  They don't mention color, density, smell, or packaging either so just because it may not be similar in those regards either doesn't mean that it's not similar in the intent of the eyes of the legislature who intended to regulate explosives.

I have lit it on fire - it's very hard to get started, but once it does, it goes fast.

Quoted: +1 When speaking to Daniel before via email, he stressed the importance of squashing any rumors we heard and speaking the truth.  Although we cannot control what AZ has to say about the legality of it, in many other states it still remains in a grey area.  The more we know about it, the more we can speak up to make sure we can continue to use this product.

Well said peta. I think to the less stupid things we do with the product an dthe lessstupid things that are advertised the better off Daniel Tanner and his product will.

(ARS 36-1601 et seq), "fireworks" include any combustible or explosive composition, substance or combination of substances, or any article prepared for the purpose of producing a visible or audible effect by combustion, explosion, deflagration or detonation.

Combustion or burning is a chemical process, an exothermic reaction between a substance (the fuel) and a gas (the oxidizer), usually O2, to release heat. In a complete combustion reaction, a compound reacts with an oxidizing element, and the products are compounds of each element in the fuel with the oxidizing element.

Is paper illegal in Az?  When set afire it meets the definition of fireworks.

An explosion is a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases.

Flatulence is the presence of a mixture of gases known as flatus that are produced by symbiotic bacteria and yeasts living in the gastrointestinal tract of mammals. Flatulence is released under pressure through the anus with a characteristic sound and offensive odor.

So an explosion could be a fart.  I want to be there when you prosecute some one for farting and you call it illegal fireworks.  

Deflagration is a process of subsonic combustion that usually propagates through thermal conductivity (hot burning material heats the next layer of cold material and ignites it). Deflagration is different from detonation which is supersonic and propagates through shock compression.

Are Matches are illegal in Az?

Detonation is a process of supersonic combustion that involves a shock wave and a reaction zone behind it. The shock compresses the material thus increasing the temperature to the point of ignition. The ignited material burns behind the shock and releases energy that supports the shock propagation. This self-sustained detonation wave is different from a deflagration that propagates with a subsonic speed and without a shock. Detonations generate high pressures and are usually much more destructive than deflagrations, detonations and deflagrations being the categories of explosions.
Detonations can be produced by high explosives, reactive gaseous mixtures, certain dusts and aerosols. Thermonuclear detonations are believed to be involved in Type Ia supernova explosions.
Are cars are illegal in Az?  Hair Spray?  WD-40?  All of these have fuel are detonations.

This Az law seems so poorly written I do not see how any convictions can be won.  Let alone the fact that the police and prosecutor could be counter sued for harassment.

Make it a great day