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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:20:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 5:24:02 PM EDT by KA3B]
January 24, 2006

Patronizing prostitutes just got more costly
New rule means those convicted face dishonorable discharge, jail

By Karen Jowers
Times staff writer

Service members now may pay dearly for hiring a prostitute.
Under a change in the Manual for Courts-Martial, troops who patronize prostitutes can receive a dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances and up to a year in jail.

“Before now, there was no explicit prohibition on patronizing a prostitute,” said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice. “It’s clear they’re getting serious about this. I think it’s a sign of changing values in our society, including military society. Once upon a time, this kind of thing was rampant, like heavy drinking and smoking.”

The punishment for hiring a prostitute is now the same as the punishment for being a prostitute.

The change took effect Nov. 13 but received renewed emphasis by the Pentagon after President Bush signed a law Jan. 10 containing various provisions designed to combat human trafficking, which is heavily tied to prostitution.

Defense officials had no statistics available on the number of courts-martial for patronizing prostitutes since the change went into effect.

But it applies in all cases, even if a service member visits a legal brothel, regardless of local domestic or foreign law, said Pentagon spokeswoman Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke.

The change is the latest in a series of actions taken by the Defense Department to address the problem of human trafficking. Officials distributed an education program to the services at the end of November 2004 called “Trafficking in Persons Awareness Training,” Krenke said, and are in the process of adapting the interactive training to the military branches’ individual service Knowledge Online distribution systems.

Training in 4 areas

The training covers four basic areas: U.S. and Defense Department policy on human trafficking; the origins of the trafficking phenomenon; detection of trafficking; and legal provisions of trafficking.

Officials said they are clamping down on prostitution because it is the main fuel for the human trafficking industry — the illegal practice of procuring human beings for unpaid work in physically abusive settings and locations and forcing them to stay there.

Most women involved in prostitution are doing so against their will. Even by simply patronizing a strip club or bar that allows prostitution, individuals are supporting the worldwide human trafficking industry, officials said.

The law signed by Bush requires the Defense Department to incorporate anti-trafficking and protection measures in areas following armed conflicts and during humanitarian emergencies, especially for women and children.

Lawmakers noted that “foreign policy and foreign aid professionals increasingly recognize the increased activity of human traffickers in post-conflict settings and during humanitarian emergencies.”

The law also requires the secretary of state and the head of the U.S. Agency for International Development to work with the defense secretary to conduct a study of the threat and practice of trafficking in people that is generated after armed conflicts and humanitarian crises in foreign countries.


Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:22:50 PM EDT
So what are they going to do in States (NV) or countries (Germany) where it's legal?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:23:24 PM EDT
Since when did heavy drinking and smoking stop being rampant in the military? The only time I smoke is when the BDU's are on. And don't even get me started on the drinking done at my NG unit.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:23:26 PM EDT
Bush's fault!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:25:23 PM EDT
So is hiring an "escort" for her "time" still legal?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:26:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 5:34:50 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
I got no problems with that. Not only does it look bad for soldiers, it puts higher risk of STDs in a place where I might have to administer combat first aid. I dont want to worry if the guy I'm saving is going to infect me cause he rented a bad hooker. That'd piss me the fvck off!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:55:10 PM EDT
I can see this being challenged.
Off duty, the military can not blanket restrict.
wonder if the ACLU will step up.
Legal prostitution should be right up their alley.


If it is a direct order, they can.
If they put the establishments on the "black list", visiting said establishments (even) in civilian clothes would be a no-no.

The JAGs will spout on about Force Protection, Skin Trade, Physical Wellness, blah, blah, blah.

This is a loser to anyone who opposes it. (IMHO)
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 7:59:02 PM EDT
Here we are in a war, and they're worried about THIS?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:01:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 8:05:30 PM EDT by Dino]
this is gonna go over like at turd in a punchbowl.

Lets send our kids off to a damn desert run by fundamentalists muslims and then not let them blow off the pent up steam on liberty in ports where women don't wear hoods and flowing robes.

Some interprising madame will find a way around this.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:07:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:35:44 PM EDT
Looking over the card my grand dad was given when he was in the Corps.
It has the "do's" and "don'ts"
Do: salute all officers, observe local laws, etc
Don't: Buy weapons, bring alchohol back on the ship, or VISIT HOUSES OF PROSTITUTION.

nothing has changed.
If you get an STD, your not of much use to the .mil
Damage to gov't property and all that.
Guy in my grand dad's unit actually got charged with that for getting a very bad sunburn.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:40:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Looking over the card my grand dad was given when he was in the Corps.
It has the "do's" and "don'ts"
Do: salute all officers, observe local laws, etc
Don't: Buy weapons, bring alchohol back on the ship, or VISIT HOUSES OF PROSTITUTION.

nothing has changed.
If you get an STD, your not of much use to the .mil
Damage to gov't property and all that.
Guy in my grand dad's unit actually got charged with that for getting a very bad sunburn.



it goes beyond prostitution, they are tying it to titty bars as well.

all of those youn girls with no desire to earn an honest living won't be able to dance for tips from sailors anymore

that makes me sad

Please donate to Dino's Home for Wayward Strippers.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:44:50 PM EDT
I know alot of GI's that are gonna get pissed off .
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:44:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Looking over the card my grand dad was given when he was in the Corps.
It has the "do's" and "don'ts"
Do: salute all officers, observe local laws, etc
Don't: Buy weapons, bring alchohol back on the ship, or VISIT HOUSES OF PROSTITUTION.

nothing has changed.
If you get an STD, your not of much use to the .mil
Damage to gov't property and all that.
Guy in my grand dad's unit actually got charged with that for getting a very bad sunburn.



it goes beyond prostitution, they are tying it to titty bars as well.

all of those youn girls with no desire to earn an honest living won't be able to dance for tips from sailors anymore

that makes me sad

Please donate to Dino's Home for Wayward Strippers.




Well that is just gay!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:47:16 PM EDT
My last XO (captain) got caught in a prostitution sting. He was gone for about 2 months then came back. I dont know whever happened to him.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:55:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 8:56:21 PM EDT by CavVet]
If I had a dollar for every piece of ass just the guys in my platoon bought rented while overseas.......


I could go buy a first class hooker.







ETA: So do the guys who bought their wives have to take them back? Do they get a refund???
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:02:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:05:39 PM EDT by Hydguy]

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I can see this being challenged.
Off duty, the military can not blanket restrict.
wonder if the ACLU will step up.
Legal prostitution should be right up their alley.



YOu are DEAD WRONG. The military OWNS you once you sign the contract. You get a tattoo, you have defaced .gov property, and CAN be charged.

You do anything off duty that brings discredit upon your service, and they can nail you to the wall for it.

That applies to Active Duty, Inactive Reserve, Active Reserve (including NG and ANG) , and military retirerees.

When you take the Oath, you have given Uncle Sam the right to do with you what the wants.

ETA: Why would the ACLU get involved? Service members don't have any First Amendment rights, married service members don't have any 4th Amendment rights when living in military housing, and so on.
Were you ever in the service?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:08:02 PM EDT
I don't see a problem with this.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:08:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I can see this being challenged.
Off duty, the military can not blanket restrict.
wonder if the ACLU will step up.
Legal prostitution should be right up their alley.



You should know better than that. Once this goes into effect it's a done deal.



Originally Posted By bytor94:
So what are they going to do in States (NV) or countries (Germany) where it's legal?



Even in NV where it's legal a service member would face a dishonorable.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:17:32 PM EDT
Wonder what will become of all the juicys in Korea? Does this mean they will be out of a job now? They will have to be sent back to their countries and work in a factory making $.50/hour? I don't see how that is really improving anything for women.

Interesting... Germany is going the opposite direction. Last I heard when I was over there they were looking to start assigning prostitutes to deployed units. They said the reason was they had alot of problems with the German soldiers raping women/childeren in deployed locations and catching STDs.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:19:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Looking over the card my grand dad was given when he was in the Corps.
It has the "do's" and "don'ts"
Do: salute all officers, observe local laws, etc
Don't: Buy weapons, bring alchohol back on the ship, or VISIT HOUSES OF PROSTITUTION.

nothing has changed.
If you get an STD, your not of much use to the .mil
Damage to gov't property and all that.
Guy in my grand dad's unit actually got charged with that for getting a very bad sunburn.



it goes beyond prostitution, they are tying it to titty bars as well.

all of those youn girls with no desire to earn an honest living won't be able to dance for tips from sailors anymore

that makes me sad

Please donate to Dino's Home for Wayward Strippers.




Well that is just gay!



From what I read it's only titty bars with ties to prostitution. They will be put on the black lists and all others should still be open for military.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:26:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:35:16 PM EDT by _DR]

A politically correct Army. How very quaint.

What's next. Mandatory Queer eye for the straight soldier training?

Although I never solicited a hooker the entire time I was in the service (might have gone to a few strip clubs) all this bullshite makes me glad I'm out.

I served under an LTC who while in Viet Nam actually had his medics strictly screen a specific brothel and it's women for health issues so that his battalion could use it at minimal risk. He realized that morale can be a serious issue with men who face death every day. He took a NVA 12.7mm round to the thigh while in a slick, and had a huge hole in his leg to show for it, very noticable when he did PT.


He was a damned fine officer, and was loved by his men and highly decorated.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:50:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
I don't see a problem with this.








A hetero Vet?



Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:06:04 PM EDT
The old prohibitions against visiting the houses dates from when contracting VD was a serious health problem and had other cultural consequences. You caught the clap and in a lot of cases pretty soon the service members member wasn't serviceable. Syphillis would almost always be fatal if you lived long enough. (Now most of the STDs are curable easily, AIDS isn't)

They also didn't allow E-4 and below to marry either.

I wonder how the General Order is going to be promulgated and before or after the fleet visits Perth.

And if it is legal where you are, can they prohibit it? well probably, yes, after all sodomy and adultery as defined by the UCMJ are still prohibited, and sodomy and adultery are legal for most civilians. The question is going to be how it will be charged and punished. I expect most will be Article 15 Masts, and the CO will exact a minor appropriate punishment. One day restriction to the ship or equivalent?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:09:39 PM EDT
Never give an order you know will not be followed. It will just undermine all of the others.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:16:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 10:25:39 PM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
I don't see a problem with this.








A hetero Vet?




Closest thing to being a vet was ROTC. And I am straight, thanks for asking.

I just don't see how if the military's interesting definition of sodomy and adultery are UCMJ-able that soliciting prostitutes isn't. Here, in the regular world, we consider Johns to be about on the same level as the whores themselves. How is soliciting prostitutes consistent with honorable service? Or is it "anything goes" as long as it's done for morale reasons?

The way I see it, if you can't control your gun, then you probably have no business carrying a rifle.

ETA: It's a good thing ROTC didn't work out for me, I would have made an unpopular officer I think.

ETA2: For all you pro-prostitution for soliders guys, can we at least compromise that it's only okay if you're not married and it's only missionary position? I mean, at least that might be consistent with the rest of the UCMJ.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:17:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
I don't see a problem with this.








A hetero Vet?






What in the hell is the world comming to?

Now thats just plain stupid.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:38:13 PM EDT
It kind of takes the fun out of being one of the troops.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:53:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Boom_Stick:
I got no problems with that. Not only does it look bad for soldiers, it puts higher risk of STDs in a place where I might have to administer combat first aid. I dont want to worry if the guy I'm saving is going to infect me cause he rented a bad hooker. That'd piss me the fvck off!



Just FYI, they tried a similar tactic after WWII in the Pacific. Same idea, same rule. Anyone who got caught with a hooker got punished. The major result was that lots of guys caught VD but never reported it because they were afraid of being punished and got really sick. The military solved the problem by establishing semi-approved brothels with military health checks.

It doesn't matter what you try to ban. If guys are often in a foreign land, away from their girlfriends and any normal civilization, and they wake up with a hard-on every morning, and there is a local village full of women who want the income, then no law is going to stop nature.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:05:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:17:02 PM EDT
This all started in the late 80's. we had a huge influx of Jesus Freaks and goodie two shoes lefties in the military. First they started bitching that america's children were buying Playboy and Penthouse at the BX. Then on my base they started stationing SP's in the NCO club parking lot. If you walked out with car keys in your pockets after having drank a few beers, they arrested you for DWI. Before you even found your car. If you were smart enough to bitch, they got you for drunk on station. America's children should not have beers. Then smoking, then cussing, hell for a while you had to have a cholestrol test to make sure we eat healthy. It must be getting time to retire from this shit.

On my last active duty base they started in on guys with roommates under 21, if you brought a beer home and you had a "minor" roommate, they could charge you with all sorts of crap. Sad, when you are 19 you can have an anti-tank weapon or heavy machinegun but god forbid you have a fucking beer.

So ten years later. Anything you say, including any form of bad language is a crime, no drinking, no smoking, no fucking, no porn, no red meat. If you ask the wrong woman out, it is sexual harassment and you can get jail. If you get caught flogging the dog,,,,they probably article 15 you for that too. Take heavens, its ok for meat gazing homos to join and sit in the shower,,licking their lips as they admire your ass.

Now, they some how proclaim that if you are in the military you are trafficking in human slaves. First you get blamed for every problem in the world, then you get tasked with saving the fucking world and as a reward, they blame every problem in the world on the military. I wonder why they have trouble recruiting intelligent hard working people.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:20:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:27:35 PM EDT
Ruining the military experience if you ask me. Cant get drunk and unruly, cant bang sluts with your hard earned cash, cant use profanity, cant use physical aggression as a form of corrective training; makes me sick.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 12:08:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bytor94:
So what are they going to do in States (NV) or countries (Germany) where it's legal?




But it applies in all cases, even if a service member visits a legal brothel, regardless of local domestic or foreign law, said Pentagon spokeswoman Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke.


Is that big enough so that you can read it this time, or do I need to make it bigger.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 4:30:48 AM EDT
An order like this would have caused a mutiny when I was in the Corps.

The sole reason the vast majority of guys wanted to go on a West-Pac cruise was for the exotic asian hookers. That went for the officers too.

It's obvious that the posters who think this is a good thing were never a military member (pun intended) on a long deployment. Or single at home base for that matter.

I'm not saying that it should be institutionally encouraged, but should remain "decriminalized" so to speak.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:05:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bytor94:
So what are they going to do in States (NV) or countries (Germany) where it's legal?



It would still be a UCMJ violation.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:07:48 AM EDT
What are all the guys in Korea at Camp Castle, Camp Giant, Camp Casey, etc going to do with their time off now?
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:08:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Here we are in a war, and they're worried about THIS?



Yes.

And we should be.

There is a growing sex slavery problem in the world. It has always been a problem, but is getting far worse.

Ever seen an 8 year old offered up as a prostitute? It happens in lots of places, and US soldiers should have no part in it.

The adult prostitutes aren't in much better condition, as most of them are there against their will as well, paying off "debts" or the like.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PaDanby:
The old prohibitions against visiting the houses dates from when contracting VD was a serious health problem and had other cultural consequences. You caught the clap and in a lot of cases pretty soon the service members member wasn't serviceable. Syphillis would almost always be fatal if you lived long enough. (Now most of the STDs are curable easily, AIDS isn't)



Indeed.

In fact, some commanders got prostitutes that were paid by the military. The military tested them and kept them clean.

I should point out that this was done for black units, as some of the commanders didn't think they were capable of the moral restraint white units were.

It ain't pretty, but it is history.


Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:46:05 AM EDT
WHAT...NO HOOKERS???

What is this pussified world coming to?

Hong Kong
Singapore
Kaioshung
Subic
Ac­apulco
San Juan
Sasebo
Yokosuka
Kowloon
San Diego
Norfolk
Long Beach
Pahttiah Beach

This has to be a joke. I gotta go check Snopes...

What in hell is a sailor to do?
<<Oh wait...THAT's why they have wimminz serving in ships now!>>
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 5:49:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Here we are in a war, and they're worried about THIS?



Yes.

And we should be.

There is a growing sex slavery problem in the world. It has always been a problem, but is getting far worse.

Ever seen an 8 year old offered up as a prostitute? It happens in lots of places, and US soldiers should have no part in it.

The adult prostitutes aren't in much better condition, as most of them are there against their will as well, paying off "debts" or the like.



Oh, and banning our troops from going with ADULTS is going to solve the problem?

Give me a fucking break.

Children are, and have always been, off-limits.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 7:47:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh, and banning our troops from going with ADULTS is going to solve the problem?

Give me a fucking break.

Children are, and have always been, off-limits.



Sex slaves can be adults as well as children, and the money paid for adult hookers often goes to the same people making sex slaves out of children.

US troops should not be contributing to that sort of activity. Period.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:20:15 AM EDT
Heavy drinking and whore mongering were glamourized even during boot camp, back in the eighties. The level of debauchery was pretty high (I think someone just put out a movie about this?) back then. Subic Bay and Pattaya Beach were our spiritual headquarters. Marrying your favorite prostitute from overseas was quite common.

In a few short years, drinking and driving became a big deal, due no doubt by the growing political clout of groups like MAD. Nowadays, the clubs on base are practically deserted.

Not long after, the Tailhook scandal broke, and efforts were made to radically change our corporate culture. Practically overnight, pornography and "sexual harassment" became a big deal. As an interesting side note, my duties at the time including driving the Tailhook suspects to their interrogations every day (this was in El Toro). That is a story in and of itself..

Not much longer after Tailhook, a scandal broke involving hazing. Now we can't even abuse each other. What is this world coming to? I personally have had someone break their hand on my shoulder, during the traditional (used to be, anyway) "pinning" ritual. That was back in the 80's. If that were to have happened nowadays, both the abuser and the abusee would be in a lot of trouble.

Nowadays, even uttering a non-PC thought can cause one a bit of grief. If I was to mention some things that I have witnessed personally, few people would believe me. Just too outlandish..
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:46:47 AM EDT

Heavy drinking and whore mongering were glamourized even during boot camp, back in the eighties. The level of debauchery was pretty high (I think someone just put out a movie about this?) back then. Subic Bay and Pattaya Beach were our spiritual headquarters. Marrying your favorite prostitute from overseas was quite common



CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!!
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:49:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Sex slaves can be adults as well as children, and the money paid for adult hookers often goes to the same people making sex slaves out of children.



I never saw, nor heard, of any children being used as sex slaves anywhere near any of the posts where I was stationed and it would be a stretch to figure that the local whorehouses were part of any grander conspiracy.


US troops should not be contributing to that sort of activity. Period.


Yeah, the troops should not be visiting hookers. Good luck with that.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:51:51 AM EDT

Heavy drinking and whore mongering were glamourized even during boot camp, back in the INSERT DECADE OF YOUR CHOICE The level of debauchery was pretty high (I think someone just put out a movie about this?) back then. Subic Bay and Pattaya Beach were our spiritual headquarters. Marrying your favorite prostitute from overseas was quite common


Fixed it. Same places for fun, even.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 8:56:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Oh, and banning our troops from going with ADULTS is going to solve the problem?

Give me a fucking break.

Children are, and have always been, off-limits.



Sex slaves can be adults as well as children, and the money paid for adult hookers often goes to the same people making sex slaves out of children.

US troops should not be contributing to that sort of activity. Period.



So how does that apply to, say, Nevada, where it's legal?

Our troops shouldn't be contributing to questionable regimes, either. Better cancel all liberty and leave in France and throughout the ME, too.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:00:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:15:03 AM EDT
Damn! Now there are rules of engagement on rented poontang.
Link Posted: 1/25/2006 9:32:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Here we are in a war, and they're worried about THIS?


I agree. However, the same can be said of almost anything we hear related to "cracking down" on the troops. Next thing you know, they'll say that war tropies are a no-no, as well as heavy drinking and smoking. Oops, wait:


“I think it’s a sign of changing values in our society, including military society. Once upon a time, this kind of thing was rampant, like heavy drinking and smoking.”

BTDT, and coming soon to a base or combat zone near you, respectively.
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