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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:28:04 PM EDT
i think it sucks
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:35:32 PM EDT
I am a classroom teacher. Our district is mostly black, hispanic and white trash. The students have been coming to school for years without any ambition, discipline, or interest.

Very few of my students read anything on their own, let alone a book. They get all of their non-school education from BET, MTV, VH1, and the networks.

The boys have very few skills nor seem to have a drive to acquire any.

The girls dress like hookers and like the boys, think sex is the purpose of life.

We take these kids, thousands of them, and prepare an unusually large percentage of them to enter the workforce in some form or fashion. Just as it has always been, some will amount to nothing and others will be wildly successful. Most of them will be average as is most of the population of the US.

Most of my fellow teachers are dedicated. They care deeply for their students and work hard to educate a population that is for the most part unwilling to learn much.

Public schools for the most part do a remarkable job, given the quality of young people we must accept.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:38:46 PM EDT
I went to private school except for 6 months in the 3rd grade while my family was in transition. If I were a parent, I wouldn't put my children in public school...due to the atmosphere you stated.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:48:59 PM EDT
My wife is a public school teacher. You want to fix the schools? We'd go a long way towards a functioning public school system if we concentrated on repairing the family unit first. You'll never improve much until this happens ...

What's eaten away at the family unit? Social liberalism.

My wife had a student in crisis at the high school she teaches at. Wife calls kid's mother ... Mother responds, "I'd love to help you but I have problems of my own right now."

I can tell you story, after story, after story, after story ...
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:50:25 PM EDT
I need to add that repairing the family unit will take time. A short term fix would be school vouchers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:55:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks

+1000

I hold the blame in two places: The teacher's unions, specifically the influx of socialist and idiot teachers into management-level positions, and the parents who A) didn't pay attention, or B) don't contrubute to their children's education, or C) don't give a damn or any combination of A, B, and C.

Now we've got an entrenched "education" bureaucracy mostly interested in tenure and benefits, with actual education coming dead last, and parents who look at the school system as "free day care" and who actively oppose any attempt that the school systems make at actually disciplining their "little darlings" so that the rest of the class can actually spend any time learning. As a result, the teachers (the few good ones) spend most of their time filling out paperwork, trying to control unruly classrooms, teaching mandated crap like sex-ed, and "teaching for tests" instead of trying to get kids to learn - and most parents think this is the way it's supposed to be. After all, by now it's the way they were "educated."
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:57:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fatk1d:
My wife is a public school teacher. You want to fix the schools? We'd go a long way towards a functioning public school system if we concentrated on repairing the family unit first. You'll never improve much until this happens ...

What's eaten away at the family unit? Social liberalism.

My wife had a student in crisis at the high school she teaches at. Wife calls kid's mother ... Mother responds, "I'd love to help you but I have problems of my own right now."

I can tell you story, after story, after story, after story ...



This shit is the only justification I can find for abortion. With legal abortion, irresponsible people will have less kids draggin down the system, with the ancilliary benefit of slowly reducing the liberal population...

Please do not turn this thread into an abortion thread. My statement is purely my opinion and is not open for debate (except with myself).

In many cities it costs more the educate the average student in a public school than a private school. In portland, it costs roughly $10,000 per student, per year, and the teachers seem to spend most of their time complaining they need more funding.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 3:59:39 PM EDT
Lot's of folks blame public schools .... I blame parents ....

I have a 5 year old in Public Kindergarten ... he knows that homework and doing well in school is not an option .. it is a requirement. Obeying the rules and staying out of trouble is not an option .. it's a requirement. He gets spanked if needed ... although it rarely is. Start them young and they will excel .....

Lazy parents love to blame the schools and teachers .... but lazy parents raise lazy kids ...
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:01:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 4:02:51 PM EDT by fla556guy]
Too many damn mexicans. I'm not talking legal, naturalized mexicans...I mean illegals. Also, they keep moving the school district bounderies around here. Now you got upper class and middle class being forced to go to school with low income and such. What is this supposed to achieve? Making the only promising group of kids stupid so that nobody can achieve anything and maybe the low income white trash, mexican population can get a leg up? How is this good for the country? It would be one thing to improve the quality of education in the old school boundries, but upper and middle class move to neighboorhoods that have good schools (if they have kids) for a reason, then after they spend the $ to get a house in that area, you change it (happened to my nephew) so that that same upper/middle class neighboorhood is now in a ghetto school.....EFFING EFFED UP.

Also, parents are to blame, for their kids having no discipline, and they are also to blame for the above.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:02:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KBaker:

As a result, the teachers (the few good ones) spend most of their time filling out paperwork, trying to control unruly classrooms, teaching mandated crap like sex-ed, and "teaching for tests" instead of trying to get kids to learn - and most parents think this is the way it's supposed to be. After all, by now it's the way they were "educated."



WhatwhatWHAT!? Teach for test? The teachers are always talking about how teaching is such a noble profession and they are the best in the business and how uncompromising in their values.

'Tis not a really big deal: if a student doesn't want to learn, they don't have to. As long as they do their best. Besides, that's what welfare is for.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:02:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:04:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
What do yall think of current days public school system?



I honestly do not understand the question.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:05:54 PM EDT
In the district I attend? Fine, except for the overhyped anti-gang actions (certain colors of clothing banned, ANY non-religious hat banned on school grounds, even outside, cannot be in the library, even after school, without a pass from a teacher... etc.)
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:06:33 PM EDT
what do you think about today's public school system
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:08:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 4:08:57 PM EDT by david_g17]

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
What do yall think of current days public school system?



I honestly do not understand the question.


yo, what it is, is he say "dem schools off da hizzle fo shizzle, ey G?"
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:09:37 PM EDT
The problem with out education system is it is based on an agrarian economy that can travel at the most at 15 MPH. Horseback, if you care. We tried to "fix" it with school bussing in the 70's only that was in itself a failure because there still wasn't any CHOICE.

The only "choice" is geographically mandated. You move where the good schools are. And this causes other problems...

Get rid of the district based tax system. Force districts to recruit students, of which they are paid IF AND ONLY IF the system educates.


The school system is antiquated and needs complete change BUT the centuries of neglect have cause the rise of administrators and bureaucrats who will resist change to their dying gasps.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:14:07 PM EDT
Where I lived in NJ before college, the public schools are among the best in the nation.

However, I have been enrolled in other public schools that were true shitholes.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:14:18 PM EDT
Oh, I forgot to add: Stop teaching for damn tests.....education is not about learning how to pass a damn test. It's about learning so that you can suceed in life, not pass some test that a buerocrat says is important. This teaching for test idea spawned out of the idea that all kids need to have the same level of education when they graduate.

When I grew up, it was you got what you worked for. If you earned a 4.0 you got accepted to collages and maybe got a scholarship. You graduated highschool. If you didn't pass, you didn't graduate. Simple. It was a life lesson. You reap the reward of your hard work, or lack thereof. All of this probably spawns from the idea that lower class kids are not as well prepaired as upper/middle. Well....NO SHIT. Upper class kids are most likely going to private school, and middle class are probably going to a good public school. Lower class it's hit or miss, but instead of messing up the lifes of people who already have what it takes to suceed, why not work more on those who need help? Fire teachers that don't teach well. Teach the exact same curriculum at every school (take the one from the best public school and teach it throughout the rest of the state from K-12. Don't teach for test. Don't give handouts, etc. If a kid is failing, offer them help and show them why they should apply themselves. Offer tutoring programs. DON"T MESS UP OTHER PEOPLE"S LIVES THAT WORK HARD TO GIVE THEIR KIDS THE BEST ADVANTAGE THEY CAN).
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:14:23 PM EDT
VOUCHERS!!!

Get rid of Public Government Schools.

Make schools competitive instead of frozen monopolies. Let the money follow the child and see how fast the act straightens up. Cut about 75% of the administration for starters, including their 100% zweo out-of-pocket totally-funded retirement and insurance plans, then cut the hell out of unnecessary extracurricular activities and then only resume programs as the budget allows. We have proven that we could take ALL tax dollars, including national defense and highway funds, pour it all into education, and the bloated .gov system would find some way to whine for more.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:22:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken


Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:25:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?

Just because the majority of them are average or crappy doesn't mean every single one needs to be completely destroyed.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:26:59 PM EDT
It sucks.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:27:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


There's your answer.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:31:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 4:32:20 PM EDT by ErinGirl]

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Upper class kids are most likely going to private school, and middle class are probably going to a good public school. Lower class it's hit or miss, but instead of messing up the lifes of people who already have what it takes to suceed, why not work more on those who need help?



My parents were very average, at times, we were poor. They sacrificed to put all of their children (5 of us) through private school. They were never sorry. As an adult, I'm grateful that they thought enough to give us the best education possible.

My parents? Both children of alcoholic parents that grew up in the slums. My Dad went to the 6th grade, got his GED at 40 and earned a college degree. My mother went to the 10th grade and got married. My Dad worked his brains out to give us what his parents drank up and never gave to him.

You can do anything you want...you just have to want it bad enough. They are now happily retired and will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this year (and 18 grandchildren to boot).
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:36:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF hat


I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:38:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 4:39:13 PM EDT by SevenMMmag]

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.






Wrong. Some of the better public schools are equal if not better than many private schools. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean that it is good. I for one, would bet my public high school against many private schools.

You are taking this to the extreme
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:38:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ErinGirl:

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Upper class kids are most likely going to private school, and middle class are probably going to a good public school. Lower class it's hit or miss, but instead of messing up the lifes of people who already have what it takes to suceed, why not work more on those who need help?



My parents were very average, at times, we were poor. They sacrificed to put all of their children (5 of us) through private school. They were never sorry. As an adult, I'm grateful that they thought enough to give us the best education possible.

My parents? Both children of alcoholic parents that grew up in the slums. My Dad went to the 6th grade, got his GED at 40 and earned a college degree. My mother went to the 10th grade and got married. My Dad worked his brains out to give us what his parents drank up and never gave to him.

You can do anything you want...you just have to want it bad enough. They are now happily retired and will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this year (and 18 grandchildren to boot).



Your parents ROCK!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:43:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By ErinGirl:

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Upper class kids are most likely going to private school, and middle class are probably going to a good public school. Lower class it's hit or miss, but instead of messing up the lifes of people who already have what it takes to suceed, why not work more on those who need help?



My parents were very average, at times, we were poor. They sacrificed to put all of their children (5 of us) through private school. They were never sorry. As an adult, I'm grateful that they thought enough to give us the best education possible.

My parents? Both children of alcoholic parents that grew up in the slums. My Dad went to the 6th grade, got his GED at 40 and earned a college degree. My mother went to the 10th grade and got married. My Dad worked his brains out to give us what his parents drank up and never gave to him.

You can do anything you want...you just have to want it bad enough. They are now happily retired and will celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this year (and 18 grandchildren to boot).



Your parents ROCK!



Yes, they do! They are truly awesome. I'm blessed to have them still alive and well.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:44:43 PM EDT
Waste of time.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:44:48 PM EDT
as you can see i dont post much but i had to chime in on this one.
i am s 2nd year teacher at a great public school, i am young and i love what i do there. it is hard to say what is wrong with the "system" because every district deals with its own problems. You can't just say it's the parents, or its the teachers, or administration. There are all kinds of things that have problems and most are getting worse.
If you have a student that doesn't want to learn and the parents don't feel that what you teach (or even believe in the value of school) is important then there isn't a whole hell of a lot that you can do. the key is to find out what the student does care about and relate it to what you teach. However there are students who will never enjoy, or realize the importance of what you teach.
Which brings me to the teachers. There are some teachers out there who won't take the time to work with the students and make something click and those teachers should get out of the profession. For the most part teachers look to do everything that they can for the kids.
The administration has to deal with running everything, making the taxpayers happy, and prepare the school for the full implementation of no child left behind. (Which is going to turn every school over to the state eventually anyway.)
I was educated in a public school and i will make sure that my kids are as well one day. I think th best thing is for all sides to really work together, whether that will evr happen or not, who knows. There are good parents, teachers and administrators out there, we just need more of all three.

This is where I humbly step down from my soapbox.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF hat


I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.




he
You are taking this to the extremehr

Oh? Is that why public school teachers are twice as likely to put their kids in private schools?
link

As I said before, performance is irrelavent to the larger issue. Government schools slave camps have no business in a free society. The two are inherently incompatible.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:54:09 PM EDT
For the most part it sucks. In my experience the teachers focus to much on teaching material for standardized tests(which are actually very easy) too much. Most students at have no motivation to do more than pass, so they constantly talk during class, don't do the homework, etc. In larger schools, students involved in football or basketball can expect the coaches to talk the teachers in to giving their grades a boost.

Outside of the actual class room touchy-feelly moms do their best to make sure we all recieve the same education- by making the lowest denominator the standard. GA High School Exam(required to graduate from high school in GA), for example, was introduced years ago with a low standard. The idea was to raise the standards every year to try to raise the level of education (GA ranks higher only than DC for SAT scores). People still fail this test, which as of a couple of years ago tests about 4th grade skill level. So every year you hear the same people say "This test is too hard if people are failing it. We need to make it easier so every one can pass." And every year, the people writing this test accede to these people. What is the point of having a test if there is no real possibility of failure?

This isn't to say ALL public schools are bad. 7-9 I went to a very good school. Then my family moved to Georgia and I might as well have skipped to being a senior at my new high school based on the differences in curriculum level.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:57:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 5:06:47 PM EDT by SevenMMmag]

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.






Wrong. Some of the better public schools are equal if not better than many private schools. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean that it is good. I for one, would bet my public high school against many private schools.

You are taking this to the extreme


Oh? Is that why public school teachers are twice as likely to put their kids in private schools?
link

As I said before, performance is irrelavent to the larger issue. Government schools slave camps have no business in a free society. The two are inherently incompatible.



Slave camps

I have spent my entire life educated in public schools, some crappy, some extremely good. I am the farthest thing from a brainwashed slave, as you would put us.

I think irishguy175 said it well. It's really up to the individual schools to improve and actually take teaching seriously. Lazy, incompetant teachers need to be fired and academic competition needs to be developed. Some schools already do this and are top schools in the nation, public and private.

I see no point to your extremist attitude that all public schools are government slave camps turning out mindless ignorant zombies
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:58:38 PM EDT
I don't have any qualms with it. It was good enough to get me some college credit in high school, teach me what I need to know to get my engineering degree, and still leave time for sports/work/beer. Of course, my parents made sure that I was doing more than just showing up. I guess you get out of it what you put into it.

You can't make people learn.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 4:59:40 PM EDT
When I lived in Va., I went to a private school there. My first year the school was happy to enroll the public HS school's QB, a junior, and recruited him for the varsity team. He only lasted six weeks and was sent back. Why? He couldn't read. No lie. The public school system passed him through because of his athletic abilities and the boy couldn't read. How sad is that?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:20:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
have.



Your attempts to avoid the issue and misdirection puts the lie to that statement. You need only look back and compare the difference in the cirriculum between today and 50-100 years ago to see the extent to which students are being progressively dumbed down. Literacy rates are already piss-poor and still declining. I never said anyone who attended survived escaped a public school is a brainwashed slave, if that were true I would not be sitting here typing this. I would be drooling in front of a television somewhere. That fact of the matter is that a free society cannot long tolerate government involvement in education and hope to sustain their freedom. You need only research the origins of the public school system in this country to understand that the intention was never to improve the intelligence of the populace, rather it was to create an unquestioning and malleable public. In your case it seems to have worked.


I see no point to your extremist attitude that all public schools are government slave camps turning out mindless ignorant zombieshr

Walk down the street, or through a mall sometime. Try reading a little, find out how much time is wasted in public schools on indoctrination: environmentalism, animal rights, gun control, rights for this or that "oppressed" group. What little history is taught is hopelessly biased, kids can't even find Canada on a map, eighth graders in LA don't know their multiplication tables, college students can't get through books that used to be required reading in high schools. The list goes on and on, and you claim that public schools aren't turing out ignorant citizens?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:29:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
Slave camps

have spent my entire life educated in public schools, some crappy, some extremely good. I am the farthest thing to a brainwashed slave, as you would put us.



Your attempts to avoid the issue and misdirection puts the lie to that statement. You need only look back and compare the difference in the cirriculum between today and 50-100 years ago to see the extent to which students are being progressively dumbed down. Literacy rates are already piss-poor and still declining. I never said anyone who attended survived escaped a public school is a brainwashed slave, if that were true I would not be sitting here typing this. I would be drooling in front of a television somewhere. That fact of the matter is that a free society cannot long tolerate government involvement in education and hope to sustain their freedom. You need only research the origins of the public school system in this country to understand that the intention was never to improve the intelligence of the populace, rather it was to create an unquestioning and malleable public. In your case it seems to have worked.


I see no point to your extremist attitude that all public schools are government slave camps turning out mindless ignorant zombies

Walk down the street, or through a mall sometime. Try reading a little, find out how much time is wasted in public schools on indoctrination: environmentalism, animal rights, gun control, rights for this or that "oppressed" group. What little history is taught is hopelessly biased, kids can't even find Canada on a map, eighth graders in LA don't know their multiplication tables, college students can't get through books that used to be required reading in high schools. The list goes on and on, and you claim that public schools aren't turing out ignorant citizens?



Wrong. I claim that there are many public schools that are doing great and remain strong to this day. It is YOUR blind belief that EVERY public school is a "government slave camp churning out uneducated people" and "should all be razed" that I have a problem with.

The brainwashing that you say is rampant in every public school, as I must yet again explain, is a product of your completely extreme view. Of course, there will be bullshit taught at all schools. however, good schools produce educated students that are able to discerne what is fact and what is BS. You believe that every single private school is completely unbiased and godly compared to public schools. That is flat out wrong.

Again, your statements that the general education levels are poor is indicative of the fact that many schools aren't producing results, not the fact that every single public school is a shithole(as you would have people believe). Good public schools can help foster and promote an environment for smart, successful, ambitious kids. Crap public schools can't, and THOSE are the ones who need to be revamped. However, your completely one-sided ignorant stance is flat out ludicrous.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:53:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 6:05:51 PM EDT by neophyte]
Finally a post I can truly comment on.

I am a school administrator in Ohio so take that for what it is worth.

The public does not understand the concept of holistic evaluations therefore we must base our evaluations on standardized tests.

Teachers must teach to the test to ensure success and appease a mostly ignorant (not a term of disrespect simply a lack of understanding) public. The general public insists on comparing school districts without taking into account the varied socio-economic, racial, and ethnic backgrounds of the student population.

I do not understand the argument of brain washing. The goal of a good teacher is to develop independent thinking and many people feel this is a threat to social norms.

Private schools are not bound by the same governmental restraints as public schools therefore private schools can have a much more diverse curriculum and this is why SOME teachers send their kids to private schools.

The public school system is changing to meet the needs of a diverse society. Many people blame the school system for the lack of moral and ethical foundations. In reality it is very difficult to teach kids morals and ethics when it is not being reinforced at home.

I have attempted to make this as simple to understand as possible. If you have further questions, ask and i will do my best to answer.

Take care
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 5:59:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.




... and there we have the problem with homeschools
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:04:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 6:05:30 PM EDT by SevenMMmag]

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:
I never said anyone who attended survived escaped a public school is a brainwashed slave




yes you did...


Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:
Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:08:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
I am a classroom teacher. Our district is mostly black, hispanic and white trash. The students have been coming to school for years without any ambition, discipline, or interest.

Very few of my students read anything on their own, let alone a book. They get all of their non-school education from BET, MTV, VH1, and the networks.

The boys have very few skills nor seem to have a drive to acquire any.

The girls dress like hookers and like the boys, think sex is the purpose of life.

We take these kids, thousands of them, and prepare an unusually large percentage of them to enter the workforce in some form or fashion. Just as it has always been, some will amount to nothing and others will be wildly successful. Most of them will be average as is most of the population of the US.

Most of my fellow teachers are dedicated. They care deeply for their students and work hard to educate a population that is for the most part unwilling to learn much.

Public schools for the most part do a remarkable job, given the quality of young people we must accept.




The example that you gave of your students, reflect the teaching they are receiving.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:24:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TrashHeap:

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
I am a classroom teacher. Our district is mostly black, hispanic and white trash. The students have been coming to school for years without any ambition, discipline, or interest.

Very few of my students read anything on their own, let alone a book. They get all of their non-school education from BET, MTV, VH1, and the networks.

The boys have very few skills nor seem to have a drive to acquire any.

The girls dress like hookers and like the boys, think sex is the purpose of life.

We take these kids, thousands of them, and prepare an unusually large percentage of them to enter the workforce in some form or fashion. Just as it has always been, some will amount to nothing and others will be wildly successful. Most of them will be average as is most of the population of the US.

Most of my fellow teachers are dedicated. They care deeply for their students and work hard to educate a population that is for the most part unwilling to learn much.

Public schools for the most part do a remarkable job, given the quality of young people we must accept.




The example that you gave of your students, reflect the teaching they are receiving.



I disagree. I think it has more to do with the quality of their home life that's causing this behavior.

Teachers only see the kids for a few hours a day...it's impossible for them to instill the values, discipline, work ethic, and respect that the parents should have taught in the first place.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:33:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





Tis, true.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:38:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 7:10:03 PM EDT by Planerench]

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?

Just because the majority of them are average or crappy doesn't mean every single one needs to be completely destroyed.



Just as those who receive public assistance should not be eligible to vote due to conflict of interest, the government should not be in charge of indoctrinating its citizens. The founders never dreamed of a government school system and would object to the very concept. Whether or not a reasonable percentage of the students were well educated, the idea that the state is responsible for education is wrong.

It is the same concept as the 2nd. On principle, the 2nd ammendment is the final check against tyrany. How can the government have the final say on control of it's own check?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:40:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.






Wrong. Some of the better public schools are equal if not better than many private schools. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean that it is good. I for one, would bet my public high school against many private schools.

You are taking this to the extreme



You might want to check how many of the last 20 national spelling bees have been won by home schooled children. Every home school is private and they kick government school ass.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:45:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 6:46:42 PM EDT by SevenMMmag]
.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:48:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By Inspector1:
i think it sucks


+1e9

I'm not married yet and I'm unsure if I ever want to have kids. Yet I have already decided that if I do have kids the only way they will EVER see the inside of a public school building will be if they have a gas can in one hand and a book of matches in the other. Every public school in this country needs to be razed and the ground sown with salt. The system is not just beyond salvage, it never should have come into existence in the first place. It is an inherent conflict of interest for the government to be involved in any manner in the education of the citizenry. No free society can long exist with a government school system.


...that erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, is is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else.

--H.L. Mencken





WTF

You do realize that lots of public schools are extremely good, highly competitive, and actually get results right?



I wouldn't give a flying f*ck if 99% of the public schools were extremely good and actually got results. A public school system is death to a free society. Anyhow, most public schools only look good when compared to other public schools. Put them up against private schools and home schools and even the "extremely good" schools aren't all that impressive. Government control of the education is a death knell for a free society. Government schools produce compliant, borderline illiterate slaves.






Wrong. Some of the better public schools are equal if not better than many private schools. Just because a school is private does not necessarily mean that it is good. I for one, would bet my public high school against many private schools.

You are taking this to the extreme



You might want to check how many of the last 20 national spelling bees have been won by home schooled children. Every home school is private and they kick government school ass.



Yes...because spelling bees are the true indicator of intelligence right?

Anyways, home schooling can be great if parents have the time and background to teach. Sometimes this works great. Sometimes, it doesn't. I'm not trying to go against home schooling or private schooling. I'm just being realistic. There are many great public schools in this nation even if others are extremely crappy. The problem is that you seem to suggest that every single one is compeltely worthless and only serve to churn out uneducated ignorant slobs. It's just not true.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:54:07 PM EDT
Great debate here!

I was amused by the teacher who posted his opinion, with an astonishing variety of grammatical, spelling, and sentence-construction errors.

I was happier to read the administrator from Ohio's remarks; he was at least literate.

I am strongly convinced that the public schools are seen as an entry point by socialists, do-gooders, and other "useful idiots" to effectuate change in American culture to bring about a "post-defeat" victory for Communist ideologies. It's a Leftist's dream - victory without sacrifice! "Somethin' fer nuthin'!"

I have no children, and have wanted none, as I see this society becoming overcome by immoral scumbags from every quarter - I don't want to raise a kid in a tough world when my income and station in life prevents me from isolating him from the amazing array of evil influences that are enthusiastically pushed at us from every direction.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:56:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
Slave camps

have spent my entire life educated in public schools, some crappy, some extremely good. I am the farthest thing to a brainwashed slave, as you would put us.



Your attempts to avoid the issue and misdirection puts the lie to that statement. You need only look back and compare the difference in the cirriculum between today and 50-100 years ago to see the extent to which students are being progressively dumbed down. Literacy rates are already piss-poor and still declining. I never said anyone who attended survived escaped a public school is a brainwashed slave, if that were true I would not be sitting here typing this. I would be drooling in front of a television somewhere. That fact of the matter is that a free society cannot long tolerate government involvement in education and hope to sustain their freedom. You need only research the origins of the public school system in this country to understand that the intention was never to improve the intelligence of the populace, rather it was to create an unquestioning and malleable public. In your case it seems to have worked.


I see no point to your extremist attitude that all public schools are government slave camps turning out mindless ignorant zombies

Walk down the street, or through a mall sometime. Try reading a little, find out how much time is wasted in public schools on indoctrination: environmentalism, animal rights, gun control, rights for this or that "oppressed" group. What little history is taught is hopelessly biased, kids can't even find Canada on a map, eighth graders in LA don't know their multiplication tables, college students can't get through books that used to be required reading in high schools. The list goes on and on, and you claim that public schools aren't turing out ignorant citizens?



Wrong. I claim that there are many public schools that are doing great and remain strong to this day. It is YOUR blind belief that EVERY public school is a "government slave camp churning out uneducated people" and "should all be razed" that I have a problem with.

The brainwashing that you say is rampant in every public school, as I must yet again explain, is a product of your completely extreme view. Of course, there will be bullshit taught at all schools. however, good schools produce educated students that are able to discerne what is fact and what is BS. You believe that every single private school is completely unbiased and godly compared to public schools. That is flat out wrong.

Again, your statements that the general education levels are poor is indicative of the fact that many schools aren't producing results, not the fact that every single public school is a shithole(as you would have people believe). Good public schools can help foster and promote an environment for smart, successful, ambitious kids. Crap public schools can't, and THOSE are the ones who need to be revamped. However, your completely one-sided ignorant stance is flat out ludicrous.



But he is correct. The brainwashing is not 100% but the fact remains, education is NOT and should never have been an entitlement. It IS a monopoly that wastes almost unimaginable amounts of money to accomplish what used to take place at a kitchen table.

Incidently, the State of Idaho has a virtual academy for those that wish to have an accredited schooling at home and if they are not careful, the brick and mortar schools that always need new roofs and fresh books and thousands of well paid teachers will become unnecessary even for those who wish for a secular education. Can you imagine what would happen if suddenly the school building was not required to teach? Busses sitting idle, not burning fuel, one teacher over a TV or DVD teaching thousands of first graders instead of 20, books purchased by the parents and not the state, administrators with nothing to administrate?!

Over half of my state's general budget goes to education not including property tax that goes (75%) to fund school buildings. I got a better education than most at home and it didn't cost a fraction of the $8,000 per student, per year not including building that it cost to educate the Nintendo Commando next door.

My children learned to count to 25 using boxes of shotgun shells. Can you do that in government school? Tell me there is no brainwashing going on. You are fooling yourselves.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:57:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Publius_Libertas:

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
Slave camps

have spent my entire life educated in public schools, some crappy, some extremely good. I am the farthest thing to a brainwashed slave, as you would put us.



Your attempts to avoid the issue and misdirection puts the lie to that statement. You need only look back and compare the difference in the cirriculum between today and 50-100 years ago to see the extent to which students are being progressively dumbed down. Literacy rates are already piss-poor and still declining. I never said anyone who attended survived escaped a public school is a brainwashed slave, if that were true I would not be sitting here typing this. I would be drooling in front of a television somewhere. That fact of the matter is that a free society cannot long tolerate government involvement in education and hope to sustain their freedom. You need only research the origins of the public school system in this country to understand that the intention was never to improve the intelligence of the populace, rather it was to create an unquestioning and malleable public. In your case it seems to have worked.


I see no point to your extremist attitude that all public schools are government slave camps turning out mindless ignorant zombies

Walk down the street, or through a mall sometime. Try reading a little, find out how much time is wasted in public schools on indoctrination: environmentalism, animal rights, gun control, rights for this or that "oppressed" group. What little history is taught is hopelessly biased, kids can't even find Canada on a map, eighth graders in LA don't know their multiplication tables, college students can't get through books that used to be required reading in high schools. The list goes on and on, and you claim that public schools aren't turing out ignorant citizens?



They think because THEY made it through alright that they can ignor the mall crowd and the meth epidemic.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 6:59:30 PM EDT

My children learned to count to 25 using boxes of shotgun shells. Can you do that in government school? Tell me there is no brainwashing going on. You are fooling yourselves.


Did I ever say there was absolutely no brainwashing going on? Of course not. It's pretty obvious that there is, some schools more than others. It's also obvious that lots of schools suck. That's not what I'm debating here.

I still, however, am not impressed with the stance that EVERY public school is a worthless brainwashing camp that only serves to produce uneducated kids. That is what you are implying, and it's simply not true.
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