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Posted: 1/24/2006 8:57:04 AM EDT
It seems US auto makers are going to be asking congress for help to survive in the market.
I guess they'll ask for higher tariff on imported cars, tax break for capital investments, and such.

Do you think we should give help to US auto makers to survive?


poll comming soon.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 8:57:55 AM EDT
Sink or swim.

They survived the Japanese entrance into the US market in the late 70s and they'll survive this.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:00:12 AM EDT
they made their beds, they get to lie in them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:01:10 AM EDT
FREE market...auto industries are not critical to national survival/defense so don't support them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:02:02 AM EDT
Can you tell me what an American auto maker is these days? Is it Toyota with its U.S. shareholders and U.S. assembly plants, or is it Chevy. Chevy made by Suburban in Mexico and has plenty of foreign stockholders.

I am not kidding. In this day and age, I really do wonder what makes some American companies American companies.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:04:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:05:05 AM EDT by SWS]
As a strict, free-market capitalist, I don't like the idea of government bailing-out any industries that can't survive in a competitive environment. But I suspect that the heavy hand of government in general, has a lot to do with the demise of manufacturing in the US.

That said, I don't think it's such a good idea to eventually have only two major auto manufacturers (T & H) for a market as large as the US.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:05:50 AM EDT
After selling American workers down the river for the fucking automakers (NAFTA), they have the balls to ask congress for tax money from the very people they've been fucking over for the last decade? ABSOLUTELY NOT! If they can't compete then, fuck 'em! They should go out of business.

But, seeing as how the Republicans have taken up the habit of letting corporate america fuck it's employees and then get tax subsidies I have no doubt that the US automakers are going to get a huge windfall from Uncle Sam if they ask nicely.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:09:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWS:
As a strict, free-market capitalist, I don't like the idea of government bailing-out any industries that can't survive in a competitive environment. But I suspect that the heavy hand of government in general, has a lot to do with the demise of manufacturing in the US.



Yeah, the heavy hand of government that gave American manufacturers NAFTA and CAFTA so that American manufacturers could build their shit in other countries while paying slave wages is what put the American auto makers out of business.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:10:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Sink or swim.

They survived the Japanese entrance into the US market in the late 70s and they'll survive this.



It should be noted that we are one of a VERY FEW nations in this world who does not tax the hell out of foreign goods such as automobiles.

JAPAN TAXES THE HELL OUT OF AMERICAN CARS.

But lots of "foreign" cars are made in America now, so even tarriffs wouldn't help the auto-makers as much as they might think.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:12:43 AM EDT
make a product more appealing than a Toyota - problem solved.

I'd start with gas mileage, reliability, and safety....oh and looks. I have absolutely no sympathy for the US auto industry.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:13:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:16:25 AM EDT by warlord]
The USA automakers GM, Ford, and lesser extent Chrylers would probably need direct US govt intervention to stave off the probable bankruptcy. The Govt did it for Chrysler under Lee Iochocca(sp?) why not for GM & Ford. The taxpayers are probably going to get stuck with their overly generous pension plan anyways.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:13:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yobo:
I guess they'll ask for higher tariff on imported cars, tax break for capital investments, and such.



Oh, and I love their methodology too:

"Help the American auto industry fuck over the Japanese car companies that are creating American jobs so that American car makers can continue to ship American jobs to Mexico."

They should all be drawn and quartered!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:14:29 AM EDT
Lets see...........mother-in-laws new "American" car is a Pontiac Torrent, with:

engine made in China
tranny made in Japan
assembled in Canada

I don't know what to do.

vmax84

Well, I do have two American cars (Dodge Spirit and Olds Intrigue), and 3 jap cars, Corolla (made in CA at the Nummi factory, or whatever you call it), Honda Civic made in Ohio, and 89 4runner made in japan.

I really don't have the answer.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:14:39 AM EDT
I don't believe they should all survive, but I have issues with letting any manufacturing ability leave the country. There are too many things the USA can't or does not make anymore. Some don't seem important, but eventually they all go towards national defense in some way.
For instance cruise missles need a chip made only in japan. It is obsolete, so only one company makes it. We keep them in business.

TV's are no longer made in the US. There are no monitors made here either. What does that have to do with national defense? What do you think they use to control all these new gadgets? How do they monitor troops and view satilite imagery now? If all of them burn out tomorrow, where do we get new ones. No one here can make them.

Cars don't sound important, but look who made the tanks for WWII, what about the humvee, or jeep's?

We keep ship building alive just for that reason. We could order them all at once, but if we did that the ship yards would close since they have nothing to build in between orders.

Keeping AMTRACK alive might be usless though. Bailing out all the airlines is stupid as well.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:15:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vmax84:
Lets see...........mother-in-laws new "American" car is a Pontiac Torrent, with:

engine made in China
tranny made in Japan
assembled in Canada

I don't know what to do.



Clearly you need to disassemble the car and throw out the engine and transmission, and then you can attatch the tires to the seats and roll downhill.

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:16:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yeah, the heavy hand of government that gave American manufacturers NAFTA and CAFTA so that American manufacturers could build their shit in other countries while paying slave wages is what put the American auto makers out of business.



Steve, you sound bitter. Did you work in the auto industry?

Actually, I was refering to high taxes, strict workplace rules, and enviromental regulations that put any American manufacturers at a serious disadvantage to low-cost labor markets.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:16:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Sink or swim.

They survived the Japanese entrance into the US market in the late 70s and they'll survive this.



It should be noted that we are one of a VERY FEW nations in this world who does not tax the hell out of foreign goods such as automobiles.

JAPAN TAXES THE HELL OUT OF AMERICAN CARS.

But lots of "foreign" cars are made in America now, so even tarriffs wouldn't help the auto-makers as much as they might think.



They're probably looking for tarrifs on imported parts. It's my understanding that most of the parts for the Japanese cars are made overseas, imported to the US and the cars are assembled here.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:17:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
FREE market...auto industries are not critical to national survival/defense so don't support them.



We are supposed to be Capitolists and they are non-essential to NatSec. Good assessment.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:17:57 AM EDT
Fuck em.
They deserve to die.
They've gotten themselves into the mess they're in because thay can't put their damn crack pipes down long enough to make cars that people want to buy.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:18:34 AM EDT
Why should we let every decision on every product that Americans use be made overseas? Do we really want this country to be an economic colony? Wouldn't America be a stronger,better place if we made everything we need HERE? I know that the college econ. types and the free traders will come up with all sorts of arguments why not,but most of this country's problems would be greatly lessened if people had real, meaningful jobs that they could support themselves on,instead of poverty-level "McJobs". Hopefully, someday soon the American people will wake up and determine that America will be for Americans,and not just be a flag of convenience for the rest of the world.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:19:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
They're probably looking for tarrifs on imported parts. It's my understanding that most of the parts for the Japanese cars are made overseas, imported to the US and the cars are assembled here.



Well that would be a problem, because the "American" auto makers do the same thing. Tarriffs would hit GM probably moreso than Toyota if we count imported parts....Unless NAFTA was exempted.

Trying to figure out the exact structure of the modern auto market is difficult these days.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:22:29 AM EDT
What on Earth for? They need to get their butts in gear. If we prop them up they'll keep pushing the same crap and we'll be footing the bill instead of their company.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:23:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SWS:
As a strict, free-market capitalist, I don't like the idea of government bailing-out any industries that can't survive in a competitive environment. But I suspect that the heavy hand of government in general, has a lot to do with the demise of manufacturing in the US.



Yeah, the heavy hand of government that gave American manufacturers NAFTA and CAFTA so that American manufacturers could build their shit in other countries while paying slave wages is what put the American auto makers out of business.




CAFTA and NAFTA did not bring crapp to the showroom floor, and a slave wage to us is good money thier. American quality is certainly not superior or reflected in its higher price (labor costs) which just get passed onto the consumer. They let the unions get out of hand also they are sinking because of Unions and uncompetitive products period.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:26:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DADX3:
Can you tell me what an American auto maker is these days? Is it Toyota with its U.S. shareholders and U.S. assembly plants, or is it Chevy. Chevy made by Suburban in Mexico and has plenty of foreign stockholders.

I am not kidding. In this day and age, I really do wonder what makes some American companies American companies.



Sing it!
I have never purchased a "foreign" car. I've never even gone to a "foreign" auto dealer. But with the melding of American companies to foreign workers, what's the point of that stance now?
I can assure you that when we shop for our next vehicle (in roughly 2-3 years) we will consider ALL makes ALL models within our price-range/specs.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:27:36 AM EDT
My last "American" car (company car) was made in Mexico.

Here in Capitalist America we: 1. Compete, succeed and prosper 2. Fail and die or 3 Hire lobbyists to get the whores in Washington bend the rules for us.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:28:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:29:09 AM EDT by macman37]
Nope. If they can only manage themselves when times are good, they deserve to perish. Just like any other business.

And- how many of them would help the government when car sales are great but the .gov is poor?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:29:49 AM EDT
no
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:29:56 AM EDT
Seems to me that GM raised holy hell when the US gubmint bailed out chrysler corp.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:33:07 AM EDT
best bet would be for them to go into Chapter 11, reorganize and re-emerge without the union deadweight. They could afford to shitcan a few of their designers too (although the truck groups have little to apologize for)

That being said, blindly supporting foreign owned companies is gutting the economy (and trade is hardly fair in both directions), but the whole deal is just about unrecoverable, so might as well ride the crash down in style...
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:33:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:44:49 AM EDT by PlaymoreMinds]

Originally Posted By SWS:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yeah, the heavy hand of government that gave American manufacturers NAFTA and CAFTA so that American manufacturers could build their shit in other countries while paying slave wages is what put the American auto makers out of business.



Steve, you sound bitter. Did you work in the auto industry?

Actually, I was refering to high taxes, strict workplace rules, and enviromental regulations that have resulted in put any American manufacturers' at a serious disadvantage to seeking low-cost labor markets in other countries such as Malaysia and Mexico.



Fixed it.
They cut their costs...but they sure as hell did not improve their quality nor offer a significant price difference over "foreign" competitors.

And yes, I worked as a second tier supplier to the big three, who set up shop in cheap labor markets and squeezed their first tiers so hard they practically puked all over the second tier suppliers who could do nothing but cut costs and freeze labor rates.


ETA: FTR, they are not the only major American companies selling out their country to pay Pesos Paco 1/8th what they pay Dollar Dave:

Small applicances by Eureka (anyone from Bloomington, Indiana here?), Texas Instruments (Versailles, KY members?) and Oster (sorry---forget where they're from) are among the larger names of companies whose profit margins are not those that my give o crap meter is keen on. G'head...lobby for support in WA...may as well finish the blood sucking they all started in the early 90's.



Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:35:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 9:38:18 AM EDT by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By SWS:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yeah, the heavy hand of government that gave American manufacturers NAFTA and CAFTA so that American manufacturers could build their shit in other countries while paying slave wages is what put the American auto makers out of business.



Steve, you sound bitter. Did you work in the auto industry?



No, but I have worked with automakers (as a consultant), and I spent the majority of my life in Detroit.


Actually, I was refering to high taxes,


Bullshit.

You wouldn't believe the tax Dodges that the automakers come up with. Ford for example owns several properties around Dearborn, MI that are unused, and they hav acres and arces of land around their world headquarters and another building (which they recently tore down). Every year, Ford plants sunflowers on these properties (which they do nothing with), and then claims a tax break for being "farmers".


strict workplace rules,


Oh yes, it is so terrible that auto makers aren't allowed to chain their employees to the press that they operate for hours on end, are required to provide a safe work environment, are forced to allow full time employees to take vacations, are forbidden from racial, gender or religous discrimination and forced to pay workers overtime when they work more than 40 hours per week. DAMN THE HEAVY HAND OF GOVERNMENT! The American automakers would be in great financial shape if they could enslave their employees!


and enviromental regulations


These are flaunted with impunity. Especially by the automakers. Ford commonly dumps manufacturing biproducts from it's Rouge Plant into the Rouge River and no one ever bats an eye. I remember one particlular incident a couple years ago, where a HUGE oil slick appeared in the Rouge River. It went on for about a mile I believe. When the news reported the story they made it sound like some big mystery. Where did the oil slick come from? No one knew. HELLLO-OOO! The fucking Ford Rouge River Plant dumped that shit in the Rouge River!!!


that put any American manufacturers at a serious disadvantage to low-cost labor markets.


Yeah, if only American manufacturers could force workers to toil endlessly in dangerous work environments for slave wages, without having to pay taxes, and could pollute to their heart's content. Then America would be a great nation again!


Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:49:18 AM EDT
Dont design crap. Problem solved.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:49:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Sink or swim.

They survived the Japanese entrance into the US market in the late 70s and they'll survive this.



It should be noted that we are one of a VERY FEW nations in this world who does not tax the hell out of foreign goods such as automobiles.

JAPAN TAXES THE HELL OUT OF AMERICAN CARS.

But lots of "foreign" cars are made in America now, so even tarriffs wouldn't help the auto-makers as much as they might think.


before we go on a "fucking japs, nuke 'em til they glow" binge, they tax the hell out of everything. but yeah, they are very protectionist. so are the white countries in europe.

in japan, not only do you need a license, you have to prove to the govt that you have a designated parking spot for the car you want to buy. not, "i park on the street" but "i have a 6' strip of property located at xxx for parking my car."! this is for ANY car, us, euro, korean, or japanese.

i'd gladly buy an american car (a car designed by an american-based company) if it was as reliable as a japanese car. we're getting there for sure, but we ain't there yet. we DO have them beat in designs though (chrysler coming to mind).
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:49:37 AM EDT
Let them go out of business.

When the chips fall into place you will have NEW companies shoot up that will be better, more driven, more focused on CONSUMERS.

What you will see is car companies spring to life from INSIDE the US, that have drive and motivation that Hyundai, Kia, Honda and Toyota had when they came here 20+ years ago.

You will also see Honda, Nissan and Toyota buy up the old GM and Ford plants and start making A LOT of their cars here. Thus keeping the old UAW stalwarts in jobs. Minus the UAW, of course.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 9:59:29 AM EDT
fuck'em
Honda probably builds more cars in the US than they do, and better quality too. They need to learn some lessons from the Japs.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:09:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:
FREE market...auto industries are not critical to national survival/defense so don't support them.



Who built our tanks, Jeeps, airplane engines, landing craft, marine diesel engines, etc. in WWII?

It sure wasn't Toyota.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Oh, and I love their methodology too:

"Help the American auto industry fuck over the Japanese car companies that are creating American jobs so that American car makers can continue to ship American jobs to Mexico."



Good point.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:14:57 AM EDT
No. But every asshole piece of government interference in the market should go the fuck away. Screw Ralph Nader.

No corporate welfare for any industry, but government should get the hell out of the way and let them do business instead of hammer fucking them.

"Seperation of Church and State"? Hell, we need a "Seperation of State and Markets".
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:18:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 10:19:49 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Would the US auto makers help me survive? I think not!

While I would like the US auto makers to succeed they need to do it on their own....
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:19:57 AM EDT
Let the free market decide.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:24:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 10:25:14 AM EDT by 888]
Originally Posted By Andrewh:


....

Cars don't sound important, but look who made the tanks for WWII, what about the humvee, or jeep's?

....



FYI: the HMMWV is 99% U.S parts made, I couldn't say that to any other CURRENT production trucks, my Chevy Kodiak's suspension is "hecho in mexico", they have the gall to install a made in the USA door striker which is a non essential part but the critical components are either made in canada, mexico, etc...

Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:27:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2006 10:30:21 AM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
Sink or swim.

They survived the Japanese entrance into the US market in the late 70s and they'll survive this.



It should be noted that we are one of a VERY FEW nations in this world who does not tax the hell out of foreign goods such as automobiles.

JAPAN TAXES THE HELL OUT OF AMERICAN CARS.

But lots of "foreign" cars are made in America now, so even tarriffs wouldn't help the auto-makers as much as they might think.



They're probably looking for tarrifs on imported parts. It's my understanding that most of the parts for the Japanese cars are made overseas, imported to the US and the cars are assembled here.



I don't think that is correct.

I believe most US made Toyotas have a higher US made part count than many if not most GM cars.

Toyota directly employs 140,000+ Americans (and growing) but there are estimates they have another 300,000 to 400,000 people employed indirectly in the US by other businesses supporting their operations through parts manufacture and such.

Toyota manufacturing plants run at 100%+ of capacity while GM and Ford are around 80%... meaning GM and Ford simply have too many plants and excess employees.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:34:14 AM EDT
Korea taxes the living shit out of anything imported!
You dont see many imported vehicles here either...
Just Daiwoo, Kia, Hyudai, etc...


Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:
so are the white countries in europe.



WTF is a "white european country"?
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:37:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yeah, if only American manufacturers could force workers to toil endlessly in dangerous work environments for slave wages, without having to pay taxes, and could pollute to their heart's content. Then America would be a great nation again!



Steve, you've actually reinforced my point.

Currently in low cost labor markets, manufacturers don't have to dodge government extortionary taxes, plant sunflowers or commit to indentured servitude to produce a product. In America, with the inherently high cost of doing business, they do.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:39:59 AM EDT
I used to be absolutely opposed to Japanese cars because of Pearl Harbor, and Japan's continuing refusal to admit to war crimes to this day. It was either American or European/German (at least the Germans owned up to their crimes) for me.

Then I started to look at American cars. Screws showing in the cabin, fuel efficiency being an oxymoron, reliability leaving much to be desired, high prices for something that isn't better than the competition, the list goes on. Fuck the American car companies. Most of them own part of or whole foreign automobile companies so how are they losing money? Tell them to make a better product and to grow some balls to tell the unions to fuck off.

Hell no the government shouldn't help these arrogant assholes.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:44:43 AM EDT
I give this a RESOUNDING FUCK NO. What sorta help is my company or myself entitled to then if we are going to give MORE assistance or handouts?! Fact is I won't by American because I see no reason to pay the same $$ for something that doesn't run as well and won't last as long. Quality has improved but still is not at the standard of Japanese vehicles. US auto industry has had more than enough time to reform itself.

WHY on earth would I care to help the auto industry? It's just a matter of time before we tax payers are FORCED by Congress to bail out PBGC pension guarantor, which wil make the S&L bailout look like childs play. Why the fuck should I be forced to pay for someone elses pension plan? Hell, the government is already screwing all of us with the Social Security scam and then they are going to bend us over to help with PBGC. So to the auto industry I say.....FIX YOUR OWN FUCKING PROBLEM.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 10:48:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By offctr:
Seems to me that GM raised holy hell when the US gubmint bailed out chrysler corp.



.....which is now owned by the KRAUTS. Seems like the American Taxpayer was screwed AGAIN!!!!
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:14:55 AM EDT
It's kinda of odd..Ford and GM, Floundering in debt, failing their arms about screaming for help...Yet, when NAFTA was voted in, They both tripped over themselves running to Mexico...At the same time, The Japs, bulit plants here, put Americans to work (with few, if any layoffs) at a wages, benefits comparable to a UAW member, buy parts and sub assemblys from American manfacturers and generally build a better product. I worked at Honda in Marysville for a outside contractor (I'm a pipefitter) and I saw how they treat their people, hell they even invited us in to use their cafeteria, This may not sound like much to many of you, But, it means alot when you work outside all day. but I've also worked in a couple of Ford plants as well,we were told to stay out of their cafeteria...or get fired, this came from the UAW, and plant management...Nice people.. The Honda people were treated well, everyone who worked there really liked it, The shops were clean and it was clear they took pride in what they were building, My observations at Ford were just the opposite, Alot acted like they could give a rats less...I'd would've fired them all. The Honda's I see from Marysville are I think about a 90% made in America car...Go look at A GM, Ford lot, see where the parts come from. The UAW and thier stance on health care is going to do them in, I do believe that Ford and GM will file for bankruptcy protection soon, the UAW will have to make a choice.. start paying a large protion of their own health care like everybody else, or get booted out alltogether,and get nothing. They'll fold... But as far as the orginial question, No..No goverment support. At least Chrysler paid the govt back... I doubt Ford or GM would....The Govt. dosen't need to be the Auto making business.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:24:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ralph:
It's kinda of odd..Ford and GM, Floundering in debt, failing their arms about screaming for help...Yet, when NAFTA was voted in, They both tripped over themselves running to Mexico...At the same time, The Japs, bulit plants here, put Americans to work (with few, if any layoffs) at a wages, benefits comparable to a UAW member, buy parts and sub assemblys from American manfacturers and generally build a better product. I worked at Honda in Marysville for a outside contractor (I'm a pipefitter) and I saw how they treat their people, hell they even invited us in to use their cafeteria, This may not sound like much to many of you, But, it means alot when you work outside all day. but I've also worked in a couple of Ford plants as well,we were told to stay out of their cafeteria...or get fired, this came from the UAW, and plant management...Nice people.. The Honda people were treated well, everyone who worked there really liked it, The shops were clean and it was clear they took pride in what they were building, My observations at Ford were just the opposite, Alot acted like they could give a rats less...I'd would've fired them all. The Honda's I see from Marysville are I think about a 90% made in America car...Go look at A GM, Ford lot, see where the parts come from. The UAW and thier stance on health care is going to do them in, I do believe that Ford and GM will file for bankruptcy protection soon, the UAW will have to make a choice.. start paying a large protion of their own health care like everybody else, or get booted out alltogether,and get nothing. They'll fold... But as far as the orginial question, No..No goverment support. At least Chrysler paid the govt back... I doubt Ford or GM would....The Govt. dosen't need to be the Auto making business.



Nice post Ralph.
Link Posted: 1/24/2006 11:30:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWS:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Yeah, if only American manufacturers could force workers to toil endlessly in dangerous work environments for slave wages, without having to pay taxes, and could pollute to their heart's content. Then America would be a great nation again!



Steve, you've actually reinforced my point.

Currently in low cost labor markets, manufacturers don't have to dodge government extortionary taxes, plant sunflowers or commit to indentured servitude to produce a product. In America, with the inherently high cost of doing business, they do.



The sad thing is that you're serious.

Start being honest with yourself. You aren't a "free market capitalist", you are a neo-feudalist. You want to see the United States become a nation where the very rich who controll Corporate America have a free hand to abuse their employees in any way that they want while paying slave wages and forcing their employees to work in dangerous environments. And for what? So that the top executives can reap the rewards of enormous profits and amass personal fortunes in the billions instead of the mere hundreds of millions that they have today.

At least Red_beard was honest when he said that he would like to see middle america be forced to move into mud huts and eat rice in order to achieve a lassiez-faire market. That's obviously what you would like to see as well.
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