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I beg to differ. I've been to the GM plant in Ramos Arzipe Mexico. The town looks like a set for a "Save the Children" commercial. The people who have it good live in "houses" with three walls and a roof. I saw more than one dwelling that consisted of a couple pieces of corragated aluminum with a tarp draped over the top. I hardly call that a "god living". |
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Tell me again why Unions are so great and that the .gov needs to bail their asses out! Chapter 11 reorganization is the only way to rebalance the skewed wage/benefit extortion of the union workers. They brought it all upon themselves, I feel no sympathy.
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You have to take into account the reason that the Japanese (and Saturn too) are treating their employees so well. They are doing it to prevent the Unions from getting in. If the Japanese did not have to worry about employees voting to organize and join the UAW, then I'd be willing to bet that they would not be so generous. I'm not saying that the Unions haven't screwed up the auto industry, becuase I believe that they have. The Unions have gone too far, gotten too greedy and wound up cutting their own throats. But the unions did alot of good too. Before the unions there was rampant abuse of employees in the workplace (especially in the auto industry). The unions put an end to that and negotiated better wages for their members. |
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No. It's a free market - if they can't make cars that sell, then they deserve to die. Do you think we'll get a decent product out of them if they know .gov will prop them up no matter what they do? The only way to make them make a good product is to make sure they know that they will die if they don't.
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well, if they made cars that people actually wanted to buy, that didn't have a tendency to fall apart, they wouldn't be in this situation, now would they?
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Steve, what's your solution to bringing high-paying manufacturing jobs back to America? You know, the high-paying jobs that can compete favorably with China, India, SE Asia, et al?
Higher corporate taxes? High tariffs? Government control of free markets? $20/hour minimum wage? More enviromental laws? More socialism? Let the free markets decide where we buy our cars from. |
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The problem is that the Japanese aren't playing fair. They don't really have a free market, and don't allow the American markets to compete as much.
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The heavy manufacturing capability of the American auto industry is too important for national defense for us to allow it to be lost.
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I am in favor of helping them out. I say we send them some designers with fresh ideas. There is not a fresh looking vehicle coming out from those two. If they made something that I or other people liked then they would not be in trouble.
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Sink.
Make a car people want to buy. Make the dealership a pleasurebale experience. Pay your workers what YOU think they are worth. Let their performance dictate the pay/ benefits they earn. |
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Actually the American public has been propping them up by buying what their fathers did despite mediocre products.
Regardless of how we feel, it is the single largest US industry employing directly and indirectly more people than any two other industries combined. Allowing them to fold would be catastropic to our economy, however artificially propping them up without a clear plan to correct their past mistakes is also a collosal mistake. Fords restructure comes right after the first introduction of a production sell out vehicle platform they've had in my lifetime. Its a day late and dollar short. There's a fix but we won't see it. They need to fire 80% of their executives especially in purchasing and marketing. They have no supplier loyalty in fact their suppliers hate them. Lopez is a POS. Their marketing people are dominated by manufacturing so every car is just like the last one and forget being innovative we'll do a me too. I'd give them money with condition the mangement changes. That won't happen though. Tj |
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I'm all for adding higher tariffs on imported goods, including cars.
Other than that, no help - they'll just end up like the airlines. They'll keep spending, keep driving prices up, and will eventually claim bankruptcy anyway. |
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Yea the point is... NAFTA and CAFTA are a smoke screen it is NOT the problem… and has NOTHING to do with the real menace CHINA. Blaming Ford and GMs problems on NAFTA and CAFTA is just wrong. The Japanese are building US made cars with mostly US parts (more than GM) and succeeding. If Toyota can do it why not GM or Ford? US auto makers suffer from the double whammy of poor/short sighted management and unions with nether the employees or company best interest at heart. For a start… 1. You kill the bean counters and lawyers that actually run the companies. 2. Focus on long the long term not next week. This years bottom line is not the only reason a company exist 3. Lean down management so GM can make a decision and get it implemented in less than 5-10 years. So that products can be produce to meet the demand window instead of 3 years to late. 4. Actually build a product that can compete in the small car market don’t focus on cars with high profit margin. 5. The Unions must be forced to realize the company does not exist as their personal piggy bank. 6. Plants must work a full capacity… just like Toyota does not at 75% to 80% like GM and Ford. If they don’t they go. If the Union don't like it they can go as well. 7. Produce a top quality product… not excuses. Never happen. |
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Tarriffs! If it's crossing a border then tax it. Repeal NAFTA, repeal CAFTA and tax anything that rolls or floats into this country. If corporations want to sell products in the richest country in the world then they will have to build them here. This was how Reagan saved the American auto industry in the 80's and this is what has forced the Japanese to open plants in the US. Americans who want to work will have jobs, workers will be in more demand so salaries will rise, consumers will have more money which will the will spend and invest causing profits and investment capital to increase. Everybody wins by protecting our markets and our economy. What we are doing now is making the environment more favorable for the corporations and less favorable for the employee/consumer and our economy is showing the results. |
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I'll help them when they start making better quality cars.
If I ever got another truck, it would be Toyota before any of the "big 1" truck makers. |
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NAFTA and CAFTA has nothing to do with US auto makers problems… their problems started LONG before NAFTA and CAFTA and using NAFTA and CAFTA as a fall guy is NOT going to help anything. NAFTA and CAFTA in this context is the same as the "usual suspects" in Casablanca. |
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I've always been in favor of the US mirroring the very same trade laws other countries apply to us, such as tarriffs. Not that it'd really do a damn thing to help Ford or GM, but it would help in the job markets that are going overseas purely on a cost basis.
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Tarriffs are not the solution. Other countries would respond by slapping our goods with tarriffs too. Don't forge that even though we run a defecit we still are the worlds largest exporter and you risk hurting our exports with tarriffs.
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I know everything you're saying...I'm a UNION pipefitter....Building trades unions and compamy oriented unions are compleatly diffrent... If for example I decide to do a poor job, call in sick all the time, leave early, fuck off at every chance I got...I'd get fired before lunch... The UAW DID have a place in the Auto indusrty at one time....since WWII, they've gotten fat, lazy stupid, and somehow managed to put in place work rules to protect those who either won't work or who can't perform the task at hand. This is part of the problem. Upper managment deserves it's fair share of the blame as well, many of them are fat, lazy stupid and way,way,way, overpaid. Vehicle designs have been for the most part, boring, and sales reflect that, not to mention quality...People don't like cars that have to go to the dealer to be fixed, under warranty or not. The idea of making a shitty car and getting rich selling parts is a stupid one at best. And that's the line of thinking that the big three need to shake. Honda has quality standards for their subcontractors..they check every batch of parts that come in, if they don't meet honda's quality standards they are warned.. 2 more warnings and that sub is dropped.People will remember a car that had few,if any problems much longer, than they will one that is a piece of shit, and cost them alot of money. GM and Ford, and the UAW had better wake up. |
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Yes, buy as many Toyota Tacomas as possible, they're made in California.
<-------------------- I'm doing my share |
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I think until they can produce a quality, attractive, affordable car, they deserve to go belly up.
I'm so sick of the cookie-cutter soccermom econobox crap it makes me puke. What ever happenned to Americas passion for cool automobiles ??? Not to mention, most all new cars and trucks require a small mortgage to purchase. Six year, seven year loans, high interest rates, inflated sticker prices, upside-down financing, horrible depreciation, etc... I will NEVER buy another new vehicle as long as I live. As unfortunate as it may be for the workers, they too, along with the unions share the responsibility for the downfall of the automakers... Personally, I hope they all go belly-up. |
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Another thing with tarriffs is how can you slap a tarriff on a toyota car made in the U.S.?
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No, it won't ever happen. The government is going to bail out the Ford and GM and they'll continue to operate business as usual. The only break that the automakers may get is if we ever wind up with socialized medicine then the automakers (and corporations as a whole) will get to stop paying for medical insurance, and the load will be shifted to the worker/consumer. |
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Socialized medicine is inevitable at this point, not a matter of if but when. The left wants it, corporate America wants it, those that don’t know better want it. It is coming. |
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Why would you want to slap a tarriff on a Toyota made in the US? You're removing the incentive for Toyota to compete in the market by opening plants in the US. If the build them here, then they don't need to be paying tarriffs. If Ford and GM can't compete with an American made Toyota then to hell with them. |
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Someone mentioned tarriff as the answer to the problem. That is where that came from.
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Hey, I did not know Nissan had a plant in GA. I'm from here. Where is it at?
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Nope, all automobile and other manufacturing should be moved to China. We should purchase Chinese goods and not make anything here. We should have a service economy instead of a balanced economy. I can't wait for the cheap Chinese car to decimate the japanese automakers. |
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I think that you are right, and I think it is going to be a disaster. I don't know about the efficency of other nation's socialized medicine programs, but I'm sure that ours will lose money at an incredible rate. I'm also sure that it'll cause health care costs to skyrocket, taxes to sky rocket and the middle class to go broke. |
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You know, I would have *sworn* the sticker on it when purchased said GA but Google says it's made in TN (Smyrna). I'll have to go dig the sticker out and see. |
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DO any of you UNDERSTAND that almost 1/3 of the cost of a car is because of the LAWYERS and the LAW SUITS that are won against the auto companies? Want to lower the price of a car by 1/3? Get rid of the lawyers! |
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We have a neighbor of ours that has sent back TWO Xterra's with the lemon law on his side. For me, if the profits stay in America, it is an American car. If the profits go overseas, then it is not a American made car. ETA: I really don't care about that when it comes to cars. It is too large of a debt to buy a peice of poo-poo. |
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Normally, I support tort reform and limiting lawsuits. However, in the case of Ford I think that alot of the people who sued over the tread separation issue on Exploders had a right to go after them. Especially given the fact that Ford stood by Firestone even when it was obvious that their tires had flaws. |
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Wow, I never seen or heard of these figures before. Where did you get these figures? |
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Why not?
Reagan already established a trend by bailing out Iacocca and Chrysler back in 1981 and 1982. How can you now say no to GM and Ford? Same deal. Loan them the money but make sure it gets paid back. |
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And if they don't? |
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Government------><--------Automakers "You'd better not do that again, I'm serious this time...damnit" |
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As usual Boortz chimes in and nails it, see http://boortz.com/nuze/200601/01242006.html#ford
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Hell no, the job of the government isn't to make sure companies survive through subsidies. If we really cared about the auto worker, we would demand that the government remove the barriers that strangle the manufacturing base.
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Hasn't that question already been answered? They are going under because 'we' don't buy their cars. America has spoken.
<------Not me btw. |
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I see plenty of big american made vehicles on the road, economy cars too. |
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Just like how they said NO to the airlines!! |
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EXACTLY what I've been saying... People are sick and tired of $40-50,000 SUV's, $40,000 Pickup trucks, and $30,000 passenger cars. |
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NO!
How about american consumers help american automakers survive by buying american made vehicles. In the past there was a serious difference in quality, after being in the auto industry for a few years I seriously do not see it now. I cannot see why people pay more for a car made by a foreign company when the difference in quality does not justify the cost difference. BUY AMERICAN! |
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That wasn't my intent.
Indeed. My point was that the "free" market isn't free. America doesn't tax imports like other nations do to protect their own industries. In the global marketplace American industry operates at a disadvantage from the word go because we are probably the only nation on earth that believes in truly free trade. Other nations don't give a damn and take measures to protect their industries from competition.
Japanese cars as a whole are no more reliable than American cars as a whole. Specific models in each category can be found to be wonderfully reliable, and can also be found to be junk. Take the Accord. Lots of people like the Accord, and it has a good reputation in the market for quality. But just a couple of years ago the state of New Jersey sued Honda on behalf of its citizens who had purchased Accords with bad transmissions that died after only 20,000 miles. Worse, Honda was refusing to honor their warranty and was forcing people to pay tons of money for new transmissions that were often as bad or worse than the originals. Of course, nobody heard about this because the national media doesn't report the foibles of Honda like it does with GM or Ford. Much of the "feeling" out there about "American" cars and "Japanese" cars is just that: Feeling based on information that is no longer accurate about the market. |
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Good luck with that. Government regulation of markets is as old as the industrial age itself. It isn't going away. |
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