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Posted: 1/22/2006 5:38:54 PM EDT
Silver backed coins, hmmmm..........preparing for shtf? can someone post the pic in the article?

No tossup regarding legality of Liberty coins
DAN HERBECK
News Staff Reporter
1/22/2006
www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060122/1068456.asp
Southtowns businessman Daniel Buczek said he has had "no trouble" using Liberty silver dollars to buy coffee, oil filters for his car and other items at a number of area businesses.
But when someone in his family tried to use them to buy beer at a Buffalo Sabres game, Buczek and his son wound up in trouble with the law.

Buczek, 55, and Shane Buczek, 34, both of Derby, are believed to be the first people to be charged in this region for trying to make purchases with the Liberty dollar, a privately minted $20 coin.

In fact, some businesses in the Southtowns told The Buffalo News they do accept the currency.

Liberties, as the coins are called, are viewed by some people as an alternative to the U.S. government's monetary system. The organization that makes Liberties claims that more than $15 million worth are in circulation throughout the nation.

"We weren't trying to break any law," Daniel Buczek said. "We weren't passing counterfeit currency. We use Liberty silver dollars because they are backed by silver, and I believe the American monetary system is going to collapse."

According to police, the Buczeks were arrested after they tried to buy beer with $20 Liberties from "numerous" vendors at the Dec. 26 Sabres game against the New York Islanders at HSBC Arena.

Acting on a complaint filed by a security officer at the game, Buffalo police charged the two men with felony counts of criminal possession of a forged instrument and criminal impersonation. A misdemeanor count of harassment was also filed.

The two Buczeks deny allegations they pushed and shoved the security officer, Edward M. Cotter, an off-duty Buffalo Police detective. They also deny allegations that Shane Buczek pulled out a badge and falsely identified himself as a federal agent.

Erie County District Attorney Frank J. Clark said the felony charges will be reduced before the case goes to trial at City Court. The trial is tentatively scheduled for Thursday. The two men should not have been charged with felonies, Clark said, but he added his office will pursue charges of attempted petit larceny and misdemeanor criminal impersonation.

"I was investigating complaints made by beer vendors all over the arena," Cotter said. "The vendors said these people were trying to make them accept these silver coins, and getting very pushy about it. They were telling the vendors, "Hey, these coins are worth $100.' "

The Buczeks deny claiming the coins were worth $100. They said they spent 16 hours in jail after their arrests and were briefly questioned as suspected counterfeiters by the U.S. Secret Service. The two Derby men insist they never intended to violate any law.

"It was actually my daughter who was trying to buy the beer, but they charged us instead," Daniel Buczek said.

According to the Secret Service and a Washington spokesman for the U.S. Mint, Liberties are not cash. They are not made by the government and are not considered legal tender. The coins are made by an Evansville, Ind., organization called the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code.

"We did send an agent to question [the Buczeks], but we determined this was not a counterfeiting case," said Michael C. Bryant, special agent in charge of the Buffalo Secret Service office. "Counterfeiting is when someone illegally makes a copy of actual U.S. currency."

Liberties are not made by the government, are not legal tender and "the U.S. Treasury Department does not approve of it," said Michael J. White, a spokesman for the U.S. Mint.

No business is required to accept Liberties, White said, but he added there is no law preventing businesses from accepting Liberties for goods and services, if they choose to do so.

And according to Karl J. Reile of Elma, the regional distributor of Liberties, a small but growing number of area businesses are accepting them. He said the Liberty was introduced nationally in 1998. Reile has been marketing Liberties in the region for six years.

"There are business people who like the fact that it is backed by silver. They see the value in it," Reile said. "On the horizon, we see some incredibles crises involving the U.S. dollar. It only makes sense to protect your wealth by moving to gold or silver currency."

Reile identified several area businesses - mostly in the Southtowns - as being among those that accept Liberties. Two of the businessmen he named told a reporter they accept Liberties.

"About 20 of my regular customers use them. They pay me with silver, and they accept silver as change," said Daniel Hyman, owner of the Red Apple convenience store on Route 78 in Strykersville. "With inflation and government deficits, I see more and more people who don't trust paper anymore. Eventually, I hope the banks will accept Liberties for deposits."

"We take it at par with dollars," said Shawn Clawges, owner of Opener's Grille, a restaurant on Seneca Street in East Aurora. "They're a pretty coin, and they're backed by silver. It's a commodity that's going up in value, unlike the U.S. dollar."
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:48:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:09:41 PM EDT by DScott]
Would you pay $10 for $8.91* worth of silver from this man?



* Silver spot price = $8.91/oz.



This is such bullshit.

Note what their website says about becoming an associate:

It only takes $250 to become an Associate. As a new Associate you immediately get $100 Liberty Dollars back, your referrer gets $100 for sponsoring you, and NORFED retains $50 for administration. So you spent $250, got back $100 and are out $150. But as NORFED is opposed to Associates being in debt as much as our country being in debt, we ask you to sponsor two new Associates. And since you get $100 for every Associate you refer, just sign up two friends, and you actually made $50 while doing what is good for your friends and the country! Refer more Associates - make more money.


Pyramid, anyone?


ETA: If you REALLY want to fuck yourself, how about a "$500 Gold Liberty coin" for $650.





(edit: the coins are $10, not $20.)
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:59:38 PM EDT




Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:02:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:
Would you pay $20 for $8.91* worth of silver from this man?

www.buffalonews.com/graphics/2006/01/22/0122coins.jpg

* Silver spot price = $8.91/oz.

This is such bullshit.

Note what their website says about becoming an associate:

It only takes $250 to become an Associate. As a new Associate you immediately get $100 Liberty Dollars back, your referrer gets $100 for sponsoring you, and NORFED retains $50 for administration. So you spent $250, got back $100 and are out $150. But as NORFED is opposed to Associates being in debt as much as our country being in debt, we ask you to sponsor two new Associates. And since you get $100 for every Associate you refer, just sign up two friends, and you actually made $50 while doing what is good for your friends and the country! Refer more Associates - make more money.


Pyramid, anyone?

ETA: If you REALLY want to fuck yourself, how about a "$500 Gold Liberty coin" for $650.




Sounds like a gold "program" someone tried to enlist me in about ten years ago
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:03:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:03:59 PM EDT by DScott]
My favorite is the "set" of three "uncirculated Silver Libertys: one $10 with one ounce of .999 fine silver, one $5 with half-ounce of .999 fine silver, and one $1 with one-twentieth ounce of .999 fine silver"


Shouldn't that $1 coin have 1/10th of an ounce?


Also, what if you wanted to buy more Liberty money using Liberty money, think they'd let you?



Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:10:48 PM EDT
Great in concept / theory, flawed in execution.

(IIRC) After the collapse in 1790-ish of the Continental dollar, private currencies dominated the United States of America until around the time of Abraham Lincoln.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:17:23 PM EDT
They aren't trying to pass it off as government money, so theres no "legality" issue there as the article states. We've had a local alternate currency going here for a decade or more with no bumps in the road.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:17:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/22/2006 6:18:12 PM EDT by DScott]
Oh, and the point of the original post: no, it's not illegal to be stupid, or to prey on stupid people's stupidity, apparently.

I wonder how many people "recruit" others into this deal so they won't feel so idiotic for falling for the "fun" in the first place?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 9:23:39 PM EDT
"Federal Agent", wonder if was one of the whacko titles some guys have bestowed upon themselves when trying to divorce themselves from ZOG.

Lots of places in lots of cities have accepted a variety of alternatives to legal currency for many years. However, that's voluntary on both parties part. Nobody has to accept an alternative. Back in the 70's when the Canadian dollar was within a few cents of the US dollar, many places in New England accepted Canadian currency. Lots of places will use bridge, bus or transit authority tokens as change, but that's because it is easily usable or convertible.

But insisting that somebody take it is going to get you into a lot of trouble. Somebodies been reading too much of their own propaganda.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:11:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DScott:
Would you pay $10 for $8.91* worth of silver from this man?



I paid the US Mint about $40 for a $1 silver coin.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 11:47:40 PM EDT
I'd gladly accept gold or silver coins(US currency or not as long as they were from a reputable source) at spot value for goods and services. Just like I'd take Canadian money discounted at the current exchange rate.


The US mint sells their silver liberties for much more than the face value of the coin. A $50 dollar gold liberty is way over $500 dollars. The value is in the metal, not the decoration stamped on the face or reverse of the coin. Hell, I'd take properly assayed and documented gold dust as payment if it were offered.

"Liberties are not made by the government, are not legal tender and "the U.S. Treasury Department does not approve of it," said Michael J. White, a spokesman for the U.S. Mint.

No business is required to accept Liberties, White said, but he added there is no law preventing businesses from accepting Liberties for goods and services, if they choose to do so.


I've paid for things using non US silver coinage before and it was gladly accepted for spot price at the time.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 4:28:08 AM EDT
So you pay for these in regular US dollars? Huh? If US dollars are so bad then why does he want you to send him US dollars?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:30:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 6:31:37 AM EDT by AZMAN-1]

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
So you pay for these in regular US dollars? Huh? If US dollars are so bad then why does he want you to send him US dollars?



Yeah, I thought this was strange too, also he claims the liberties are backed by silver, is he talking about the content of the silver in the coin itself or is it 'redeemable' for silver bouillon at the represented value according to the spot price of the day? If so, by whom, and where???


(the $20 liberty only has 1 ounce of real silver in it, can it be redeemed for $20 of actual bouillon??)
If these questions could be answered I might actually consider it......
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:54:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZMAN-1:

Yeah, I thought this was strange too, also he claims the liberties are backed by silver, is he talking about the content of the silver in the coin itself or is it 'redeemable' for silver bouillon at the represented value according to the spot price of the day? If so, by whom, and where???



I suspect the answers are: By him, and whenever you can manage to find him.

Here, I sell you this piece of pot metal right now, and I will give you real silver for it at some time in the future. See ya later.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:06:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
They aren't trying to pass it off as government money, so theres no "legality" issue there as the article states. We've had a local alternate currency going here for a decade or more with no bumps in the road.



Interesting. can you elaborate on that?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:37:23 AM EDT
Redgardless of wether this is a ponsie scheme or not, the fact remains that our money is backed by nothing more than faith.
Once the rest of the world loses faith in the American dollar, we are sunk.
What would it take for the world to lose faith in the American dollar?

Nuclear terrorist attack on out soil would be bad for our economy, so other countries would stop using the dollar as the standard.
Or maybe the EU or PRC decides to specuculate against the dollar, or refuses to trade with any nation that uses dollars.

I don't trust paper money - I'd rather have something with an assigned intrinsic value.
Like silver, gold, platinum, copper, nickel, etc, etc.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:48:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I don't trust paper money - I'd rather have something with an assigned intrinsic value.
Like silver, gold, platinum, copper, nickel, etc, etc.



American dollars have an assigned intrinsic value. Precious metals are just as worthless as paper. You can't eat paper, silver or gold. In the event of a wide spread long term global catastrophe, one would be as worthless/useless as the other.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:51:30 AM EDT
Ponzi

FWIW, the Cato Institute put out a REALLY good paper on this a number of years ago.

This is not the one I had in mind, but was the best/closest I could find:

www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=882
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:55:58 AM EDT
Why do people do dumb crap like this ... What's so "Wrong" about using government approved currency? Even if the SHTF, ALL money is going to be worthless. Food, ammo and commodities will be the only currency anyone cares about, not some stupid shiny disk.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:58:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:00:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jblachly:
Great in concept / theory, flawed in execution.

(IIRC) After the collapse in 1790-ish of the Continental dollar, private currencies dominated the United States of America until around the time of Abraham Lincoln.




That's where the phrase "two bits" comes from. The guy made dimes (either he called them bits or his name was Bits, I forget which) with enough silver that two of them equaled a quarter, and people started calling quarters "two bits".
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:02:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 8:05:28 AM EDT by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i don't really see a problem there if a merchant accepts it as payment and it is NOT presented as US currancy how can it be counterfitting?



Not counterfeiting but,

A couple of problems.
The merchant is eventually going to want to use that coin to either deposit in to his bank account or pay his bills.

He will find out that the bank will not accept them as legal tender. He will then find out that anyone with any sense at all will not accept them as legal tender. Then when he tries to sell the coin for the value of it's precious metal, he will most likely find it impossible to retrieve face value of the coin.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:06:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I don't trust paper money - I'd rather have something with an assigned intrinsic value.
Like silver, gold, platinum, copper, nickel, etc, etc.



American dollars have an assigned intrinsic value. Precious metals are just as worthless as paper. You can't eat paper, silver or gold. In the event of a wide spread long term global catastrophe, one would be as worthless/useless as the other.



Bingo! You wouldn't believe the debates I've had with people who insist that gold & silver have "intrinsic" value. BS. Just like everything else from paper towels to aspirin, gold, silver, and FRNs have the value that the parties to a transaction agree they have. I agree that an hour of my time is worth 250 dollar bills. If the value I place on federal notes decreases, my hourly rate goes up. I have decided that 2 hours of my time is worth a Ruger Mark II and 100 rounds of .22 lr. It's all the same. If TSHTF for real, T-shirts, canned beans, and clean water will be recognized as objects with intrinsic value.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:09:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AshNH:
Why do people do dumb crap like this ... What's so "Wrong" about using government approved currency? Even if the SHTF, ALL money is going to be worthless. Food, ammo and commodities will be the only currency anyone cares about, not some stupid shiny disk.



Gold and silver have held value for millenia. People have ALWAYS thought of them as precious, valuable substances regardless of culture, time period, or economic condition. If any sort of commerce or organized civilization remains, precious stones and metals will still hold value. Paper currency has no value unless you use it as kindling to get a fire started; gold has always been valuable and always will be valuable.

I would accept genuine gold or silver coins as currency in my business. My dad often barters goods and services: he'll give you two extra security cameras and another motion senser for a good deal on that high-definition tv there. He once did a complete installation of a security and fire alarm system (with surveillance) and multiple DVR's in this guy's house in exchange for passes for him, all of his employees, and their families to go to a dude ranch for free. Government currency is not the only way of doing business.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 8:15:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Swindle1984:
[
That's where the phrase "two bits" comes from. The guy made dimes (either he called them bits or his name was Bits, I forget which) with enough silver that two of them equaled a quarter, and people started calling quarters "two bits".



Creative answer, but wrong....

"It all has Spanish origins, going back at least to the Spanish currency reform in 1497, which coincided with the Columbus expedition. Spain conquered Mexico, and Mexico had, and still does have, huge amounts of silver. The Spanish mixed with the Mexican Indians, (Aztecs), and the skin hue gradually became lighter. After the currency reform, the Spanish began making the "dolar" or "peso," meaning literally "weight." The peso had a value of eight "reales," and the peso was roughly the equivalent of the German 'thaler.' This became "dollar" in French and English. Got it?

The peso, or dollar, then had eight reales in it, and they became known as "pieces of eight." As in pirate movies, huh? These reales were often cut into quarters or "eight bits," to make change for small purchases or transactions. "Two bits" then, became a quarter U.S. Before the American Revolution, due to English fiscal policies, a chronic shortage of English currency was felt in the colonies, and the colonists began conducting trade in Spanish dollars. The Spanish dollars, "bits," reales, and pieces of eight, were silver coins."
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:06:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 11:01:02 AM EDT by tommygun2000]

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I don't trust paper money - I'd rather have something with an assigned intrinsic value.
Like silver, gold, platinum, copper, nickel, etc, etc.



American dollars have an assigned intrinsic value. Precious metals are just as worthless as paper. You can't eat paper, silver or gold. In the event of a wide spread long term global catastrophe, one would be as worthless/useless as the other.



Gold and silver also have intrinsic value. The coin and its content in precious metal represent manhours of labor to get it from ore in the ground to minted form. It also has value due to its inherent rarity. If it were more prevalent like aluminum or iron it would not be worth as much. Paper FRNs are backed primarily by the good faith of people to accept it in trade as legal tender for goods and services. Precious metals have held their value and been recognized as money for eons and thats why stable economies use them to back the paper money they put into circulation for convenience. Paper is a lot easier to tote around than a big bag of silver or gold. When the US was on the gold and siver standards, the FRNs were redeemable for gold or silver at a federal reserve bank. Remember "Silver Certificates"? They had a "promise to pay" the bearer of that certificate in silver. FRNs of today have no such promise on them.
Real property either in land, precious metals(particularly brass, lead and copper), commodities of one form or another will always have value. Paper money might make good toilet paper if you have enough of it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:35:33 AM EDT
Post by the end of WWII Germans were burning their paper money to stay warm.

During the 70's "Oil Crisis" and "Wage and Price Control" period the government tried to lay the blame for inflation on the oil companies, people spending to much money, it was all our fault. But if you didn't spend your money today on goods you needed, or were going to need, you knew it was going to buy less next month. Even barter and trading services began to be popular.

Don't let anyone fool you, only GOVERNMENTS can cause inflation.

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:53:02 AM EDT
You cna use anything you want to as currency....

What do you think a check is? I provide it to you. If you believe its good, you'll accept it, give it to the bank and later convert it to more goods (by transfering electronic bits and bytes to someone else, or writing them your own currency "check").

coupons? Same deal. Its a scrap of paper with some assigned value both parties trade.

Try a store called Canadian Tire. Thye give you little paper 'dollars' with values like 5, 10, 25 and 50 cents, as well a $1, $2, etc. Save em up, spend em there later...

Local cooperative here prints "money". Its their own local currency. You can sell your oregano or squash to the farmers market, get your funny money, buy a cuppa joe and get a haircut all with local currency....

At one time playing cards were used as currency in colonial north america. how about furs? Hudsons bay tokens? Specific sea shells or beads made from shells? Cocoa beans? Feather quills full of gold dust? Hell, people have even used tulip bulbs as currency!

Some of these had intrinsic value. Others were merely face values agreed upon. Currency is whatever we want it to be...

These Liberty Dollars? Same for them. We can trade em if we want to. I do not have to accept them as payment, but can if I wish... As has been said, these are not US dollars. No one is required to accept them....

Problem: Just because YOU believe in them does not mean I believe in them. Or that someone else will believe in them. We might (likely) will not accept them. Silver backed? If you say so....

People are free to spend real greenbacks to buy these liberty dollars. I think they are being swindled. There may be merit to the claim that the US dollar will tank. However, if it tanks BIGTIME, how many people are going to be willing to accept some hocuspocus homemade dollar supposedly backed by silver no one has seen? Not me.... Thanks, but I'll barter straight up. You can keep the funny money.

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:12:26 PM EDT
Sounds like barter to me, when did that become illegal.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:43:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GilaMonster:
Sounds like barter to me, when did that become illegal.



For the most part it isn't. But in barter both parties agree to the value, sounds like these knuckleheads forgot that part and tried to use them with people that asigned NO value to them and/or they were trying to pass it as real money.
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