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Posted: 1/22/2006 6:24:02 AM EDT
Does the end (maybe getting information) justify the means (torture)?

Keep in mind we are a country that believes in inalienable rights for man.

The CIA was also involved in the torture.


AP Article

AP CIA Involvement

Army Officer Found Guilty in Iraqi's Death

By JON SARCHE
Associated Press Writer

FORT CARSON, Colo. (AP) -- An Army interrogator committed negligent homicide when he put a sleeping bag over an Iraqi general's head and sat on his chest as the man suffocated, a military jury found.

Attorneys for Chief Warrant Officer Lewis Welshofer Jr. said he believed the general had information that would "break the back of the whole insurgency" at a time when soldiers were being killed in an increasingly lethal and bold resistance.

But prosecutor Maj. Tiernan Dolan maintained that Welshofer tortured Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush at a detention camp in 2003, treating him "worse than you would treat a dog."

After six hours of deliberations, the panel of six Army officers spared Welshofer on the more serious charge of murder - which carries a potential life sentence - instead convicting him late Saturday of negligent homicide and negligent dereliction of duty. He was acquitted of assault.

Welshofer stood silently and showed no reaction when the verdict was announced. He could be dishonorably discharged and sentenced to a maximum three years and three months in prison at a Monday hearing.

Defense attorney Frank Spinner said he would decide after sentencing whether to appeal.

"The verdict recognizes the context in which these events took place," he said. "It was a very difficult time in Iraq. There was confusion, and they were not getting clear guidance from headquarters."

Welshofer and prosecutors left without commenting.

During the trial, prosecutors described a rogue interrogator who became frustrated with Mowhoush's refusal to answer questions and escalated his techniques from simple interviews to beatings to simulating drowning, and finally, to death.

Welshofer used his sleeping bag technique in the presence of lower ranking soldiers, but never in the presence of officers with the authority to stop him, Dolan said.

The treatment of the Iraqi general "could fairly be described as torture," Dolan said.

In an e-mail to a commander, Dolan said, Welshofer wrote that restrictions on interrogation techniques were impeding the Army's ability to gather intelligence. Welshofer wrote that authorized techniques came from Cold War-era doctrine that did not apply in Iraq, Dolan said.

"Our enemy understands force, not psychological mind games," Dolan quoted from Welshofer's message. Dolan said an officer responded by telling Welshofer to "take a deep breath and remember who we are."

The defense had argued a heart condition caused Mowhoush's death, and that Welshofer's commanders had approved the interrogation technique.

"What he was doing he was doing in the open, and he was doing it because he believed the information in fact would save lives," Spinner said.

He asked jurors to consider deadly conditions in Iraq at the time of the interrogation. Welshofer had to make some decisions on his own because guidance was lacking and other techniques weren't working, Spinner said.

Officials believed Mowhoush had information that would "break the back of the whole insurgency," said defense attorney Capt. Ryan Rosauer. They also thought Mowhoush helping to bring foreign fighters into Iraq from across the Syrian border, he said.

Several prosecution witnesses, including one whose identity is classified and who testified in a closed session, had been granted immunity in exchange for their cooperation, Spinner noted. Two soldiers who were initially charged with murder in the case also were given immunity.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:27:04 AM EDT
Well obviously he went to far in killing the guy. You can't get information from dead people.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:28:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:29:08 AM EDT
The ends absolutely does NOT justify the means.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:11:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lokt:
The ends absolutely does NOT justify the means.



To what degree?

Many here happily give up rights so the government can protect us from "terrorism": patriot act, searches of bags in subways, etc.

How much more of a step is it to torture people to get information?

Consider that the US has prisons in foreign countries, so in those places they are not bound by the law.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:20:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dance:

Originally Posted By lokt:
The ends absolutely does NOT justify the means.



To what degree?

Many here happily give up rights so the government can protect us from "terrorism": patriot act, searches of bags in subways, etc.

How much more of a step is it to torture people to get information?

Consider that the US has prisons in foreign countries, so in those places they are not bound by the law.



You as usual you miss the point… which was the guilty verdict… the guy will be punished.

You as usual set up a lie with a distortion.

I could give a shit less about US foreign prisons.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:35:04 PM EDT
it's not a matter of risk vs. reward, or how someone may have wronged you, it's not a matter of degree

it's just a simple question

what kind of person are you?

No sane person ever thinks they are a bad person, no matter what horrible things they may have done; it's always god's will or someone elses fault. But in the final analysis the only thing you actually can control is yourself.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 1:46:53 PM EDT
He went too far.
He acted unprofessionally.
"The Battle of Algiers" should be required watching if you seek to understand how to fight an insurgency.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:38:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

You as usual you miss the point… which was the guilty verdict… the guy will be punished.

You as usual set up a lie with a distortion.

I could give a shit less about US foreign prisons.



convicting him late Saturday of negligent homicide and negligent dereliction of duty. He was acquitted of assault.

Welshofer stood silently and showed no reaction when the verdict was announced. He could be dishonorably discharged and sentenced to a maximum three years and three months in prison at a Monday hearing.


So a 3 year sentence= punishment for murder?

I guess it's a distortion to say he murdered a man who could not fight back?
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 5:44:08 PM EDT
We should torture these people so bad they beg to give us information, so that we do kill them.
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