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Posted: 1/21/2006 2:05:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 2:05:33 PM EDT by Troy]
Anyone remember when that giant bank robbery went down in the streets of L.A.? I'm trying to find some video on the net when the guys brought out their full body armor and full autos taking on LAPD and Swat. I think it was the early 90's, but I'd like any info anyone can give me.

Sorry it's know it's a little off topic, but I figured the rest of you gun nuts would appreciate watching it again. I haven't seen it in years, and that was some great news video watching the gun fight.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:23:31 PM EDT
was Tom Sizemore one of the robbers?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:24:34 PM EDT
Funny- that was a good movie though.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:25:39 PM EDT
yeah, good times
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:26:20 PM EDT
It is commonly called the "North Hollywood Shootout"
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:29:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWATH:
It is commonly called the "North Hollywood Shootout"



That's what I was looking for, I couldn't remember what they called it. Thanks, I'll see about posting video links if I find any.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:29:26 PM EDT
That was the North Hollywood shootout; it happened at a Bank Of America in North Hollywood; two robbers armed with a converted HK91 and a converted MAK-90 and both wearing full body armor took on the LAPD; injuring several officers and in the end, both suspects died, one was gunned down by LAPD SWAT Team officers, the other one killed himself.

I think it was the first episode of the History Channel's "Shootout" series.

http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:53:19 PM EDT
The history channel has an hour long show called Shootout and they recently did a detailed show about the North Holloywood shootout. Pretty good show
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:06:53 PM EDT
http://www.dumpalink.com/media/1132660332/Hollywood_Bank_Shootout

Watch it all. Bill T.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:19:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Solo600:

Originally Posted By 04hemi:
Funny- that was a good movie though.



Yeah, that was a great scene to a great movie. Goes to show you how when used correctly, autos can do a lot of damage, much less hold down an entire police force!!! Looked like there were some ARs (or M4s) (Deniro and Val Kilmer) in that robbery - forgive me if I got it wrong, still looking into the differences.


It also goes to show that in a more gun-friendly location, a skilled citizen marksman would have whipped out a high power centerfire rifle and ended the whole deal with two shots from beyond visual distance of the thugs.

Any god damned scoped hunting rifle in any big game caliber would have cut through those assholes' armor like a hot knife through butter.

.308" Nosler Partition + body armor = dead bad guy.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:26:49 PM EDT
what was the final word on those full-autos?

Something tells me they were illegally converted.

but seriously...........what was the conclusion on that?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:36:59 PM EDT
Ironically the movie "Heat" with Al Pacino, Tom Sizemore and Val Kilmer was the basis for the 2 bank robbers. They staged their robbery from a local hotel in CA and the video was found in the room after the shoot out.

I always thought it weird that even thought the two gunmen shot hundreds of rounds - no one was killed except them... Spray and pray...

The whole event combined with 9-11 made it more "acceptable" for the America police to carry the "evil looking" carbines in their patrol vehicles in mostr depts.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:38:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
what was the final word on those full-autos?

Something tells me they were illegally converted.

but seriously...........what was the conclusion on that?



The history channel said they were all illegally converted to FA. They each had an AK which everyone knows but I did not know until recently that they also had an HK rifle (not sure on model) and a 20" Bushy, all converted FA.

I also never realized that the 2nd gunmen (the one in the car) was using his 20" Bushy when he tried to carjack the truck and was firing at the cop car that pulled up in front of him. I always thought thoose cops were crazy (in a good way) to pull uplike that but I found out that they thought they were pulling up to help a wounded officer not to confront the robber
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:41:50 PM EDT
Illegal full auto brought across your freindly unsecured border with the lovely neighbors to the South. The G3 was stolen (read sold) from the Mexican Army. There were two AK47's, the G3, a semi ar15 and several handguns. The assmunkees, Phillips and Martasarauno wore regular vests over which they wore "homemade" body armor consisting of steel plates sewed into overalls. I believe blood tests also showed they were using some highspeed amps too. Sucked to be an LAPD cop with a 9 mike and radio. I tried to find out if Martasarauno was here illegally but never could. No one wants to talk about that.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:42:46 PM EDT
Slightly OT:
Without going back and looking, what rifle did Al Pacino's character use in the "big shootout"?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:44:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:45:01 PM EDT by SelectFire]
www.dumpalink.com/media/1132660332/Hollywood_Bank_Shootout
Here is the hotlink for the real shootout.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:45:01 PM EDT
The .308 was an HK91, not a G3.
It was semi-auto, not full auto.
The FA AR was a Bushmaster.
The FA AKs were chinese.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:46:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:48:07 PM EDT by SelectFire]
Drum mag equipped I might add.
How come nobody was able to hit those guys in the head?
The cops borrowed AR-15's from a sporting goods store and still couldn't do it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:52:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 5:53:18 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By SelectFire:
How come nobody was able to hit those guys in the head?
.




The old being shot at by two crazy and superiorly armed shit heels tends to fuck with one's aim.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

It also goes to show that in a more gun-friendly location, a skilled citizen marksman would have whipped out a high power centerfire rifle motivated 12 year old with a .22 and ended the whole deal with two (head) shots from beyond visual distance of the thugs. Any god damned scoped hunting rifle in any big game caliber would have cut through those assholes' armor like a hot knife through butter.

.308" Nosler Partition + body armor = dead bad guy.



Thought I'd add my .02. Hope you don't mind.

Mike
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:56:11 PM EDT
Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:40:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
...in the end, both suspects died, one was gunned down by LAPD SWAT Team officers, the other one killed himself.




That's the best part.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 4:45:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 04hemi:
Funny- that was a good movie though.



Yeah, that was a great scene to a great movie. Goes to show you how when used correctly, autos can do a lot of damage, much less hold down an entire police force!!! Looked like there were some ARs (or M4s) (Deniro and Val Kilmer) in that robbery - forgive me if I got it wrong, still looking into the differences.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:03:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you?



I think people are refering to the amount of time that it took to get SWAT on the scene. Yes I believe that two well aimed shot from a deer rifle would have stopped two men wandering around in full view with no regard to cover or concealment. The officers armed with pistols sure weren't able to stop them.

For that matter the officers should have had rifles, not, necessarily assault rifles but a Remington 700 in .308 with a 4x scope on it would have solved the active shooter scenario rather handily. I hope that this answer meets your "cuteness" standards Helpy Helperton.

And really what was SWAT going to do? Make a stack and assault the parking lot? This situation needed a rifleman. If he/she was a cop great, they protected and served; If he/she was a regular joe, even better.

96Ag
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:30:53 PM EDT
These two guys were wearing multiple layers of body armor weren't they? I'm pretty sure that the 5.56x45mm round can cut through a bulletproof vest, right? But could it have cut through the multiple layers these guys were wearing? I agree that if they could have gotten a police sniper team there and set up with a clear shot at their heads (because they were standing still quite a lot of the time, from what I can tell from videos), it could have been over.

Also, has anyone seen the movie, "44 Minutes," based on this event? It's pretty good but I hate how both their AKs, the HK91 or G3, and the M16 they had all had collapsable/folding stocks, flashiders, bayonet lugs, hi-cap mags, etc. to make them look as "evil" as possible.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:36:15 PM EDT
I use to shoot news overnight in Los angeles. about 2 years before North hollywood,those two guys were stopped in pasadena,ca. They were arrested because of the stuff found in there car. Body armor,a couple of legal mak-90s,some handguns,wigs,gloves ,scanners,ski masks.stopwatches,and about 2 dozen 30 rounds mags in groups of 3 taped togehter and loaded. The cops held them trying to connect them to a robbery but they nvere charged them with anything and relesed them. The pasadena police didnt want to give back the guns and mags,but the 2 guys lawyers got a Judge to force the police to return the guns. A couple years later they had started robbing banks and armored cars getting more and more violent with each robbery until the end at The North Hollywood Bank of America.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:38:11 PM EDT
Yes an AR can punch through multiple layers of vests. No they were not on amphetamines they were on sedatives which is why they were so calm and took their sweet ass time during the getaway. Yes they had custom body armor which included leg pieces. Yes they were illegally converted full autos which gad been used in previous bank robberies they had committed.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:11:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 96Ag:
....the officers should have had rifles...




Well, we agree on one thing anyway.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:16:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you?


You must be a fucking cop.

Yes, someone with good rifle skills and a scoped rifle in ANY commonly available big game caliber, using commonly available hunting ammunition, firing from cover, would have stopped those two fuckbags COLD.

The cops were pinned down when they tried to close the distance with nothing more than handguns.

How long did it take SWAT to show up? How many people were shot in the meantime?

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:17:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 7:20:12 PM EDT by SelectFire]

Originally Posted By 96Ag:
....the officers should have had rifles...



Well they got a bunch of AR's or M-16's now according to a press release I saw along time ago.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:42:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
These two guys were wearing multiple layers of body armor weren't they? I'm pretty sure that the 5.56x45mm round can cut through a bulletproof vest, right? But could it have cut through the multiple layers these guys were wearing?



I'm pretty sure this:



in .264", .284", or .308" diameter would have cut right through whatever they were wearing.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:46:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
These two guys were wearing multiple layers of body armor weren't they? I'm pretty sure that the 5.56x45mm round can cut through a bulletproof vest, right? But could it have cut through the multiple layers these guys were wearing? I agree that if they could have gotten a police sniper team there and set up with a clear shot at their heads (because they were standing still quite a lot of the time, from what I can tell from videos), it could have been over.

Also, has anyone seen the movie, "44 Minutes," based on this event? It's pretty good but I hate how both their AKs, the HK91 or G3, and the M16 they had all had collapsable/folding stocks, flashiders, bayonet lugs, hi-cap mags, etc. to make them look as "evil" as possible.



yes--full over the lower body/torso too
5.56x45 can go through most BPVs (except for level IVs w/ cermaic)

yes--not a bad movie; i'm sure that the movie (if it protrayed the actual weapons) showed guns that were not "evil"--they were just maximized for optimum utility
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:52:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 96Ag:

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:
Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you?



I think people are refering to the amount of time that it took to get SWAT on the scene. Yes I believe that two well aimed shot from a deer rifle would have stopped two men wandering around in full view with no regard to cover or concealment. The officers armed with pistols sure weren't able to stop them.

For that matter the officers should have had rifles, not, necessarily assault rifles but a Remington 700 in .308 with a 4x scope on it would have solved the active shooter scenario rather handily. I hope that this answer meets your "cuteness" standards Helpy Helperton.

And really what was SWAT going to do? Make a stack and assault the parking lot? This situation needed a rifleman. If he/she was a cop great, they protected and served; If he/she was a regular joe, even better.

96Ag



+1

mojo: i dont know about the folks where yall are at, but anyone i know from around here would get involved in that kind of situation and help take down the BGs
almost any competant "citizen" w/ a 'deer rifle' could have taken the BGs down, if they had access and will to do so

its not how many bullets you shoot--its where you can put them (bigger, more powerful calibers like required for 'deer rifles' also help)
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:55:39 PM EDT
I don't think I would have wanted to be a carrying a gun around in that area during that time without a uniform on. There was a pretty large selection of LEO's out there with varying degrees of experience and common sense and I'm guessing it would've taken about ten seconds for one of them to start shooting at me if I has pointing a rifle out there. Even if I was pointing it at the bad guys.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 7:58:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:


Any god damned scoped hunting rifle in any big game caliber would have cut through those assholes' armor like a hot knife through butter.

.308" Nosler Partition + body armor = dead bad guy.



.300Win/Barnes X-bullet -- Line 'em up! Twofer!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:01:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 8:02:08 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

...almost any competant "citizen" w/ a 'deer rifle' could have taken the BGs down, if they had access...




That's the part I have an issue with. It's not easy to get a clear shot in an urban setting from a ground level position. By the time this average Joe got setup from a decent elevation his target would have long since moved. It's not like a shot in an open field on a buck that just stopped dead in his tracks because you grunted. This buck is running in downtown traffic and slinging shit at you with both hooves.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:25:16 PM EDT

And don't think you're not under pressure in the hunting field. I've HAD guys shoot at me, and shoot at what I'm shooting at! If you don't want to be draggin' hamberger, you have to get it on the ground with a minimum of fuss. That means good, proven hardware -- NO poodle-shooters here, An elk can soak up thirteen rounds of .338 and come back the next day! It also means being able to keep it on a paper plate at five or six hundred yards, and know how to handle 'situations', like wind and terrain
Any elk that takes thirteen rounds of high powered ammo and comes back the next day either has a really crappy hunter shooting at it or the worlds largest bullet proof vest. I seem to remember in the distant pass plains indians killing buffalo with a bow and arrow and I'll bet it only took five or six at most. Less hyperbole and more real info....unless you have a picture of an elk standing with 13 bullet holes i it!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:30:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ten-ring:
And don't think you're not under pressure in the hunting field. I've HAD guys shoot at me, and shoot at what I'm shooting at! If you don't want to be draggin' hamberger, you have to get it on the ground with a minimum of fuss. That means good, proven hardware -- NO poodle-shooters here, An elk can soak up thirteen rounds of .338 and come back the next day! It also means being able to keep it on a paper plate at five or six hundred yards, and know how to handle 'situations', like wind and terrain
Any elk that takes thirteen rounds of high powered ammo and comes back the next day either has a really crappy hunter shooting at it or the worlds largest bullet proof vest. I seem to remember in the distant pass plains indians killing buffalo with a bow and arrow and I'll bet it only took five or six at most. Less hyperbole and more real info....unless you have a picture of an elk standing with 13 bullet holes i it!




Nope, that's a true incident from the Blue Mtn. of SE WA from the early 60's -- Store bought ammo, pretty good range. Elk was killed the following day, in the same spot.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:35:18 PM EDT
The LAPD museum has all the firearms, cloths, magazines, etc on display.

The were all illeagal except the pistol homey used to kill himself. The Mak90's were hacked, the Bushy had a G.I. sear installed, said XM-15 but yo could see the hole drilled for the sear. They were Russain mob on drugs.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:35:39 PM EDT
Sorry, no elk where I live. And not a single place I could safely take a 600 yard shot on a whitetail. I've got plenty of palmettos, scrub pines and sawgrass though.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:39:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 8:40:03 PM EDT by MrMojoRising]

Originally Posted By Crowcreek:
I've HAD guys shoot at me, and shoot at what I'm shooting at! ...................a good percentage of guys who lug bolt action rifles around in the woods are just about as good they come.




Lucky for you they're not better.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 9:04:39 PM EDT by rickinvegas]
I was about 3 blocks up Oxnard St. and watched the cops tear ass up the street heading to B&B to get those rifles. We could hear the shooting in the distance. LAPD screwed up the whole thing and we watched it all on TV in real time. The SWAT guys were all around doing "weapons checks" as everything went down but never went in in an organized way. Good ole chief willie was history within a few weeks. What a fiasco.

People who don't know the area first hand have no idea how easy it would have been for a SWAT sniper to get a shot set up. Across Laurel Canyon, there are retail shops and apartment buildings with an ally running behind. In less than 5 minutes, a whole team could have moved into position without ever exposing themselves to fire and ended up 2 to 5 stories up with a clear shot less than 200 yards away.

Click on the Link and go to Satellite and zoom in. You will see what I mean.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:58:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:13:26 PM EDT
The average Joe showing up to "help" could be a plus or possibly a minus depending onn the situation. Ideally, the responding officers would have rifles in their vehicles and would have been able to take-down the suspects as they emerged from the bank and initiated the gunfight. That wasnt the case and we see where it got us. A good example of citizens being allowed to help the police was the Charles Whitman shooting back in the 60's.


If I'm not mistaken, only about 200 officers in LAPD are permitted to carry rifles in their vehicles and due to heavy restriction on training, even fewer actually do so.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:14:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

...almost any competant "citizen" w/ a 'deer rifle' could have taken the BGs down, if they had access...




That's the part I have an issue with. It's not easy to get a clear shot in an urban setting from a ground level position. By the time this average Joe got setup from a decent elevation his target would have long since moved. It's not like a shot in an open field on a buck that just stopped dead in his tracks because you grunted. This buck is running in downtown traffic and slinging shit at you with both hooves.



ah--terrain--no one could pick it; sure you do have a point, but i got to say that the BGs were mostly aiming in the general direction of the police, so a citizen could have access from another area for a shot.....

but i noticed that there were several folks who video taped the shoot out from thier balconies--if they could videotape, they could shoot

but they lacked access and opertunity for distance shooting

h/w, i must agree that in that populated area and w/ the cops in close proximity to the BGs, those potential armed citizens would have caused more problems than they could have solved as the cops might have went off on those vigilanties

but i am saying that in some places, normal citizens would acctually try to help LEOs if they could, however they could

i remember the TX A&M belltower shootings and the students returning fire w/ deer rifles as the police tried to close in on the shooter
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:17:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 8:22:57 PM EDT by Crowcreek]

Originally Posted By MrMojoRising:


That's the part I have an issue with. It's not easy to get a clear shot in an urban setting from a ground level position. By the time this average Joe got setup from a decent elevation his target would have long since moved. It's not like a shot in an open field on a buck that just stopped dead in his tracks because you grunted. This buck is running in downtown traffic and slinging shit at you with both hooves.




OHGodahmighty! You really have no idea what it takes to kill elk, or any big game! Whitetail hunters have it the worst, You really have to work to make a shot happen.

And don't think you're not under pressure in the hunting field. I've HAD guys shoot at me, and shoot at what I'm shooting at! If you don't want to be draggin' hamberger, you have to get it on the ground with a minimum of fuss. That means good, proven hardware -- NO poodle-shooters here, An elk can soak up thirteen rounds of .338 and come back the next day! It also means being able to keep it on a paper plate at five or six hundred yards, and know how to handle 'situations', like wind and terrain.

Sure there are good luck, dumb luck, beginner's luck stories -- But a good percentage of guys who lug bolt action rifles around in the woods are just about as good they come. I think a lot of people would be surprised.

(Edit wrong name)
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:06:33 PM EDT
Set your TIVO to pick up the show "Shootout" They have a good episode on the NHSo that they show fairly frequently.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:21:23 PM EDT
On History Channel's "Shootout" it said that the guy that killed himself actually did it on accident. Said he got a stovepipe jam in his AK and didn't know how simple it was to clear so he threw it down and resorted to the pistol. Then when he went to reload, he he had the barrel pointed at himself and cocked it and the pistol went off turning his brains to shit.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:44:09 PM EDT
My 8mm Mauser 196Gr FMJ will go through 2 pieces of 1/4" steel plate without mushrooming at all, i'm sure it would have a similar effect on body armor.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:09:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
The average Joe showing up to "help" could be a plus or possibly a minus depending onn the situation. Ideally, the responding officers would have rifles in their vehicles and would have been able to take-down the suspects as they emerged from the bank and initiated the gunfight. That wasnt the case and we see where it got us. A good example of citizens being allowed to help the police was the Charles Whitman shooting back in the 60's.


If I'm not mistaken, only about 200 officers in LAPD are permitted to carry rifles in their vehicles and due to heavy restriction on training, even fewer actually do so.



Shootout did a show on the texas tower. If their re-enactment was correct, one of the officers stormed to get into the tower, and met up with a civilian at the same time doing the same thing. The cop hat a revolver (38?) and the civilian had an evil assault weapon (M1 Carbine) and both proceded up the stairs, engaged and killed the guy.

So a civi with an evil assault weapon helped take out the guy.

Much under rated story....
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:21:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LonePathfinder:

Originally Posted By NCPatrolAR:
The average Joe showing up to "help" could be a plus or possibly a minus depending onn the situation. Ideally, the responding officers would have rifles in their vehicles and would have been able to take-down the suspects as they emerged from the bank and initiated the gunfight. That wasnt the case and we see where it got us. A good example of citizens being allowed to help the police was the Charles Whitman shooting back in the 60's.


If I'm not mistaken, only about 200 officers in LAPD are permitted to carry rifles in their vehicles and due to heavy restriction on training, even fewer actually do so.



Shootout did a show on the texas tower. If their re-enactment was correct, one of the officers stormed to get into the tower, and met up with a civilian at the same time doing the same thing. The cop hat a revolver (38?) and the civilian had an evil assault weapon (M1 Carbine) and both proceded up the stairs, engaged and killed the guy.

So a civi with an evil assault weapon helped take out the guy.

Much under rated story....



Actually I think the Allen Crum (the non-LEO) had a bolt gun if I'm not mistaken. He also stood inside the observatory area and never walked out onto the balcony area where Whitman was. An errant shot made by him was said to have been the cause for Whitman being oriented in such a manner that he didnt see the LEOs (Houstan McCoy and Romerio Martinez) approach. Whitman was killed by a .38 and 12ga.
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