m1 carbines are assault weapons?

what evil features do they have besides hicap mags?

i guess some of them might have pistol grips...

Quoted: Quoted: Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you? You must be a fucking cop. Yes, someone with good rifle skills and a scoped rifle in ANY commonly available big game caliber, using commonly available hunting ammunition, firing from cover, would have stopped those two fuckbags COLD. The cops were pinned down when they tried to close the distance with nothing more than handguns. How long did it take SWAT to show up?  How many people were shot in the meantime?

That's a bit strong, isn't it, SWO?

Ironically the MSNBC just ran it again, and you can clearly see the HK in one of the scenes.

There were also civilians watching from balconies that if populated by .........say.... myself, , would have made for a fine vantage point for bump-firing Ivan back to the stone-age!!


Seriously, a lot of Fv<k ups happened that day on the LE side.

Bet it doesn't happen again, though.

Quoted: Quoted: Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you? You must be a fucking cop. Yes, someone with good rifle skills and a scoped rifle in ANY commonly available big game caliber, using commonly available hunting ammunition, firing from cover, would have stopped those two fuckbags COLD. The cops were pinned down when they tried to close the distance with nothing more than handguns. How long did it take SWAT to show up?  How many people were shot in the meantime?

Yeah, or they could have been taken down by 20mm cannon fire from an AH-1, or crushed by a giant foot, ala Monty Python.................................

Unfortunately, no on was there with a scoped rifle, attack helicopter, or giant foot.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda........................ LAPD shoulda been armed with rifles or carbines. That woulda taken care of that situation. And they coulda been, if people weren't whining about "militirzation of the police", how rifles "look" etc. etc. It's not like BG's have nver used rifles or carbines while committing crimes.

Yup, and ironically that crap happened in the most gun restricted state....go figure.  That state is filled with ironocies, ARnold Schwartzenneger as gov?  C'mon man hes the friken terminator....  

Take the guns away from the law abiding citizens and the law abiding citizens get taken from the criminals. (shaking head)

There was an old issue of SOF that wrote in length about this.  I'll see if I can find it.

One of the things that struck me is a local PD apprehended these two a-holes a few years prior driving around with AKs and loaded drum mags during a period I recall between Kali's AW ban and the Federal AW ban.  As they were not actually doing anything wrong but were only acting suspiciously, the PD was forced to let them go and return their hardware.  There was a photo of an officer with the loaded mags (most taped together), loaded drums, and weapons that clearly were not in sporting configurations.  I for one doubted these mutts had registered these guns and was wondering why they gave these back as they were contraban.

Let me find that issue and check the dates cause my memory is not too clear on this.

Quoted: Quoted: Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you? You must be a fucking cop. Yes, someone with good rifle skills and a scoped rifle in ANY commonly available big game caliber, using commonly available hunting ammunition, firing from cover, would have stopped those two fuckbags COLD. The cops were pinned down when they tried to close the distance with nothing more than handguns. How long did it take SWAT to show up?  How many people were shot in the meantime?

Time to take your medicine again.

Quoted: Quoted: Any god damned scoped hunting rifle in any big game caliber would have cut through those assholes' armor like a hot knife through butter. .308" Nosler Partition + body armor = dead bad guy. .300Win/Barnes X-bullet -- Line 'em up!   Twofer!

+1

Through and through.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The average Joe showing up to "help" could be a plus or possibly a minus depending onn the situation. Ideally, the responding officers would have rifles in their vehicles and would have been able to take-down the suspects as they emerged from the bank and initiated the gunfight. That wasnt the case and we see where it got us.  A good example of citizens being allowed to help the police was the Charles Whitman shooting back in the 60's. If I'm not mistaken, only about 200 officers in LAPD are permitted to carry rifles in their vehicles and due to heavy restriction on training, even fewer actually do so. Shootout did a show on the texas tower.  If their re-enactment was correct, one of the officers stormed to get into the tower, and met up with a civilian at the same time doing the same thing.  The cop hat a revolver (38?) and the civilian had an evil assault weapon (M1 Carbine) and both proceded up the stairs, engaged and killed the guy. So a civi with an evil assault weapon helped take out the guy. Much under rated story.... Actually I think the Allen Crum (the non-LEO) had a bolt gun if I'm not mistaken. He also stood inside the observatory area and never walked out onto the balcony area where Whitman was.  An errant shot made by him was said to have been the cause for Whitman being oriented in such a manner that he didnt see the LEOs (Houstan McCoy and Romerio Martinez) approach.  Whitman was killed by a .38 and 12ga.

Well hey its not like the first time THC got the weapons wrong.  I figured they would have it right since it was one of their shoot out shows which are normally pretty accurate.

the gun used by al pacino in the movie"HEAT" was a FNC,5.56

.

Those thugs had to be pretty strong to walk around with all that body armor and bags of loaded mags and drums.

The one with the HK G3 used  two 30 round mags tape together and A3 stock.

Plus carrying 200,000 in cash and handguns plus more ammo.

I know they dumped a lot of gear, in the car.....but still that is a lot of stuff to carry around.

If I recall correctly, neither of the robbers had a helmet or any head protection whatsoever.  None of the police had the wherewithall to try a headshot. Go figure.

Also, I believe there is some debate whether the second perp shot himself or was shot in the head by an officer while he was trying to shoot himself.

As for Joe Citizen with his bolt gun fixing the situation, that guy would have probably ended up in prison or shot by the cops if he did, especially in the people's republic of california.  Sad but true.

Neatest stat is, and answer to one person's question:

How long did it take SWAT to show up? How many people were shot in the meantime?

exactly zero civilian non-robbers were shot

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...almost any competant "citizen" w/ a 'deer rifle' could have taken the BGs down, if they had access... That's the part I have an issue with. It's not easy to get a clear shot in an urban setting from a ground level position. By the time this average Joe got setup from a decent elevation his target would have long since moved. It's not like a shot in an open field on a buck that just stopped dead in his tracks because you grunted. This buck is running in downtown traffic and slinging shit at you with both hooves. ah--terrain--no one could pick it; sure you do have a point, but i got to say that the BGs were mostly aiming in the general direction of the police, so a citizen could have access from another area for a shot..... but i noticed that there were several folks who video taped the shoot out from thier balconies--if they could videotape, they could shoot but they lacked access and opertunity for distance shooting h/w, i must agree that in that populated area and w/ the cops in close proximity to the BGs, those potential armed citizens would have caused more problems than they could have solved as the cops might have went off on those vigilanties but i am saying that in some places, normal citizens would acctually try to help LEOs if they could, however they could i remember the TX A&M belltower shootings and the students returning fire w/ deer rifles as the police tried to close in on the shooter

Hey alpha that was in Austin at t.u., Texas A&M is in College Station.




96Ag

Quoted: If I recall correctly, neither of the robbers had a helmet or any head protection whatsoever.  None of the police had the wherewithall to try a headshot. Go figure. Also, I believe there is some debate whether the second perp shot himself or was shot in the head by an officer while he was trying to shoot himself. As for Joe Citizen with his bolt gun fixing the situation, that guy would have probably ended up in prison or shot by the cops if he did, especially in the people's republic of california.  Sad but true. Neatest stat is, and answer to one person's question: How long did it take SWAT to show up? How many people were shot in the meantime? exactly zero civilian non-robbers were shot

Why not a head shot?  My question exactly...  I remeber exactly where I was when the shootout occured.  I was sitting in a hotel convention room in San Jose on a Friday afternoon, preparing to get my certificate of completion for a Robbery Investigation course, patrially hosted by LAPD instructors.

The whole class sat there watching the shootout as one of our class mates (LAPD CRASH unit officer) got a page that his co-workers were engaged in a shooutout.  I watched the shooting as it unfolded and wondered why the officers were not taking head shots at the suspects.

The class talked about the incident and several things were pointed out.  First, the officers were not armed properly.  LAPD had the sheer numberof officers to pin the suspects down for that length of time until back up arrived.  

Second, a lot of officers are not gun savvy.  Some cops carry guns and qualify (annually, quarterly, etc...) to the department's minimun qualification and nothing more.  Some police departments have firearm qualification courses  that are fairly simple to qualify.  I went to a firearms instructors course several years ago and in the first day our class of 40 LEO students dropped to 23 because the qualification could not be met.  17 LEOs were sent back to their departments, including several SWAT team members.  

Third, training (especially as a whole).  Besides being able to hit your target, there are many variables factored into this incident.  Evacuation of citizens, determination of how many suspects involved, crossfire, backstop, etc.  When this shooting went down, alot of officers responded to the scene.  The level of experience could have ranged from a young officer fresh out of the academy to a seasoned veteran with former military/SWAT combat experience, uniformed and plain clothes officers.  Try getting everbody to work as one in this situation with shots fired, citizens watching, responding media. hem  I'm also a recovering gun nut.)

The bright spot on the whole incident was no good guys died and the realization some departments did not have the equipment to properly respond to an incident.  Some of the officers had to be retired due to their injuries and their careers were cut short.   Hats off to the officers involved in the shootout.

Quoted: the gun used by al pacino in the movie"HEAT" was a FNC,5.56

You earn a gold star smiley for the day!  Excellent.

Quoted:As for Joe Citizen with his bolt gun fixing the situation, that guy would have probably ended up in prison or shot by the cops if he did, especially in the people's republic of california.  Sad but true.

Maybe, maybe not.  It's not even as cut and dried as that in California.  MOST of the state is solid red.  Only the coastal shitholes are blue (except San Diego).

There are ways to aid without getting shot by cops thinking you are a BG.  The safest is from a standoff distance.  If your residence has an overwatch of the scene, you are set.  Take a rest, or sling up, and kill the motherfuckers as soon as they present a clean shot.  Another method, slightly more risky, is to approach some of the cops while using cover, keeping your rifle IN A CASE, so that no one sees a "civilian" rushing the cops with a weapon in hand and caps you.  The you can offer help, and if declined, then say "fuck it, I did my civic duty" and leave.

Quoted: Hey alpha that was in Austin at t.u., Texas A&M is in College Station. hr

+1

Considering what the cops were initially armed with I would have to say they were outgunned. I don't think most cops on a daily routine would encounter anything close to what those officers did during that shootout not to mention most officers are not highly skilled with their sidearms, mediocre at best. I think because of these incidents the quality of law enforcement officers is most likely going up since the job more and more means being in the line of fire, with use for lethal force. However I still see a lot of the bed wetter cops, Napolean types, which in reality are not cut out for situations such as what took place with those two gun men but then again if you armed with nothing more than a sidearm I don't think you would want to walk the streets of Baghdad neither- which is what that situation turned into.  

It's a good thing the dumbasses didn't pay much attention to the tactics used in HEAT. If they had used cover and suppressive fire, they could have easily made it to their car and got he fuck out of there.

Hell, I've watched shootouts so long, where the cops coudn't hit the guy, that he shot himself!~~Ron White.

I would like to know at what distances the cops were shooting their pistols at the two bad guys. I have read about this shootout many times and haven't seen it stated anywhere.

I never did understand why the bad guys didn't hit shit?!!  Did they think the noise of a full auto was going to scare everybody. This one bad guy was only feet away from the officers car that came right into his sites. He was putting holes into the hood of the car he was leaning on?  I always figured it was a, we get away with it, or we go down firing robbery.

There was a part in the movie when the officers went to get some AR's from the sporting goods store and one of them said, "you mean civilians can buy these"?  Totally anti gun statement. I thought the rest of the movie sucked after that, since the movie was obviously anti gunner.

I think Jeff Cooper said it best, when he said it took a "certain mind set" for the police officers to win in that original fire fight.  They didn't have it.

Quoted: Slightly OT: Without going back and looking, what rifle did Al Pacino's character use in the "big shootout"?

I think the rifle was an FNC rifle, the actual rifle is the shorter Paratrooper Model:

Quoted: If I recall correctly, neither of the robbers had a helmet or any head protection whatsoever.  None of the police had the wherewithall to try a headshot. Go figure. Also, I believe there is some debate whether the second perp shot himself or was shot in the head by an officer while he was trying to shoot himself. As for Joe Citizen with his bolt gun fixing the situation, that guy would have probably ended up in prison or shot by the cops if he did, especially in the people's republic of california.  Sad but true. Neatest stat is, and answer to one person's question: How long did it take SWAT to show up? How many people were shot in the meantime? exactly zero civilian non-robbers were shot

First, the suspect who "kills himself", was actually shot by a "sniper", who delivered a fatal shot AS the suspect killed himself. If you see the video, the suspects head "jerks" 2 ways as he goes down. Thats because there were 2 impacts. I believe the "sniper" was armed with an MP5, not a rifle. He was a trained sniper but didn't have his rifle there.

Second, what is the effective range you can expect a trained person, under fire, to use a pistol to deliver a headshot on a moving person? When you come up with a range tell me what the range is for a .223 or .308 rifle to deliver a lethal hit.  

Gee, why is "headshot" so difficult in the real world.........................

"44 Minutes" movie......you guys left out the best part > The tactical shopping cart stolen comandeered from the bum.

This buck is running in downtown traffic and slinging shit at you with both hooves.

sig line material right there...

so what was the gun that Al pacino was carrying?


hehe

Quoted: the gun used by al pacino in the movie"HEAT" was a FNC,5.56

Somehow I knew this would make it into the thread!

Quoted: Quoted: I've HAD guys shoot at me, and shoot at what I'm shooting at! ...................a good percentage of guys who lug bolt action rifles around in the woods are just about as good they come.   Lucky for you they're not better.

Lucky for THEM -- They were just shooting in my general direction.  

When I encounter slobs, I usually try to give them a dose of their own medicine.   So far they seem to be quick learners --  but test out low for shooting skills.



This Hollywood story was a clusterfock which could have been stopped by an officer with a scoped SMLE or 8mm  Mauser in his trunk.  Why didn't the LA cops have more powerful weapons?   I think I know.

And for the record, things would have to get pretty bad for me to jump into the 'Good Samaritan' routine.  "No good deed goes unpunished", and all that.

Quoted: Yeah, or they could have been taken down by 20mm cannon fire from an AH-1, or crushed by a giant foot, ala Monty Python................................. Unfortunately, no on was there with a scoped rifle, attack helicopter, or giant foot. Coulda, shoulda, woulda........................ LAPD shoulda been armed with rifles or carbines. That woulda taken care of that situation. And they coulda been, if people weren't whining about "militirzation of the police", how rifles "look" etc. etc. It's not like BG's have nver used rifles or carbines while committing crimes.

LOL.

Good post.

Quoted: exactly zero civilian non-robbers were shot

Are you suggesting the military responded to the scene?

Good God there's a lot of bullshit in this thread.  Yes, a civilian or cop could have ended the situation very fast with a good scoped rifle, no question.  What some people fail to realize is that someplace like SoCal is not where the police want any civilian help at all.  You show up with a rifle, I can assure you the first cop who sees you is going to draw on you as a suspect.  They might end up using the rifle themselves, but no way are you gonna be a part of the action.  

Also, people keep saying they didn't hit anything with their FA guns.  They did in fact wound at least a couple officers so much so that they could no longer work in the field.  Several other officers and civilians were hit as well.

These guys were simply trying to lay suppressing fire to keep police pinned down in order to make an escape.  

Also, I see people, particularly cops mention how the BG on the sidewalk was killed by the police.  He may have been hit by the police, but he clearly put the pistol to his chin and killed himself.  Whether or not this was simultaneous to another cop shooting him in the head makes no difference.

I ask the same question every time.  How could the good guys fire sooooooooo many shots without accidentally, if nothing else, hitting one or both of them in the head.  Like shooting a pumpkin off a moving box.

Thank God they were just a couple of idiots with no formal training. If they had had even the slightest grasp on the process of 2x2 cover, or God forbid they had been real operators, the LAPD would not have been able to find enough body bags.

Quoted: Also, I see people, particularly cops mention how the BG on the sidewalk was killed by the police.  He may have been hit by the police, but he clearly put the pistol to his chin and killed himself.  Whether or not this was simultaneous to another cop shooting him in the head makes no difference.

1) The BG only shot himself after all his weapons, except for his pistol, were hit and put out of action, by police rounds.
2) The contention that no police officers tried headshots................... yeah they did. It just so happens that a "headshot" only worked with an officer with a SMG, with a much longer sight radius than a pistol, after the BG's MG's had been stopped.

Quoted: Thank God they were just a couple of idiots with no formal training. If they had had even the slightest grasp on the process of 2x2 cover, or God forbid they had been real operators, the LAPD would not have been able to find enough body bags.

If Platt and Matix had been the robbers, rather than Dumb and Dumber, a lot of people would have died.

Quoted: Quoted: Also, I see people, particularly cops mention how the BG on the sidewalk was killed by the police.  He may have been hit by the police, but he clearly put the pistol to his chin and killed himself.  Whether or not this was simultaneous to another cop shooting him in the head makes no difference. 1) The BG only shot himself after all his weapons, except for his pistol, were hit and put out of action, by police rounds. 2) The contention that no police officers tried headshots................... yeah they did. It just so happens that a "headshot" only worked with an officer with a SMG, with a much longer sight radius than a pistol, after the BG's MG's had been stopped.

Oly, I'm with you guys on the head shot matter. I am a very good marksman with a pistol (in comparison to most at least) and probably could not make such a shot at more than 20 meters. Hell, I have shot a moving dummy (bobbing and weaving) with the rifle, and body shots took concentration. Head shots were a nogo unless you got him when he slowed and turned.

Quoted: Quoted: Also, I see people, particularly cops mention how the BG on the sidewalk was killed by the police.  He may have been hit by the police, but he clearly put the pistol to his chin and killed himself.  Whether or not this was simultaneous to another cop shooting him in the head makes no difference. 1) The BG only shot himself after all his weapons, except for his pistol, were hit and put out of action, by police rounds. 2) The contention that no police officers tried headshots................... yeah they did. It just so happens that a "headshot" only worked with an officer with a SMG, with a much longer sight radius than a pistol, after the BG's MG's had been stopped.

Exactly.  He knew there was no way out and wasn't gonna be taken alive.  I heard his rifle jammed, so he started with the pistol.  Jammed, out of ammo, or rendered inactive by return fire, he still just killed himself.

I never claimed the police didn't try head shots.  In fact, on the audio recording from the radio activity that day, more than one officer told the dispatch and other officers that they were in body armor and to aim for the head.  Unfortunately, they couldn't get close enough or in a postiton to try and place a good head shot.  It's just not that easy, especially when so much chaos is around you and you're being shot at.

Quoted: Drum mag equipped I might add. How come nobody was able to hit those guys in the head? The cops borrowed AR-15's from a sporting goods store and still couldn't do it.

Have you ever had rounds coming your way?  Its easy to shoot at a one way range... try it under fire and see how you do.

Quoted: Good God there's a lot of bullshit in this thread.  Yes, a civilian or cop could have ended the situation very fast with a good scoped rifle, no question.  What some people fail to realize is that someplace like SoCal is not where the police want any civilian help at all.  You show up with a rifle, I can assure you the first cop who sees you is going to draw on you as a suspect.  They might end up using the rifle themselves, but no way are you gonna be a part of the action.

I am going to differ with you a bit here.  At least when it comes to this particular incident.

I was there (well, I was a few blocks away and could hear every shot).  The thing to keep in mind is how long this lasted.  From the moment we turned on the TV to when the bad guys left the parking lot (remember, we watched this in real time.  We could even hear the split second time lag between the TV and the actual sound of the bursts) was almost 30 MINUTES!!  Several of us (all gun owners and avid hunters/shooters) were watching all of this and just couldn't figure out how these guys were still standing.  I was born and raised in the Valley and knew every inch of this area.  Every street, every ally and every building.  Now, I'm not for a second claiming that any of us were getting ready to "get into the fight" but the main reason we weren't was because we assumed the cops were doing what we knew to be so easy.  Hell, there were at least 20 balconys right across the street with all kinds of beaner shit hanging off the rails.  They had perfect cover.  If a civilian (or a SWAT sniper) had decided to get into a position with a scoped rifle, I assure you they would never have been seen by anyone prior to taking the shot.  Even the bad guys wouldn't have seen them.  Another thing, if someone had done that, they would have been touted as a hero..........by everyone, even the police.  Eventhough it was only 8 years ago, it was a different time in L.A.  In '97, the LAPD was still very much Gates' department in terms of leadership.  All that changed very quickly after this.  

Quoted: exactly zero civilian non-robbers were shot

Rabbit, I could mistaken, but I recall seeing at least 2 civilians lying behind a patrol car - both shot - and bleeding and unable to exfil for a long time

Now it could be they were plain-clothes, but they were definitely shot, and definitely not in uniform

Quoted: so what was the gun that Al pacino was carrying? hehe

Man in the movie those AR's were loud as shit in the downtown getaway scene no?

Quoted: Quoted: Do you fellas honestly believe a single "citizen" with a deer rifle could've handled the situation better than the PD/SWAT? It's a cute little comment to make but you don't actually buy the shit you're shoveling do you? You must be a fucking cop. Yes, someone with good rifle skills and a scoped rifle in ANY commonly available big game caliber, using commonly available hunting ammunition, firing from cover, would have stopped those two fuckbags COLD. The cops were pinned down when they tried to close the distance with nothing more than handguns. How long did it take SWAT to show up?  How many people were shot in the meantime?

Nice generalization.

Address him if you like, but don't drag the rest of us into your stereotype.

I'm with you in sharing the opinion that a decent caliber rifle would have made all the difference, no matter who was wielding it. Problem is, there aren't many well-armed hunters lurking around North Hollywood during the middle of the day.

Quoted: Quoted: Thank God they were just a couple of idiots with no formal training. If they had had even the slightest grasp on the process of 2x2 cover, or God forbid they had been real operators, the LAPD would not have been able to find enough body bags. If Platt and Matix had been the robbers, rather than Dumb and Dumber, a lot of people would have died.

A big plus 1.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thank God they were just a couple of idiots with no formal training. If they had had even the slightest grasp on the process of 2x2 cover, or God forbid they had been real operators, the LAPD would not have been able to find enough body bags. If Platt and Matix had been the robbers, rather than Dumb and Dumber, a lot of people would have died. A big plus 1.

+2

Interesting side note:  Despite the fact that this is probably one of the most clear-cut "ok to use deadly force" incidents in police history, the family of the bank robber who was shot still sued both the police department and two of the officers involved.  The legal bills for those named in the suit totalled well over $100,000.  Although the jury eventually found for the defense, a full third of the jury was convinced that the officers had used excessive force.

My point is just because a person carries a gun for a living does not make them an expert shot.

This is a sad quote. Equivalent to saying...just because a surgeon has a little bag with scalpels in it, does not mean he knows how to operate.

or.. Just because and accountant carries a calculator, doesn't mean he knows how to balance the books...

Quoted: My point is just because a person carries a gun for a living does not make them an expert shot. This is a sad quote. Equivalent to saying...just because a surgeon has a little bag with scalpels in it, does not mean he knows how to operate. or.. Just because and accountant carries a calculator, doesn't mean he knows how to balance the books...

Not equivalent to saying.....  I'm saying just because a person carries a gun for a living does not make them an expert shot, ie. best of the best.  Surgeons make mistakes every day resulting in wrongful medical deaths.  An accountant can run numbers and make mistakes when they are not concentrating or do not double check their figures but that is a total different analogy.

Some police officers fire their guns only when they have to (annual, bi-annual, quarterly qualifications) to keep their certification.  DAC-2141 if you are an LEO or have friends who are LEOs you would know what I'm talking about.  

Years ago police candidates were only hired if they had military training or were given preference points during the hiring process in the hopes the person would have life experience or have the ability to remain calm under pressure.  Law enforcement has changed in the past years.  Hiring now includes alot of different people from various walks of life.  Some of these people are not very interested in guns and they do not train any further than the qualification course their department  requires of them.

I'm making a guess that most members here have a greater interest in firearms and hopefully we shoot more than the average joe (and police officer for that matter).  

What I'm getting at is.... at the time of the shootout, LAPD did not have the right equipment to drop the bad guys immediately.  A long gun (including 12 guage loaded with one ounce slug) could have made the difference immediately.  The only person who could of made the critical head shot would have been an "expert" with the pistol.  Unfortunately there are very few "expert" shots.

I do consider myself a better than average shooter.  I, as well the rest of you could have made a difference, but we were not there, so we made no difference.  The only people who made any difference were the people involved in the shootout.

The common consensus is that all weapons were illegally modified full auto. I had heard some theories that painted the two perps as figures of international organized crime, but thats bullshit. They were two ex cons with military weapons and some innovation*not that I am celebrating what they did, but it was innovative, and sick/wrong* After the incident, people tried to make them out to be arch-supercriminals to hide the fact that two average citizens with tweaked guns terrorized an entire city and the police were powerless to intervene.

All of the weapons were originally semi-auto only and they were modified full auto illegally. The HK91, AK's and AR 15's were all illegally modified. Don't give these guys to much credit, converting a semi-auto AK or AR back to its former glory isn't difficult, just illegal and foolish.
It may not always be done right or safely, but its done....and it works. Sorry, no illegal guns from the Mexican army, just part of the post action propaganda.

People have been picking apart LAPD's actions since the minutes following the death of the suspects. They were completely powerless to resist and acted bravely in the face or great danger and saved the lives of civilians and brother officers alike. SWAT could be a huge asset in situations like this but as Columbine and North Hollywood tought us, when SWAT is direly needed we cant afford to have them sit back and check weapons why children die. SWAT teams need to devise "rapid respose" type tacticts so as not to prolong the situation and cost more lives. Despite LAPD's bravery, had SWAT intervened immediatly using basic tactics, this would have been over. Granted the weapons were equal, the tactics however, were not. All to often in emergencies like this and Columbine, SWAT was "Sittting Waiting And Talking" while people were dying.