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Posted: 1/20/2006 10:46:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 1:10:42 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
Well, I can't say that I'm surprised. I set up a new Paypal account to accept payments related to a business I own. That business is in no way or form related to firearms, weapons, weapons or firearms parts etc... However, I sold a STG58 kit to a guy (and, as you know, not legally a "firearm" or regulated legally in any way, and the guy lives in a free state) and he sent me the funds via Paypal. So, here's the message I just got from Paypal.


Dear, [SIR]

The PayPal User Agreement states that PayPal, at its sole discretion,
reserves the right to close an account for any violation of the User
Agreement, including the Acceptable Use Policy. Under the Acceptable Use
Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for any firearm,
in addition to certain firearm parts and accessories, ammunition,
destructive devices, militaria and ordnance, weapons, and knives. The
complete Acceptable Use Policy addressing Firearms, Weapons, and Knives can
be found at the following URL:

XXXXX

We are hereby notifying you that, after a recent review of your account
activity, it has been determined that you are in violation of PayPal's
Acceptable Use Policy. Therefore, your account has been closed.

You will need to remove all references to PayPal from your website(s)
and/or auction(s). This includes not only removing PayPal as a payment
option, but also the PayPal logo and/or shopping cart. We thank you in
advance for your cooperation. If you have any questions, please contact
the PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department at aup@paypal.com.

Sincerely,
PayPal Acceptable Use Policy Department
PayPal, an eBay Company



So, I went to the link [the XXXXs] and, as stated, this is their policy:



FIREARMS
You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of any firearm. This includes all rifles, shotguns, and handguns, whether for use in sporting, as collectibles, or curio and relic (C&R) firearms, and regardless of their present working order. Furthermore, PayPal defines “firearm” consistent with the U.S. Code and, as such, prohibits frames, receivers, or any other serialized firearm components. For more information, please refer to U.S. Code Title 18, Section 921

Exception for Imitation and Non-Powder Guns
PayPal permits the use of its services in the sale of certain properly-conforming replica (imitation) guns, paintball guns, blank guns, and “air-soft” guns. These items must display all markings required by law, must not be able to be readily converted to shoot a lethal projectile, and blank ammunition must not be included in the sale. For more information regarding regulations applicable to the sale of imitation firearms, please refer to U.S. Code Title 15, Section 5001. The sale of imitation guns may be regulated differently outside the U.S., and international buyers and sellers must abide by these laws accordingly.

FIREARM PARTS AND ACCESSORIES
You may not use PayPal to purchase or sell any firearm receivers or frames, components and parts of receivers and frames, or "cut" or "80%" receivers. PayPal also does not permit assault weapon-related parts and accessories, firearm silencers, and kits designed to convert a firearm to have automatic firing capability. This includes the sale of any parts or accessories prohibited for sale by the National Firearms Act or other federal or state law, including items related to short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles, fully automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, multi-burst trigger activators and camouflaging firearm containers.

For more information about the National Firearms Act (NFA) and its requirements, please refer to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms website.



According to Paypal. "Furthermore, PayPal defines “firearm” consistent with the U.S. Code".

So, according to Paypal's own policy, I didn't voilate their code. Now, here's the kicker. When I called them they said the only way to resolve the issue was to log into my account and write an e-mail appeal. They said, "no", there is no one to talk to....writing the e-mail is the only way. So I went to my account and it said...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This limitation of your account privileges cannot be appealed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion: I suppose I deserve all of this. I opened an account with a company like this in spite of all my buds here at ARFCOM's warnings. I only did it because it wasn't going to be used for anything gun related. Oh, well. So, if you're like me (and don't listen until you've heard something a hundred times) and were or are tempted to open up a Paypal account, let this story be a lesson to you.

Now (and I know this has come up before), please suggest some reasonably priced alternatives--so I can accept credit cards on-line. Please suggest company's who don't have retarded policies that they, themselves, don't even understand, company's or options that don't require me to deal with anti-gun asshats.

Thanks.

P.S. Luckily I was in the habit of transferring all the funds out of the account as soon they appeared. Good thing, because the account is now "suspend" for 180 days after which it will be cancelled/closed.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:49:32 AM EDT
You just have to be carefull,I've had mine for over 5 years and it's still going strong.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:52:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 11:06:05 AM EDT by bfieldburt]

Originally Posted By Ghetto:
You just have to be carefull,I've had mine for over 5 years and it's still going strong.



Careful? I'm not sure what that means. I didn't violate their policy, but because they don't even understand their own policy I've been suspended . Those people wouldn't know what a "firearm" was if it bit them in the ass. I guess you mean to never accept payments for anything sharp, pointed, or with parkerization on it. I guess I just don't know how to be that careful...obviously.

Now, rereading the policy, this is where they've got me...


PayPal also does not permit assault weapon-related parts and accessories



Now this goes back to the entire stupidity of defining what an "assault weapon" is. Because this is so confusing in "U.S. Code", I guess "assault weapon" can mean anything Paypal decides it wants it to mean.

As a private company, Paypal has the right to work with anyone they want...based on any standards they want. I do not deny them that right.

I'm just think the whole thing is retarded. They don't know their asses from a bb gun and I get my account suspended.

So, again, could you guys suggest some alternatives so I can accept credit card on-line.

Damn I dislike anti-gun companies and idiots.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:06:53 AM EDT
Just dont use any firearm-related words in your PayPal communiques. Is that so freaking hard to do? People whine and moan about their policy like it is a such a big deal or tribulation, somehow I manage to pay and receive money through PayPal for gun deals with no problem.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:08:54 AM EDT
What about kitchen knives bought at amazon.com? Those prohibited too? Kitchen knives on ebay no good?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:13:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 11:15:12 AM EDT by bfieldburt]

Originally Posted By jvic:
What about kitchen knives bought at amazon.com? Those prohibited too? Kitchen knives on ebay no good?



That's supposed to be O.K. Under their policy. Problem is, they don't even understand their own policy half the time.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:14:53 AM EDT
I should start a new business. Gunpal.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:15:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MissouriBob:
I should start a new business. Gunpal.



Please do.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:22:06 AM EDT
ibtl!
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:24:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MissouriBob:
I should start a new business. Gunpal.

+1
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:40:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By falaholic1:
ibtl!



Decide not to get it deleted. Want to scare the misery with other.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:44:46 AM EDT
explain to me how they figured out what the funds were for?

a while back i bought/sold lots of firearms related products through them and no one ever noticed because we all new not to write in what we were buying/selling in the notes section.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:45:18 AM EDT
It's simple really, don't ever sell guns, gun parts, accys to people, only porn, sexual aides, bondage gear. Nothing like a good M-4 spreader bar with carrier to spice up the love life, YHM Phantom nipple clamps, Analcogs, etc.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:46:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Just dont use any firearm-related words in your PayPal communiques. Is that so freaking hard to do? People whine and moan about their policy like it is a such a big deal or tribulation, somehow I manage to pay and receive money through PayPal for gun deals with no problem.



You're smarter than I am.

I salute your common sense and forethought.

I just didn't even think about it. The guy wanted the kit and we both had Paypal accounts. I didn't even look at the words we used.

Oh, well.

Again, you're smarter than me.

The big point is, however, that no one should have to worry about stupid crap like this. Tell me what is wrong with sending another American some unregulated and totally legal gun parts? Nothing, obviously.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:47:17 AM EDT
www.charge.com


It costs a little bit on a monthly fee basis, but if you have any regular business, you should be able to justify it.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:49:25 AM EDT
I'll say it because no one else has the guts:

WTH were you doing selling an StG?!? Don't sell, only buy! WTH is wrong with you? Sheesh.


Really, there's so many people saying PP is anti-gun and just crap in general, I don't know why anyone still uses them.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:49:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 11:51:21 AM EDT by bfieldburt]

Originally Posted By dsg2003gt:
explain to me how they figured out what the funds were for?

a while back i bought/sold lots of firearms related products through them and no one ever noticed because we all new not to write in what we were buying/selling in the notes section.



I have no idea, and, frankly, didn't worry about it because I wasn't violating their policy. But, again, because they don't seem to understand what they write or what an "assault weapon" is, apparently I did. And on top of that, I'll never know what, specifically, I did wrong because my suspension "is not open to appeal" or even explanation other than "read our policy" told to me by one of their customer service people who didn't understand it really either.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 11:58:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bfieldburt:
Well, I can't say that I'm surprised. I set up a new Paypal account to accept payments related to a business I own. That business is in no way or form related to firearms, weapons, weapons or firearms parts etc... However, I sold a STG58 kit to a guy (and, as you know, not legally a "firearms" or regulated legally in any way) and he sent me the funds via Paypal. So, here's the message I just got from Paypal.




In the year+ that you've been a member on ARFcom, you've probably seen 50 posts about PayPal cancelling accounts for gun stuff. And now you're admitting it to everyone here that you've done it, too. I think you can sue PayPal for discrimination since you're obviously retarded.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:28:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Just dont use any firearm-related words in your PayPal communiques. Is that so freaking hard to do? People whine and moan about their policy like it is a such a big deal or tribulation, somehow I manage to pay and receive money through PayPal for gun deals with no problem.



Yup,when I sell those EVIL hicap Glock mags and I get paid through paypal I ask the buyer to name the item G22 mags or whatever,heck when I bought a LPK on here through a vendor I smiply labelled it a LPK and all was well.

Just be carefull
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:28:50 PM EDT
Im not going to use a service that doesnt support my constitutional RKBA, I dont care how handy it is for "Other" transactions.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:31:14 PM EDT
That's why I cancelled my 5 YO paypal account last year.


Oh and BTW, the NJ gun rights group thinks paypal is not anti-gun


Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:34:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:36:09 PM EDT by bullyforyou]


nevermind. someone already said it.

damn typing before reading...

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:37:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:40:50 PM EDT by bfieldburt]

Originally Posted By JavaMan:

In the year+ that you've been a member on ARFcom, you've probably seen 50 posts about PayPal cancelling accounts for gun stuff. And now you're admitting it to everyone here that you've done it, too. I think you can sue PayPal for discrimination since you're obviously retarded.



Yes, I do feel fairly dumb (oh, and thanks for rubbin' salt in the wound ). I didn't really post this to remind everyone--yes, once again--what they should already know. I actually wanted some useful suggestions on alternative suggestions for credit card acceptance. I just figured I'll tell you the story behind it...why not. I need people like you to make me feel better about myself and call me names so, maybe, I won't be so stupid in the future.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:41:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 12:42:08 PM EDT by lippo]

Did anyone realize that Paypal and Ebay might be covering their butts against being arrested for selling "evil" rifle or pistol parts to Commiefornia or any of the other communist states in America?

If you sold that STG kit to someone in NY or CA, don't you think, these jurisdictions may come after Paypal or Ebay too?

If you ask me, they are just covering their butts because of our stupid politicians and our corrupt law enforcement that will uphold UnConstitutional laws. That's all. And some here...you all know who they are...would be too willing to serve those laws too.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:42:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
That's why I cancelled my 5 YO paypal account last year.


Oh and BTW, the NJ gun rights group thinks paypal is not anti-gun





That was me... over here

I'm in the process of setting up an AlertPay account. Just it's a bit more "process" than PayPal was.

No Expert
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:42:38 PM EDT
We should ban pay pal from this site and all others. Start your own net-bank.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:44:01 PM EDT
I don't know a lot of the details o Paypal, how it all works, their customer agreements, etc. But it sounds enough like a bank, or performs banking functions. Does the Treasury Dept. approve them? That is, do they have a banking license? Something one might want to ask the Treasury about. Nothing to do with firearms and prohibitions, etc. They seem to be handling funds, and some have had problems with non payments, etc. Just a seed planted.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:45:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoseyWales:
We should ban pay pal from this site and all others. Start your own net-bank.



I think you're right about the first part. If one protests "How can they do this", they will tell you, and even many on this site will defend them, that they are a private business and can do what they wish. OK, ban them wherever you wish. I agree.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:45:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
www.charge.com

It costs a little bit on a monthly fee basis, but if you have any regular business, you should be able to justify it.



So, are you already using these guys? Anyone with any experiences with them? And, I guess even more importantly, are they going to "suspend" me for doing perfectly honest, unregulated, and legal things?
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:50:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:57:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 1:08:24 PM EDT by bfieldburt]
Getting my Paypal account suspended for selling some totally legal and totally unregulated FAL parts.

The more I think about it, the more that maybe makes me feel O.K.

If they're going to do that, I really should--like a lot of you guys have been saying forever --do business with someone else, even if that business was almost always totally un-weapon related.

I can handle it. But it is/was kind of irritating.

Enough said on my part. I now refer everyone to No Expert's much better link:


Originally Posted By No_Expert:

Originally Posted By sixgunsblazing:
That's why I cancelled my 5 YO paypal account last year.


Oh and BTW, the NJ gun rights group thinks paypal is not anti-gun





That was me... over here

I'm in the process of setting up an AlertPay account. Just it's a bit more "process" than PayPal was.

No Expert

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 1:01:24 PM EDT
Well, even if you are using paypal for non-gun stuff, your still supporting a business that makes a mockery of the 2nd ammendment, no matter what their reason. Use someone else. Screw paypal...they are yet another business that thinks their crap don't stink, just like Cingular (cust service is about as bad as paypal's treatment of gun people.
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