Quoted: Quoted: Boy did I save alot of money by not going. No shit.  My friend and I had this conversation last night.  OTJ training is so much better.

Of course it is.  Unfortunately in most fields OTJ training by itself keeps your mobility limited, as you are kept relatively low on the totem pole where your skills can make a difference.

The problem with college for people that went and people that didn't is that a lot of people think it's for job training or learning skills.  It's not.

We live in a world where a piece of paper means everything.  Particularly to employers.  It's incredible to me that a myriad of college grads can't even spell or use proper grammar.  

College degrees are overrated, IMO.  Sure, it's nice to have one, specifically to prepare for today's job market, but it's simply silly to dismiss someone who's applying for a job, based on a lack of that piece of paper.  I've seen so many talented individuals turned down for a job simply because they don't have that MBA!

Everyone's whining over a lack of teachers, skilled workers, nurses, etc.  I would submit that if you get all that general education crap out of various curricula, you wouldn't have a lack of "skilled workers."  

For example, why couldn't an experienced carpenter, who has no degree, teach woodshop at a high school?  Why does a would-be nurse need to know Humanities, Chemistry or College Algebra to become a competent health care provider?  

If you look at the College or University system, it's really a scam.  All they really want is your money.  Completely devoid of any curricula that may actually teach students a trade or special skill.  Offering only that, which may or may not be transferable and/or useless for future endeavors.  

I have a degree, but to me, it means very little.  Experience, attitude and common sense rate higher in my book, when hiring a candidate.  

Hell, if you've got money, you can literally "buy" a college degree.  So many of my "younger" friends who have a college education, have simply paid for it!  They literally hired other students to do their work for them.  Most professors don't care.  They have too many students to provide   any type of personal attention.  They simply want the work turned in.

Sorry for the rant.  I'll get off my soapbox now!

Bud

Can you smell the class warfare in this thread?
oh,oh smell it!

Quoted:  Why does a would-be nurse need to know Humanities, Chemistry or College Algebra to become a competent health care provider?

i'd want nurses to know chemistry....

They'd learn enough chemistry in their A&P courses.  Acid-Base, pH, etc.  

Pfft.  College students dont have the life skills to keep them from walking out in front of an oncoming bus.  I nearly run over at least 3 of the dumbasses a day.  I nearly shit myself with joy when they use a crosswalk.



I have been thinking about presenting a class recomendation to the board of deans:  Freshmen Life Skills 101.  Learn such skills as:

• How to balance a checkbook


• How to cross a street safely


• How to eat more than Raman Noodles and Cheetos


• How to successfully use a search engine


• How to and when to check your car's fluids


• How to shut the fuck up...not look like a dumbass when you open your mouth eloquently state your opinion with logic and reasoning


• Why student loans are NOT your friend


• More...

Quoted: Can you smell the class warfare in this thread? oh,oh smell it!

The peons are getting restless, what can I say.

Seriously, though, I don't look down on anybody.  Choices have consequences, and if the choice made was "Degree? I don't need no steenkin' degree" then so be it.  Doesn't mean people are stupid or anything, however I do think it's a bad way to start a career.

Sure, Bill Gates may have made billions of dollars without a college degree, but my aunt deals blackjack 5 days a week and my cousin nearing 30 waits tables.  'Course, his older brother that actually did go to college is an architect.

I mean, I don't know but it seems to me it doesn't matter if college teaches you anything - it matters that you go and get the degree.  From there, your competence (or lack thereof) will determine how far you'll make it (if at all).  But there's not too many people that hire, say, chemical engineers that claim to have their academic experience with a chemistry set and a public library.

So you can bitch about how much a college degree doesn't mean anything in terms of competence by itself.  That's true. Like most things in life, there is no magic bullet, and a college degree certainly isn't.

Quoted: I think they've dumbed down the whole college experience so EVERYBODY has a chance to go.  Now we have a bunch of "educated idiots" with degrees.  There is no longer a real incentive to get a degree when ANYBODY can get one.  Of course that’s just my cynical view and we’ll all be working at some service related job anyway soon once the Pakistanis and Indians take over more of our jobs.

Yep.

My dad's a dept chair at a college. He got dirty looks for announcing at a faculty meeting that almost all the school's problems were caused by admissions letting any idiot through the door, and (taking a quote from the President of Deleware State) that was causing the school to take "garbage in, and turn garbage out. It may be slightly more literate garbage, but it is still garbage."

I blame a lot of this on High Schools, which are utter crap. My grandfather left a public high school in a coal mining town in PA able to do Algebra, speak French and Latin, and fix a car.  Today I watched a kid argue that Africa was bigger than Asia. Most of 'em can't write a two page paper to save their lives.

My MA is basically worth what a BA was worth in my father and grandfather's day. And this is because HS no longer prepares people to, well, live and be productive citizens. My grandfather was a US Marine, and then foreman of two factories. Never needed a college degree. He couldn't do that today, or be as sucessful. Because HS wouldn't prepare him to do so. A BA today equals my grandfather's HS education. And that's if you go to a good school, imo. Many colleges don't even get up that high.

And the plain fact is, college isn't for everybody, no matter what my liberal profs say. Or people who think they have to be in some sort of self defined social class. Some people hate this stuff, and are here a)to party or b)because their parents sent them. Christ, we get engineering kids who, quote, "want to work on cars". Well, Christ, why not go to mechanic's school and work in a garage? Oh no, that's somehow "beneath" them, despite having fuck all math skills to get a ME degree. And like there's something wrong with being a mechanic and doing an honest days work. They also seem to wonder why comments like that irritate me. They think that somehow I'd understand a comment like that having a BA already. Yeah, I may have a BA, but I come from coal miner stock.

Quoted: Quoted:  Why does a would-be nurse need to know Humanities, Chemistry or College Algebra to become a competent health care provider?   i'd want nurses to know chemistry....

To be a well rounded person with the ability to analyze the world around her? I dunno if you think thats important, but I do. So do the Jesuits--thats where I got the idea

I doubt I could have achieved my doctorate-level science skills without the university system.  It is worth it for the comptetent and highly motivated.  But honestly, when I got my bachelor's at 21 I didn't really have much real-world skills other than building PCs and doing basic repairs/upgrades on my car.  And these were the result of having hobbies.  I didn't have any money then so I was clueless about that as well.  

But, given the choice of going through life with or without my degrees, the choice is easy.  

Quantitative skills are lacking, no doubt about that.

The problem is the standards are too low. When I was in college, we had the lowest standards in the history of our state. The semester after I started, they came to their senses and raised the standards. When I was in, for the average BA you didn't have to take any math, no foreign languages, and only the most basic natural and life sciences. They lowered the bar as low as possible to make it possible for people who had no business being in college to get a degree. I think they lowered the minimum GPA to 2.0. For Cal State, if you managed a 2.0 in high school, you were in. IMO, if all you can manage is a 2.0 in HS, you have no business being in college. If you want in directly from HS, you should have a 3.0; if you transfer from a community college, maybe a 2.5. But if all you can manage overall is a 2.0...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  Why does a would-be nurse need to know Humanities, Chemistry or College Algebra to become a competent health care provider?   i'd want nurses to know chemistry.... To be a well rounded person with the ability to analyze the world around her? I dunno if you think thats important, but I do. So do the Jesuits--thats where I got the idea

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

I've got great nunchuck skills... does that count?

I dont see a million new electronic gadgets every year by all the electrical and computer engineers that supposedly graduate.

I dont see any improvement in geology.

I dont see any improvements in biology.

Etc etc.

What do college graduates do?  

They probably all get jobs at some company that is a front for the government,  They get paid 50K+ a year to contribute NOTHING to society, science, or anything other then fattening their asses.

The rest contribute to manual labor and make everything work,  and get paid the least.

And a very very small portion actually do contribute to science.

What REALLY pisses me off about college is that only about 25% of my classes have anything to do with my major. That means that 75% of my money, time and effort is for nothing.

The problem has roots in two places. The first is the American home. It seems to me that everyone who cares about their kid wants him/her to go to college. They never give any thought to the idea that not everyone has the ability or the intelligence to go to college.  Rather than encouraging their child to find the job that they are best suited for based on intelligence and aptitude, they demand that their kid go to college and seek a job that they will never be qualified for. Thus, instead of becoming a garbageman, a child who can't even speak proper English and barely got through high school decides to be a lawyer. Instead of telling their children to do their best and seek work accordingly, they make them believe that they are smart enough to do anything, even when they cleary are not.

The second cause of this problem is the schools themselves. They let these idiots in, and then refuse to tell them that they aren't smart enough to stay.

Quoted: Pfft.  College students dont have the life skills to keep them from walking out in front of an oncoming bus.  I nearly run over at least 3 of the dumbasses a day.  I nearly shit myself with joy when they use a crosswalk. I have been thinking about presenting a class recomendation to the board of deans:  Freshmen Life Skills 101.  Learn such skills as: How to balance a checkbook  Check How to cross a street safely How to eat more than Raman Noodles and Cheetos  Check How to successfully use a search engine  Check How to and when to check your car's fluids  Check How to shut the fuck up...not look like a dumbass when you open your mouth eloquently state your opinion with logic and reasoning Check Why student loans are NOT your friend Check More...

My freshman year we actually had a class that covered these.  In addition, one of the reasons our school had no cafeteria was "They've got to learn to cook sometime."

Quoted: I dont see a million new electronic gadgets every year by all the electrical and computer engineers that supposedly graduate. I dont see any improvement in geology. I dont see any improvements in biology. Etc etc. What do college graduates do?   They probably all get jobs at some company that is a front for the government,  They get paid 50K+ a year to contribute NOTHING to society, science, or anything other then fattening their asses. The rest contribute to manual labor and make everything work,  and get paid the least. And a very very small portion actually do contribute to science.

We just launched a space probe to explore the outer reaches of the galaxy. New medicines and medical procedures (biology) are being discovered nearly every day.  20 years ago, most people had never heard of the internet.  15 years ago a 14.4 modem was fast.  10 years ago we thought a CD held a lot of data.  Look at all of the new entertainment and communication technology that is available today.  

If you don't see any advances you are blind. If you don't know about them your are ignorant.  If you are blind and ignorant then you are part of the problem.

That said, a disturbing number of these advances are coming from overseas or are dependent on overseas technology because the American educational system is going to hell in a handbasket.  American kids are good at demanding their rights, feeling good about themselves and suing those who hurt their feelings.  We rank in the teens on actually ability in the fields of science and mathematics, but we rank number one in how we feel about our ability in the fields of science and mathematics.  I can't remember the figures on the liberal arts.

One of the primary reasons for the failure of the American system of education is that it delegates the responsibility for education to the government.  NEWS FLASH:  If your kid is an idiot, it is your fault.  If you are an idiot, it is your fault.  When it comes to providing protection, sustenance or education for my family, I trust NO ONE but my wife and myself.

If your school or college sucks, educate yourself.  READ and THINK.  There are libraries everywhere and an increasing number of classic books on-line.  Turn off the TV, get your head out of the Harlequin novel and read something important.  I am amazed at the number of people today who will try to comment on the Constitution who haven't read the thing, much less the Fedarilist papers or any other historical documents.

The average American watches TV 6 hours a day.  If we read that much, we could easily go through over 300 books a year.  Surely, if we read that much something would rub off.

It is a shame that our college educated kids can't read a map, but I'm not sending my kids to college to learn about maps or any of the other stuff listed in the article.  I served as the family navigator on our lap around the West when I was 8.  That's when I learned to read a highway map.  The Boy Scouts taught me to read a topo when I was 11.  My kids will know all of the things listed in that article long before they leave the house.

I have seen this 100% with kids out of college we have hired, and some of them even have MBA's.  Their spelling and grammar skills are especially bad - like 6th grader bad.  Seriously.

Quoted: It's hard to study when you're sucking on a keg di...  nevermind..

Quoted: Quoted:  Why does a would-be nurse need to know Humanities, Chemistry or College Algebra to become a competent health care provider?   i'd want nurses to know chemistry....

Algebra too, for that matter. You have 400 mg of dopamine, a 250 ml bag of saline and a 60 gtt/ml drip set, with orders to deliver 5 mcg per kilo per minute to a patient weighing 78 kilos...

Quoted: Quoted: I see firsthand examples of this situation almost everyday at my college. One day, this kid just finishes washing his clothes, but all the dryers are in use. So the genius ends up hanging his wet pants over an exposed lightbulb in his dorm room to dry them out. He leaves the room to get dinner, and when he comes back...whatdya know, his  room is on fire. Sprinkler system comes on and all of his and his roommates electronics equipment is damaged or destroyed. What wasn't ruined by water was ruined by fire. Proof that just because you're in an ivy league college doesn't mean you're smart. hello fellow cornellian! i was in donlon when that happened... i had to study for a calc prelim the next day... didn't appreciate being stuck outside the building for a few hours while the firetrucks came

hey whatsup. What school are you in?

Quoted: {snip} Bud

Part of me agrees with you and part of me doesn't.  

Part of me thinks that in today's day and age, you NEED a college degree regardless of how much it means.  Simply put, if you don't have a college degree you're not going to go far in the dog-eat dog world of the job maket.  

My parents never went to college.  In the 70's you didn't need a college degree.  The job standards were a lot lower back then.  Now in the " oughts?(Is this the name of this decade?) you need one.

I agree with you that you don't need half the general ed crap.  Why the HELL do I need to take several levels of math when I really don't need it.  FWIW I am a recreation therapy major.

As far as professors go, you're basically usually taking a stab in the dark.  I currently attend a two year college, and most of the profs are very caring individuals that are there when you need them and understanding of what you need.  The rest...well let's just say they're the opposite. I think that two year colleges are better because most of the profs think of you as a person rather than a name on a roster.

I am going to transfer to a four year school at some point, and quite frankly, it scares me.  My sister went to the University of Nebraska, and I have heard stories of 200+ students in one class, almost unaccessable professors, and basically uncaring professors.  

YMMV.

My college experience seems to be quite different then some of the other experience's in this thread.

All of my classes were taught by the actual professor; we only had teaching assistants in a small number of classes and the TA's general role was to provide help outside of the professor's office hours.  98% of our faculty had doctrates or the highest degree in their field.  The 2% that did not generally were very accomplished in their professional career before they started to teach.

I found college to be a very helpful experience.  It is true that some of the things you learn in college, you might be able to learn through on the job training.  However, there are a number of things that you learn in college that you would not have learned in on the job training.

Also, I think that college is a helpful experience because it lets the student explore many different fields.  Coming out of high school, I did not really have any idea of what career field I wanted to work in.  I thought that I wanted to do something business related.  I went to college and I had the opportunity to take classes in some of the various aspects of business (management, marketing, finance, law, etc.).  However, during my time at college, I also realized that I really enjoyed communications, so I added communications as a double major.  I got really involved in the campus radio broadcasts of football games, and I even ran the weekly broadcasts as executive producer for two years.  The summer that I attended summer school, a fellow student and I basically had the opportunity to run the entire radio station.  It is true that I might have been able to get these experiences through on the job training, but it might have taken me much longer to receive the same level of responsibility.  

Also, one of the ideas behind college is that you do get exposed to many different areas while you are there.  This allows you to learn more about a particular field prior to starting a career in that field.  Also, college can help you realize that you may not enjoy a field that you had previously considering.  I don't really think that this type of experience would be as easy if you were solely relying upon on the job training.

As far as the varied scope of college classes that one is required to take, I do not really have a major problem with that.  As I mentioned above, I believe that one of the primary purposes of college is to give the student an exposure to many different areas.  If a student were allowed to just primarily take classes in their major they would never get this exposure.  I added my communications major as a result of a class that I would have never taken if I was not required to take a class in that particular area.  I would have never decided that I enjoyed the law if I had not been required to take a political science class.  I also would have never added a political science minor if I had not been required to take that class.  Some of the most enjoyable classes that I have taken were classes that were outside of my majors.

If you are wanting to pursue certain professional careers, college is a must.  It may have been possible at one time to become a doctor or a lawyer through on the job training.  Technically it is still possible to become a lawyer through on the job training.  However, if you look at the percentage of people who sit for a state bar based upon on the job training, the percentage of those that pass the bar is miniscule.  Even those that pass the bar may have a difficult time finding another job, other then the one in which they received the training, for a number of years until they have been in practice for a great deal of time.

Even with law school, a wide variety of experiences is very helpful.  I went to lawschool wanting to be a corporate lawyer because of my prior background.  However, after working as a commonwealth's attorney last summer and some of my courses, I want to be a commonwealth's attorney.  I never thought that I would be good at that type of work until I had to take a trial advocacy class.

I do believe that it is not necessary for everyone to go to college, especially those that do not wish to do so.  There are some careers that a person can pursue and be quite successful in without a college degree.  There are a number of people that have become millionares without college degrees.  However, the way that the job market is currently, without a college degree, a person can be locked out of many fields.  Do I think that it is right that a college degree is required before a person is even interviewed in some instances?  No, I think that a person who did not graduate from college but has extensive experience in that area should be considered if they are qualified.  Unfortunately, that is not generally the case.  

College degrees are starting to lose some of their value as more and more people start to attend college.  This is the reason that you are seeing graduate school enrollment increase across the board.  Graduate degrees are one of the ways that an individual can differentiate themselves from others in their chosen field.  Indeed it seems like it has gotten to the point that a college degree now is basically what a high school degree was 20 or so years ago.

By the way, I could perform most, if not all, of those literacy skills listed in the first post by the time that I finished junior high.  Most likely, I could actually perform those skills even earlier, but I do not recall exactly so I did not want to underestimate.  I think that the lack of those basic skills has to do with the increasing pressure upon the teachers in public schools to have a high percentage of students pass the applicable state tests.  As a result, teachers have increasingly started to teach towards those topics that are covered on the tests at the cost of other topics which may prove to be more relevant in every day life.

Quoted: We live in a world where a piece of paper means everything.  Particularly to employers.  It's incredible to me that a myriad of college grads can't even spell or use proper grammar.   College degrees are overrated, IMO.  Sure, it's nice to have one, specifically to prepare for today's job market, but it's simply silly to dismiss someone who's applying for a job, based on a lack of that piece of paper.  I've seen so many talented individuals turned down for a job simply because they don't have that MBA!

You have a choice in what type of degree you want to get.  "English literature" degrees are pretty f*cking useless, likewise "Women's studies", "Chicano studies", "African-American studies", and similar drivel.

Engineering, mathematics, chemistry, physics . . . useful.  I wouldn't want someone without an engineering degree designing bridges, especially since even trained engineers still build Tacoma Narrows Memorial Bridges from time to time.

Quoted: You have a choice in what type of degree you want to get.  "English literature" degrees are pretty f*cking useless, likewise "Women's studies", "Chicano studies", "African-American studies", and similar drivel. Engineering, mathematics, chemistry, physics . . . useful.  I wouldn't want someone without an engineering degree designing bridges, especially since even trained engineers still build Tacoma Narrows Memorial Bridges from time to time.

Most college degrees are worthless.

Seems the best areas are medical, law, teaching, engineering, etc.

Still doesn't explain why American college students can't perform tasks that a 10th grader should be easily able to do.

According to the article even the dumb college graduates are leagues ahead of the rest of the adult population.  That's what's truly scary.

Quoted: Quoted: You have a choice in what type of degree you want to get.  "English literature" degrees are pretty f*cking useless, likewise "Women's studies", "Chicano studies", "African-American studies", and similar drivel. Engineering, mathematics, chemistry, physics . . . useful.  I wouldn't want someone without an engineering degree designing bridges, especially since even trained engineers still build Tacoma Narrows Memorial Bridges from time to time. Most college degrees are worthless. Seems the best areas are medical, law, teaching, engineering, etc. Still doesn't explain why American college students can't perform tasks that a 10th grader should be easily able to do.

simply because a large majority of students are in liberal arts. I am sorry, but liberal arts is a joke in this country at most schools. At my school, UT Austin, you may have students that can write 100 pages for their political science classes that contain no original thought. Their grammar and vocabulary may be excellent, but they have not learned how to express their own ideas, they know merely how to regurgitate other people's ideas in a manner that is not infringing the boundary of plagiarism.

We rank in the teens on actually ability in the fields of science and mathematics

well, most of the countries that are performing "better" than us do something that most of us here on this board would never think is appropriate:

CHEATING!

yep, you heard it, and I am not afraid to get in trouble for not being politically correct; Asians cheat, screw over, and generally are destroying the academic system. While US students might plagiarize in the arts, Asian students plagiarize in the sciences, as well as falsify their info. I have yet to meet a Indian,Chinese or Japanese national that hasn't cheated or stolen someone elses work, and this is in undergraduate degrees.

It isn't hard to score in the top 5 internationally when you have the answers to the test memorized already.

EDIT: also, have you considered the possibility that US students may not perform well on these tests because they don't try? Hard to give a damn about a test that doesn't affect you in any way.

Quoted: If you look at the College or University system, it's really a scam.  All they really want is your money.  Completely devoid of any curricula that may actually teach students a trade or special skill.  Offering only that, which may or may not be transferable and/or useless for future endeavors.

That's one of the more retarded things I've read on arfcom in a while

Where do you think all the innovation in the U.S. comes from?  All the developments at NASA, Jet Propulsion Lab, Boeing, Lockeed, Monsanto, General Electric?  Computer technology, biotech?  Pharmaceuticals?  Military technology?  Communications?  

Where do you think all of those people got educated?   They just woke up one morning with all the knowledge and training to develop communications sattelites and how to decode the human genome?  Or is your argument that all the people who developed new technology and products in the U.S. are just foreigners who are here visiting?



"All they really want is your money"???  Really?  Big state school that kick ass academically (like Michigan, Michigan State, Texas, Maryland, Penn State, etc - just to name a few) just want your money???  What are all these state schools doing with their amazing riches from gouging the poor college students?

And, by the way, even very expensive private schools aren't necessarily shoveling in the big bucks.  For example, the top MBA programs in the U.S. (which means in the world) tend to LOSE money, not make it - despite charging about $30K a year in tuition.

oops

You mean I got ripped off by getting a BS in cage fighting?

Im not surprised

My college experiance was limited to 36 units.  I regularly missed class, did the homework during class, didnt participate in class discussions, and never really felt I had a good grasp of the subject matter.  I spell like shit and suck at math. Yet I have a 4.0 college GPA. That's a real problem.  IMO I deserved no better than a D in any class.

In short what I learned at college was if you paid yo money and showed up most of the time you would not only pass, but you got A's. I cant help but believe it was all about the $$$.

Ironicly I learned more math skills in the Marine Corp than in High School and my brief stint in college combined.

Quoted: My college experiance was limited to 36 units.  I regularly missed class, did the homework during class, didnt participate in class discussions, and never really felt I had a good grasp of the subject matter.  I spell like shit and suck at math. Yet I have a 4.0 college GPA. That's a real problem.  IMO I deserved no better than a D in any class. In short what I learned at college was if you paid yo money and showed up most of the time you would not only pass, but you got A's. I cant help but believe it was all about the $$$. Ironicly I learned more math skills in the Marine Corp than in High School and my brief stint in college combined.

while this may be true at some schools, it varies hugely from college to college and major to major.  here, i work pretty damn hard and am lucky to pull B's.

Quoted: This is what gets me: Complex literary tasks: interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school. Moderately challenging literary tasks. identifying a location on a map, calculating the cost of ordering office supplies or consulting a reference guide to figure out which foods contain a particular vitamin. Children should be able to easily do the moderately challenging tasks by 6th grade and the complex tasks by the end of middle school (8th grade).  Yet college students can't.

I believe the results are severly scewed. I believe the sources for the test came mostly from Florida State