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Posted: 1/19/2006 12:49:53 PM EDT
I recently heard on the news about a "new weapon" called an EFP, or Explosively Formed Penetrator, which is being used by insurgents in Iraq against our vehicles. It is essentially a shaped charge with an extremely long standoff. Basically a conical or hemispherical metal plate, backed with high explosives is aimed (like a parabolic microphone) at a target and detonated. The explosives turn the metal (or sometimes plastic) inside out, sort of extruding it into a thin, white-hot linear projectile, and propel it at the target at velocities over mach 6.
I have a "little black book" which was a US TM or FM during Vietnam which shows how to make these things. My question is, what's new about these? New materials? Can anyone elaborate further? Any pics of the damage caused by these things?
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 2:23:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 2:24:06 PM EDT by Special-K]
I have heard of these refered to as "Off route mines", set up off of a road with a command detonation or tripwire. It would then shoot into the side of a vehicle - or into the roof if placed in a building or tree - possible damaging or even killing a tank or APC. We are now using them in the arty dropped "smart munitions" to home in on and then kill tanks and the like.


-K
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:29:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:29:50 PM EDT by Ross]
It's new to the media, which needs to show that the terrorists are somehow "winning", otherwise we won't loose in Iraq. The idea of representing a decades old improvised weapon as new, and giving it a three letter name, plants the seed in John Q Dumas, who has no idea what it all means anyway, that somehow the situation's all hopeless.

"Oh my God! Do you see what we're up against!?"

If you can't sell ad space, you can't make money. It's what the American media is all about.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:33:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
It's new to the media, which needs to show that the terrorists are somehow "winning", otherwise we won't loose in Iraq. The idea of representing a decades old improvised weapon as new, and giving it a three letter name, plants the seed in John Q Dumas, who has no idea what it all means anyway, that somehow the situation's all hopeless.

"Oh my God! Do you see what we're up against!?"

If you can't sell ad space, you can't make money. It's what the American media is all about.



+1
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:38:18 PM EDT
Didn't someone off a German diplomat with one of those? Copper plate in a bookbag, backed by HE and hanging off the handlebars of a bicycle? I think they used one of those convenience store light beam doorbell things as a trigger...

The copper travels laterally at about 1/2 the burn speed of the HE....
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:38:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:39:46 PM EDT by STLRN]
There are whole bunch of types from various manufactures in use right now. Some vary small to some very large (no-coherent penetrators) What do you expect we harden our vehicle from frag, so the enemy reacts. It is the nature of war.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:40:35 PM EDT
look up "fire ant" weapons system..

Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:42:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:58:16 PM EDT by offctr]
Not really new IIRC the Red Brigades or the Bader Meinhof gang used the same thing to assassinate the president of the Deutche Bank in the 70's. Largely a satchel charge with a copper plate in the direction of the target, detonated by photocell detection or remote control. placement and aiming are critical otherwise the "projectile" flies off harmlessly or loses velocity fairly quickly. Easy to make IF you have the right materiels and the right technical skills. Find the guy whose making em (checnian most likely) or dry up the materiels(reliable high order plastic explosive and fairly thick 1/4-3/8 in copper or other fairly maleable metal, not al or lead and most steel/iron is not suitable) and they will dry up quick.

BTW keep in mind that if the media sitting in the bar at the hotel bagdad heard "someone" say that the insurgents were now using these --it will be reported as they are in fact in widespread use even if NONE have actually been detonated. Once the Toledo Pycaune reports this CNN,ABC NBC CBS and the NYT will quote "media sources" as reporting widespread use of these and that there is "no Known defense" "inadequate body armor" and "not enough armoured vehicles" as well as repeating "no plan" "pullout now" mantra's


ETA --sorry my mistake it was the Red army faction and it was 1989



Assassination of German Bank Chairman, November 30, 1989: The Red Army assassinated Deutsche Bank Chairman Alfred Herrhausen in Frankfurt.


Red Army Faction (RAF)

Description: The small and disciplined RAF is the successor to the Baader-Meinhof Gang, which originated in the student protest movement in the 1960s. Ideology is an obscure mix of Marxism and Maoism; committed to armed struggle. Organized into hardcore cadres that carry out terrorist attacks and a network of supporters who provide logistic and propaganda support. Has survived despite numerous arrests of top leaders over the years.

Activities: Bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, and robberies. With decline of world communism, has had trouble recruiting replacements for jailed members. Now concentrating on domestic targets, particularly officials involved in German or European unification and German security and justice officials. Carried out one operation in 1993, destroying a new prison with 600 pounds of commercial explosives. Police shootout with two members ended in death of GSG-9 officer and group member Wolfgang Grams. Group temporarily galvanized afterward. RAF has targeted US and NATO facilities in the past. During Gulf war, RAF shot up US Embassy in Bonn with assault rifle rounds. There were no casualties, however.

Strength: Ten to 20, plus several hundred supporters.

Location/Area of Operation: Germany.

External Aid: Self-sustaining, but during Baader-Meinhof period received support from Middle Eastern terrorists. East Germany gave logistic support, sanctuary, and training during the 1980s.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:47:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By offctr:
Not really new IIRC the Red Brigades or the Bader Meinhof gang used the same thing to assassinate the president of the Deutche Bank in the 70's. Largely a satchel charge with a copper plate in the direction of the target, detonated by photocell detection or remote control. placement and aiming are critical otherwise the "projectile" flies off harmlessly or loses velocity fairly quickly. Easy to make IF you have the right materiels and the right technical skills. Find the guy whose making em (checnian most likely) or dry up the materiels(reliable high order plastic explosive and fairly thick 1/4-3/8 in copper or other fairly maleable metal, not al or lead and most steel/iron is not suitable) and they will dry up quick.



I believe that is a platter charge vice an EFP.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:49:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 3:55:08 PM EDT by SJSAMPLE]

Originally Posted By manowar669:
I recently heard on the news about a "new weapon" called an EFP, or Explosively Formed Penetrator, which is being used by insurgents in Iraq against our vehicles. It is essentially a shaped charge with an extremely long standoff. Basically a conical or hemispherical metal plate, backed with high explosives is aimed (like a parabolic microphone) at a target and detonated. The explosives turn the metal (or sometimes plastic) inside out, sort of extruding it into a thin, white-hot linear projectile, and propel it at the target at velocities over mach 6.
I have a "little black book" which was a US TM or FM during Vietnam which shows how to make these things. My question is, what's new about these? New materials? Can anyone elaborate further? Any pics of the damage caused by these things?



Edited because you're already familiar with shaped-charges.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:51:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By STLRN:

Originally Posted By offctr:
Not really new IIRC the Red Brigades or the Bader Meinhof gang used the same thing to assassinate the president of the Deutche Bank in the 70's. Largely a satchel charge with a copper plate in the direction of the target, detonated by photocell detection or remote control. placement and aiming are critical otherwise the "projectile" flies off harmlessly or loses velocity fairly quickly. Easy to make IF you have the right materiels and the right technical skills. Find the guy whose making em (checnian most likely) or dry up the materiels(reliable high order plastic explosive and fairly thick 1/4-3/8 in copper or other fairly maleable metal, not al or lead and most steel/iron is not suitable) and they will dry up quick.



I believe that is a platter charge vice an EFP.



I was thinking it was the same thing IE the platter or plate is formed by the explosion into a large "bullet" shaped projectile and cuts like butter due to its velocity despite being made of fairly soft metal
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:51:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:51:48 PM EDT
I saw a show on the Discovery Channel once that talked about those. They made one and tested it out on an "armored car" as it drove by. The car was about 50 feet away from the device when it was set off. It shot that heavy metal plate right through the car.....pretty much cutting it in half. It was insane! Talk about devistation.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:54:26 PM EDT
Yes, I believe you are right, the platter charge and the Misznay Schardin charges are low tech EFP, compared to the lens variant that produce a slug similar to a long rod penetrator.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:55:16 PM EDT
Here is a nice link explaining EFP EFP

EFP's work off the Misznay-Schardin effect.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 3:55:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
They are coming in from Iran.

British forces found a number with Iranian .Gov Ordnance markings after a dozen or so attacks on British convoys...


ANdy



While quite a few are, especially in the southern region, there are allot of more sources than just that.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:06:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/19/2006 4:07:50 PM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:08:42 PM EDT
TF Troy put out a good brief on the EFP threat last month allot of them do come in through that route, but its not the only source.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:16:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:19:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:20:23 PM EDT
Is this not the same idea for the RPG-7 warhead? A particle tip backed by high explosive, to be set in motion on contact with armor.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:22:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:25:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
Didn't someone off a German diplomat with one of those? Copper plate in a bookbag, backed by HE and hanging off the handlebars of a bicycle? I think they used one of those convenience store light beam doorbell things as a trigger...

The copper travels laterally at about 1/2 the burn speed of the HE....


Alfred Herrhausen was his name.

www.securitydriver.com/aic/stories/article-46.html




Aftermath of that attack...

www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/7/7714/7714_1.jpg



Ayup, that's the one. Nasty shit. Fairly simple and VERY effective.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:31:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:32:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
Didn't someone off a German diplomat with one of those? Copper plate in a bookbag, backed by HE and hanging off the handlebars of a bicycle? I think they used one of those convenience store light beam doorbell things as a trigger...

The copper travels laterally at about 1/2 the burn speed of the HE....


Alfred Herrhausen was his name.

www.securitydriver.com/aic/stories/article-46.html




Aftermath of that attack...

www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/7/7714/7714_1.jpg



Ayup, that's the one. Nasty shit. Fairly simple and VERY effective.



That was a fully armored Mercedes limousine, probably as well protected as an armored HUMVEE.



Yup--figure 4 lbs of copper at ~1/2 the speed of whatever explosive they used...Like a big motherfucking claymore.....
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:41:00 PM EDT
Nothing new under the sun. Though these days, Haji plants them in clusters.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 4:48:26 PM EDT
There is nothing new about EFP's or shaped charges, just like there is nothing new about IED's.

( In fact I think 99% of all explosions used in a non military guise, and a good portion of them in military guise, are IED's considering most are specifically measured out or made up for the particular application. No one breaks out a package saying "For demolition of 18 story buildings only".)

It is just another stupid acronym.

Shaped charges have been in use since WWII, most notably in the panzerfaust and panzershrek anti-armor weapons employed by the Germans.
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