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Posted: 8/7/2001 9:06:03 PM EDT
I got the bug to get another rifle. I'm looking for top accuracy at 300 yards in 308 caliber, it has to be under MOA at 300 yards. I have a Rem 700 that I may send out to NorCal Precision for a full Tactical job (about $1700 plus my rifle), or Robar is just down the road a bit. Anyone else got any good alternatives? I'm tired of factory stock rifles that might be great shooters, but often after trigger work are just average. If I was looking for a hunting rifle 1 to 1.5 MOA would be just fine, but I'm looking for groups half that size this time. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 9:14:46 PM EDT
Is your gun a PSS ?? I've read from a number of people that the PSS with a Jewell trigger is capable of this. Maybe even the shorter LTR ?? I think a PSS can be had for $650-750 easily.
Link Posted: 8/7/2001 9:23:26 PM EDT
Accuracy speaks AR upper in .300 whisper. A bit exotic, but NICE. .222 necked up to .308 calibre. Slow, flat, .30 calibre, hits thumbtacks on demand at 100 yards - OFFHAND! FFZ
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:04:17 PM EDT
Thanks for the replies. My rifle is a Rem 700 VS/LH in 308 Win. It is as close to a PSS as you can get with the Left Hand Action, heavy barrel, HS Precision stock (a bit different shape than the PSS). But if I have learned anything about bone stock factory rifles it is that some shoot very well, and some don't. This one is inconsistient, I get an occasional group of under and inch (at 100 yds), but the average is about 1.25 inches. This with mathc ammo or handloads paintakingly developed. I have tried all the good bullets in all weights from 155 grain Hornaday AMAX, 168 and 175 grain MatchKings. Of course the stock chamber is cut long, but still this can give good accuracy in some factory rifles. To me if it has a heavy barrel it needs to do 3/4 MOA or I dump it. I have had the trigger tuned and it is a crisp 3 pounds now. I am seriously concidering sending it to NorCal Precision, having him do the full tactical job on it and know it will shoot under a half inch when it comes back. All he will use is the action, that gets lots of attention, then he fits new stiff barrel, McMillan stock. Big bucks, but I'm tired of screwing around. BillSP1
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:16:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BillSP1: Thanks for the replies. My rifle is a Rem 700 VS/LH in 308 Win. It is as close to a PSS as you can get with the Left Hand Action, heavy barrel, HS Precision stock (a bit different shape than the PSS). But if I have learned anything about bone stock factory rifles it is that some shoot very well, and some don't. This one is inconsistient, I get an occasional group of under and inch (at 100 yds), but the average is about 1.25 inches. This with mathc ammo or handloads paintakingly developed. I have tried all the good bullets in all weights from 155 grain Hornaday AMAX, 168 and 175 grain MatchKings. Of course the stock chamber is cut long, but still this can give good accuracy in some factory rifles. To me if it has a heavy barrel it needs to do 3/4 MOA or I dump it. I have had the trigger tuned and it is a crisp 3 pounds now. I am seriously concidering sending it to NorCal Precision, having him do the full tactical job on it and know it will shoot under a half inch when it comes back. All he will use is the action, that gets lots of attention, then he fits new stiff barrel, McMillan stock. Big bucks, but I'm tired of screwing around. BillSP1
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Well I can understand your disappointment then. It should be shooting better than that.
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 10:21:41 PM EDT
Tikka
Link Posted: 8/8/2001 11:22:07 PM EDT
Here is Nor-Cal's web site. Don't know anything about them, though. Dakota makes some fine tactical rifles and I am sure there are others out there, but nobody guarantees sub 1/3 MOA accuracy, or under under 1" at 300 yd. IMHO, there are too many variables in shooting a firearm and ammo combination. That is why benchrest competition is still so fierce after 200 plus years. There is no magic bullet/gun combination that will work for everyone in every firearm, every time. [url]www.norcalprecision.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 12:39:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 12:37:24 AM EDT by Jack-B-Nymble]
Originally Posted By BillSP1: This one is inconsistient, I get an occasional group of under and inch (at 100 yds), but the average is about 1.25 inches. This with mathc ammo or handloads paintakingly developed. I have tried all the good bullets in all weights from 155 grain Hornaday AMAX, 168 and 175 grain MatchKings. BillSP1
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Damn Bill, I've got a Savage Model 10 FLP that shoots better than that. Before you run down to wherever and throw money at that rifle, you might try some more painstaking load developement. With lighter projectiles. A lot of stock .308s like bullets that are <150 grains.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 11:47:58 AM EDT
Speaking of Savage 10FLP, I just dumped one in 223 for $225. I have a shooting buddy with a 10FP that shoots fantastic (even with me behind the trigger), so I bought a 10FLP for myself about a year ago. My luck was poor with this one too! I had a $500 Leupold mounted on it and it was poorer than my AR15 with a scope cobbled onto the carry handle. Just in case you are thinking I have not a clue as to how to shoot (and I was beginning to think that mtself), I have a Remingtom 40XB that Is my reference rifle, I can shoot under 1/2" groups with it (100yds) anytime it is not real windy, everytime. (okay, sometimes I screw up and get 3/4" groups). I put one of those butt ugly Choat Super Sniper stocks on the Savage, It did help things a bit, but made the rig so heavy it was not good for s=carrying anymore. You interested in a LH Choat stock for your FLP? New they are $140 or so, I will let this one go for $100. will put it on e-bay in a week so let me know by e-mail. Bill Bill
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 12:07:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2001 12:04:59 PM EDT by Nekkid80]
I went over an ill shooting 700 PSS for a friend. These Police sniper rifles are still production guns. The barrel had a loose piece of stock material wedged between the barrel and forearm. It shot sub MOA after that. I think the HS is a good piece. Maybe it needs a new barrel and truing? Doug
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 12:58:23 PM EDT
Some folks are into planning, sending and waiting, and that's fine. Me, I'm more into instant gratification. Find yourself one of the Sako TRG's in .308 and start shootin.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 1:16:04 PM EDT
Bill, I bought this Model 10 FLP a few months ago, have had it at the range only once. This was my first group at 100 yards, after I got the scope POA with the rifle POI near center. I fired these 5 as quick as I could. The 1rst 3 went into something like .10", then the group opened up to .625", as close as I can make it. Some of the other loads did not do so well, some were comparable. I also just got a .50 not to long ago, have been busy setting that up. But, I do love this Savage. I got lucky, it has a fair trigger too. When I get my .50 ready to do some real yardage, this FLP is going too. I was considering the Choate stock, but I will be doing some hunting with this rifle, and I like it just the way it is. [img]wsphotofews.excite.com/037/ve/Mm/T7/f944314.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 1:41:07 PM EDT
You should be able to easy get that rifle to at least 1/2 moa without breaking the bank. Go back to your basics,bedding, scope mounts etc.I swore a long time at one rifle before I found the scope was shifting with each shot.Scrubbed the barrel with USP bore paste lately?Some times "tuning " the action screws with a torque wrench works wonders.For best accuracy you should be talking 3 ounces not pounds for trigger pull(as in jewell).Ive shot several times in a local competition where the stock class requires a factory barrel,and the better guys have hit all 5 eggs with 5 shots at 300 yds,which is around 1/3moa,all 308 REM 700's. Remember the interesting part of a "one hole" rifle is getting it there.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 4:04:32 PM EDT
Jerry Rice at NorCal and George Gardner at Gardner Precision are two of the best in the industry when it comes to precision rifles. You didn't say what kind of accuracy you were looking for. Most Rem 700 PSS, Savage Tactical or Winchester 70 Stealth can probably give you sub MOA. However if you're looking for 1/2 MOA or better you will most likely have to have some work done on your rifle. If that's the case you could hardly do better than the 2 guys I mentioned above.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 4:44:45 PM EDT
If the bedding,mts,screws,scope are OK then you need either a new match chamber or a rebarrel. You will get out much cheaper that way.The PSS is touted and hyped but is still a factory barrel and chamber.The triggers and action are great with work. cpermd
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 5:14:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FreeFireZone: Accuracy speaks AR upper in .300 whisper. A bit exotic, but NICE. .222 necked up to .308 calibre. Slow, flat, .30 calibre, hits thumbtacks on demand at 100 yards - OFFHAND! FFZ
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Tell me again how you get slow and flat. I don't have a degree in physics, but have studied it for a year or two. Last time I checked you need a high velocity to get a flat trajectory. I think it's that whole gravity thing. It pulls things to the ground.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 6:57:23 PM EDT
Bill, I don't doubt your troubles, but have you thought about sending the rifle back to Remington along with a detailed description of the problem? I believe that I'd attack things from that angle before I'd plunk down $1700. I mention this because a few years ago, in the Cast Bullet Journal #196, there was a guy who had a similar problem (with a 700 V). He found that the throat was cut AFU with the rifling beginning almost 0.25" ahead on one side of the throat. Once this was corrected, it shot sub-MOA with most everything that was run through it. The throat irregularity wasn't found until a slug was made and it was inspected with a borescope. I realize some are too closed minded to allow the factory to warranty things, but mistakes can be made. FWIW, I also have a left-handed 700 VS in .308 and have been getting sub MOA groups with UMC 147 grain loads and handloads. The rifle has not had any modifications performed, not even a trigger job.
Link Posted: 8/9/2001 8:08:26 PM EDT
BillSP1, I have shot a lot of .308 wins over a lot of years, I may still have a few around here somewhere as it is and probably always will be my favorite cartridge. I have a standard starting point whenever I start working with a different .308 win I always start with a once fired win case full lenth resized, a Federal 210 large rifle primer, 42.0 Grains of BLC 2, and a 168 Gr. Sierra Match King seated to 2.800, (this is a very mild load but naturally use your own judgment.)It seems to work well in most of the .308 wins I've worked with. If this doesn't seem to help I would probably try a scope that I knew was problem free, and take a look at the bedding block to make sure there was no build up of stock material around the edges which would interfer with the reciever to bedding block interface. I know how frustrating this can be I just parted with a .308 Varmint rifle that drove me nuts. I am picking up a short action this weekend and starting my next .308 ASAP. Hope this helps, Rabon...
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 4:56:33 AM EDT
Once again a sincere Thank you to all of you who provided great advice. Let me clarify a bit here. This rifle is not bad, it does shoot near MOA with the right loads, jus not all the time. I have tried two known good scopes and two different scope base/rings sets just to make sure it was not scope related. It has been out of the HS stock when the trigger was tuned and the lug area looked okay (but I really did not know in detail what to look for). I torqued the stock bolts to 65 inch pounds as directed, then tried 50 and 60 in/lbs as well, seemed to make no difference. At this time I suspect the barrel is just not optimal. Again if I was a deer hunter this rifle could be deemed 100%, but I'm looking for more than hunting accuracy now. Actually I'm looking forward to getting it tricked out. I was lucky in regards to accuracy with my Browning A-Bolt hunting rifle, that skinny barrel lightweight shoots Nosler Partitions in 30-06 like a target rifle should right out of the box. I trust a good 'smith can rebarrel my 308, tune the action, and make me happy, Going to go with a third set of base/rings, this time Badgers. Thanks again, Bill
Link Posted: 8/10/2001 10:47:59 PM EDT
WAIT! STOP! WHAT EVER YOU DO, DO ONE THING FIRST!!! Check the crown on that rifle. The last 3 Rems that I bought , I had to cut the last inch off because it looked like one of the lands was worn off at the time of crowning at the factory. Use a 10x loupe with a Q-tip pushed down the bore about 1/2", shine a light down the bore at the Q-tip. The reflection will show if there is a problem and you can see it clearly with the loupe. I just bought another PSS in 308 that the owner couldn't get to shoot right, checked the bore and it had a land worn off right at the crown. I chucked it up in a lathe, cut 1" off, recrowned it and took it out to the range with some of my M1A loads(168SMK with 40 gr of 4895) and shot groups that were in the 1/2" area all day long. I bedded it 2 weeks ago and worked up a load for it and now shoots in the .200 to .250 range@ 100. Showed the old boy I bought it from and he about $hit bricks, all he could get was 1-1/2" with hand loads. CHECK THE CROWN FIRST!!!!!!!! HTH KenS
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