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Posted: 1/17/2006 2:44:43 PM EDT
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:56:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?



Thats only effective against older IR SAMs. Newer models will actually home in on it. Nothing works 100%--its all about lowering your chances of getting hit. And even with the IR jammer, exhuast supressors, and flares, there are still MANPADS that have a UV backup that tracks the 'hole' in the sky left by an aircraft
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:56:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ring:
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?



There is/ could be alot more involved than that....

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:58:20 PM EDT
An AH-64 was shot down?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:08:05 PM EDT
looks like a IR missle to me video
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:11:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 3:18:31 PM EDT by ImplementOfWar]
Could of just been a direct fire rocket.

You can line up a rocket at that short range and expect to hit a helicopter.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:15:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 3:17:11 PM EDT by 0612Devil]
I don't think that vid was from the apache. I think it was from the kiowa getting hit earlier...


ETA: I'm sure it was guided, that's quite a long shot for an unguided rocket. Plus, I think you can hear the lock-tone prior to launch...

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheFreepster:
looks like a IR missle to me video



link doesn't work
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:17:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 3:21:54 PM EDT by 1Gunner]
what range?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:17:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:24:27 PM EDT
you have to visually aquire the missle to perform the maneuver. at bare minimum you need to know about where its coming from. if youre lucky you establish a hover 90degrees to the anticipated track of the missled and attempt to visually aquire the missle then execute the mauever. my dad explained it to me and i have done the maneuver a few times just for fun. might be old school though. maybe theres a better way now.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:38:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
I don't think that vid was from the apache. I think it was from the kiowa getting hit earlier...


ETA: I'm sure it was guided, that's quite a long shot for an unguided rocket. Plus, I think you can hear the lock-tone prior to launch...




I think you're on the right track. I definitly looks like they shot down something, can't really tell what it is though. Does anyone know what kind of SAM system they used, Igla?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:07:22 PM EDT
I wonder why the chopper's buddy didn't home down the other direction from the rocket trail and bring instant vengeance upon the opposition. Fishing with live bait was a common Russian anti-Stinger tactic in Afghanistan.

NTM
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:34:10 PM EDT
i would think that wherever theres an apache theres a Kiowa that can spot a smoke trail or something.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:40:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 4:46:22 PM EDT by ImplementOfWar]

Originally Posted By 1Gunner:
what range?



The range the rocket/missile hit the helicopter?

I would say .1 to .3 miles.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:46:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 4:47:52 PM EDT by Special-K]
Allah hulakbar! Allah hulakbar!

ROP indeed.

Wasn't there a missile that was manually guided? I want to say the Blow Pipe, but I'm not sure - and that was British IIRC.


-K
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:52:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
i would think that wherever theres an apache theres a Kiowa that can spot a smoke trail or something.



Rules of engagement probably take into consideration the missile was fired from an area with civilians within 100 miles and, therefore, obliterating the area of the shot was a no-no.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:53:22 PM EDT
Remember what happen in the story Blackhawk Down? Unguided RPGs brought down 2 choppers.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:57:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
Remember what happen in the story Blackhawk Down? Unguided RPGs brought down 2 choppers.

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:33:45 PM EDT
An Apache was shot down in Iraq by a MANPADS team that fired from directly beneath in a built up area. Happened during the initial invasion or shortly after.

My neighbor told me about it. He was a 3ID Apache pilot and knew the crew (KIA). He told me they had seen the techniqe a few times and there was almost no time to react.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:49:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 3:52:08 AM EDT by Ross]

Originally Posted By Ring:
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?



First of all, there's no confirmation about the missle, and if so what type it was. Other witnesses on the ground saw no missle, and stated the Apache was on fire during flight, and then crashed and slightly afterwards large exlposions were heard.

Latest word on the footage is it's not of this shootdown, but not to discount a missle brining the aircraft down. The crash is under investigation, but it's leaning (heavily) towards enemy action.

The BIG propaganda coup for any of the terrorist groups is to claim an Apache shootdown. Two different groups have claimed it, and if you were a terrorist group, it would be wise to keep shitty footage of a shootdown that's hard to see on tap so when an Apache goes down for any reason, you can throw it on the internet and claim it as your shoot down. Propaganda is a weapon as well.

As for the "disco ball", when we first got them we had a Cobra on patrol equipped with one and running it on the boarder with then Czechlosovakia. A Czech Mig-17 attacked the Cobra from the other side of the boader and fired an Atoll air-to-air missle at it. The missle didn't guide. The incident was repeated the next day with the same results. Intel figured they just wanted to find out if it actually worked. Crap like that happened on the Borders (in Europe and especially in Korea) all the time.

While it's workings are obviously classified, think of it as a jammer just like a radio jammer. Sometimes you might be able to pick out the actual brodcast you're trying to hear anyway. Same deal with the IRCM. It doesn't work on radio obviously, and I'm not telling what it works on or EXACTLY how, but the principle is the same. The IRCM may be going, but it's not 100% with anything. The newer the seeker, the easier time the missle has "hearing" the original radio brodcast. That's why they still use other countermeasures like flares, paint, flight techniques, etc.

Think about it, if the IRCM was perfect, we wouldn't be bothering with the other countermeasures would we?

So far we (Army Aviation) have flown nearly 1,000,000 hours (yeah, one million) in the combat zone and have had 23 aircraft lost for all reasons that resulted in fatalities. That record is actually slightly better than what we loose in training in peacetime for the same hours.

A third of those hours have been flown by Blackhawks (which are the most numerous), followed by Apaches, then OH-58D's, then Chinooks. As a side note, overall we've maintained above an average of 85% Operational Readiness rate (which is about 10% better than peacetime) and our cost is averaging $3400 per flight hour for the fleet. {ALL statistics are cleared for public distribution, no OPSEC concerns on any of these numbers}

The hardest working bastard is the OH-58D, who are flying more hours per airframe than any other in theater. It averages to around 62 hours per aircraft per month, which is about four times the rate of flying in peacetime training. The Blackhawk and Apache are running about three times the peacetime training rate. The Chinook is under that, though well above it's normal rate.

There are about 500 Army helicopters in theater right now. About 270 UH-60's, 170 AH-64s, 80 OH-58Ds, and 50 CH-47s (though not exact figures, this also is cleared for public distribution).


i would think that wherever theres an apache theres a Kiowa that can spot a smoke trail or something.



The OH-58D and the AH-64 belong to different type units. These days the 58Ds belong to the AirCav Troops and the AH-64 to the Attack Helicopter Companies. The AirCav Troops are part of the Cav Squadron, whereas the Attack Companies are part of the Attack Battalion(s). While they may be in the same area and operate together once in a while, they're owned by two different units so it's not that common that they'd be in the same place. I will NOT get into tactics of deployment for each type in theater due to OPSEC, but I can say you'd usually not see them together. The Attack Battalion no longer has OH-58's of it's own.


Wasn't there a missile that was manually guided? I want to say the Blow Pipe, but I'm not sure - and that was British IIRC.

There are actually a couple IIRC, but Blowpipe is indeed one of them. They are British, though they've been sold to Saudi Arabia and a small batch made it to Afghanistan during the Soviet era on purpose. I doubt those would be operational, and Blowpipe actually takes more training than the IR MANPADS.

One last thing (sorry it's so long). MANPortableAirDefenseSystems (MANPADS) are designed specifically to do this exact thing. Their entire purpose in life is to shoot down low flying aircraft, especially helicopters. When you specifically design a weapon for only one type of target in a specific enviroment, it's usually very lethal and hard to defeat. Most of what Iraq had could be countered by what we had invaded with, but you have to figure it's only a matter of time before other adversaries outside Iraq start introducing newer stuff.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:09:47 AM EDT
It's no secret on how those things work...

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:34:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
It's no secret on how those things work...




I suppose so, but they were when I was flying helicopters and since they said I couldn't say anything about what I knew when I got out, or they'd chop my head off and put it in a safe, I figure I just won't bother.

If the TM's (which were marked "Secret" back then) are all unclassified and on the net by now, then they can look it up themselves. It's not my place to give details either way.

Since I've seen some pretty bizarre explanations on how the 144 works in previous threads, odds are someone found my explanation to be useful
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:37:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:

Originally Posted By Ring:
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?



First of all, there's no confirmation about the missle, and if so what type it was. Other witnesses on the ground saw no missle, and stated the Apache was on fire during flight, and then crashed and slightly afterwards large exlposions were heard.

Latest word on the footage is it's not of this shootdown, but not to discount a missle brining the aircraft down. The crash is under investigation, but it's leaning (heavily) towards enemy action.

The BIG propaganda coup for any of the terrorist groups is to claim an Apache shootdown. Two different groups have claimed it, and if you were a terrorist group, it would be wise to keep shitty footage of a shootdown that's hard to see on tap so when an Apache goes down for any reason, you can throw it on the internet and claim it as your shoot down. Propaganda is a weapon as well.

As for the "disco ball", when we first got them we had a Cobra on patrol equipped with one and running it on the boarder with then Czechlosovakia. A Czech Mig-17 attacked the Cobra from the other side of the boader and fired an Atoll air-to-air missle at it. The missle didn't guide. The incident was repeated the next day with the same results. Intel figured they just wanted to find out if it actually worked. Crap like that happened on the Borders (in Europe and especially in Korea) all the time.

While it's workings are obviously classified, think of it as a jammer just like a radio jammer. Sometimes you might be able to pick out the actual brodcast you're trying to hear anyway. Same deal with the IRCM. It doesn't work on radio obviously, and I'm not telling what it works on or EXACTLY how, but the principle is the same. The IRCM may be going, but it's not 100% with anything. The newer the seeker, the easier time the missle has "hearing" the original radio brodcast. That's why they still use other countermeasures like flares, paint, flight techniques, etc.

Think about it, if the IRCM was perfect, we wouldn't be bothering with the other countermeasures would we?

So far we (Army Aviation) have flown nearly 1,000,000 hours (yeah, one million) in the combat zone and have had 23 aircraft lost for all reasons that resulted in fatalities. That record is actually slightly better than what we loose in training in peacetime for the same hours.

A third of those hours have been flown by Blackhawks (which are the most numerous), followed by Apaches, then OH-58D's, then Chinooks. As a side note, overall we've maintained above an average of 85% Operational Readiness rate (which is about 10% better than peacetime) and our cost is averaging $3400 per flight hour for the fleet. {ALL statistics are cleared for public distribution, no OPSEC concerns on any of these numbers}

The hardest working bastard is the OH-58D, who are flying more hours per airframe than any other in theater. It averages to around 62 hours per aircraft per month, which is about four times the rate of flying in peacetime training. The Blackhawk and Apache are running about three times the peacetime training rate. The Chinook is under that, though well above it's normal rate.

There are about 500 Army helicopters in theater right now. About 270 UH-60's, 170 AH-64s, 80 OH-58Ds, and 50 CH-47s (though not exact figures, this also is cleared for public distribution).


i would think that wherever theres an apache theres a Kiowa that can spot a smoke trail or something.



The OH-58D and the AH-64 belong to different type units. These days the 58Ds belong to the AirCav Troops and the AH-64 to the Attack Helicopter Companies. The AirCav Troops are part of the Cav Squadron, whereas the Attack Companies are part of the Attack Battalion(s). While they may be in the same area and operate together once in a while, they're owned by two different units so it's not that common that they'd be in the same place. I will NOT get into tactics of deployment for each type in theater due to OPSEC, but I can say you'd usually not see them together. The Attack Battalion no longer has OH-58's of it's own.


Wasn't there a missile that was manually guided? I want to say the Blow Pipe, but I'm not sure - and that was British IIRC.

There are actually a couple IIRC, but Blowpipe is indeed one of them. They are British, though they've been sold to Saudi Arabia and a small batch made it to Afghanistan during the Soviet era on purpose. I doubt those would be operational, and Blowpipe actually takes more training than the IR MANPADS.

One last thing (sorry it's so long). MANPortableAirDefenseSystems (MANPADS) are designed specifically to do this exact thing. Their entire purpose in life is to shoot down low flying aircraft, especially helicopters. When you specifically design a weapon for only one type of target in a specific enviroment, it's usually very lethal and hard to defeat. Most of what Iraq had could be countered by what we had invaded with, but you have to figure it's only a matter of time before other adversaries outside Iraq start introducing newer stuff.




Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:22:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ross:
As for the "disco ball", when we first got them we had a Cobra on patrol equipped with one and running it on the boarder with then Czechlosovakia.



Hey Ross, mind telling what unit you were with? I was a 58 Crew Chief stationed in Katterbach and Illesheim.



The Attack Battalion no longer has OH-58's of it's own.



I guess things have really changed since I got out! No more 2x2 Cav units or Attack Battalions?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 1:52:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By Ross:
As for the "disco ball", when we first got them we had a Cobra on patrol equipped with one and running it on the boarder with then Czechlosovakia.



Hey Ross, mind telling what unit you were with? I was a 58 Crew Chief stationed in Katterbach and Illesheim.



The Attack Battalion no longer has OH-58's of it's own.



I guess things have really changed since I got out! No more 2x2 Cav units or Attack Battalions?



I was in the 1st CAV, then a year in Korea with B/3-501st, then 101st ABN(AA). I actually wasn't on the Czech boarder at the time, I read the account in NADIA's "National Defese" publication. In an advertisement for Hughes of all places. Hughes used to put out a "newsletter" in "National Defense" that was one page long and packed with perfromance information on their products. It was nothing more than a veiled attempt at advertising, but it was damn interesting every month because they had little tidbits of info that you heard about, but didn't have the details until then. Since Hughes was invovled in all sorts of programs, they usually had something good in each issue.

I only managed to get to Germany on REFORGERS unfortunately. Still a great time.

The OH-58C's went due mainly to cost and performance issues. They weren't as good a match for the Apache as they were with the Cobra, and they were getting more expensive to run due to age. I think they still have a half dozen or so in the General Support company.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:56:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jame_Retief:

Originally Posted By Ross:

Originally Posted By Ring:
i would take it that the "disco ball" anti IR dont work so hot?



First of all, there's no confirmation about the missle, and if so what type it was. Other witnesses on the ground saw no missle, and stated the Apache was on fire during flight, and then crashed and slightly afterwards large exlposions were heard.

Latest word on the footage is it's not of this shootdown, but not to discount a missle brining the aircraft down. The crash is under investigation, but it's leaning (heavily) towards enemy action.

The BIG propaganda coup for any of the terrorist groups is to claim an Apache shootdown. Two different groups have claimed it, and if you were a terrorist group, it would be wise to keep shitty footage of a shootdown that's hard to see on tap so when an Apache goes down for any reason, you can throw it on the internet and claim it as your shoot down. Propaganda is a weapon as well.

As for the "disco ball", when we first got them we had a Cobra on patrol equipped with one and running it on the boarder with then Czechlosovakia. A Czech Mig-17 attacked the Cobra from the other side of the boader and fired an Atoll air-to-air missle at it. The missle didn't guide. The incident was repeated the next day with the same results. Intel figured they just wanted to find out if it actually worked. Crap like that happened on the Borders (in Europe and especially in Korea) all the time.

While it's workings are obviously classified, think of it as a jammer just like a radio jammer. Sometimes you might be able to pick out the actual brodcast you're trying to hear anyway. Same deal with the IRCM. It doesn't work on radio obviously, and I'm not telling what it works on or EXACTLY how, but the principle is the same. The IRCM may be going, but it's not 100% with anything. The newer the seeker, the easier time the missle has "hearing" the original radio brodcast. That's why they still use other countermeasures like flares, paint, flight techniques, etc.

Think about it, if the IRCM was perfect, we wouldn't be bothering with the other countermeasures would we?

So far we (Army Aviation) have flown nearly 1,000,000 hours (yeah, one million) in the combat zone and have had 23 aircraft lost for all reasons that resulted in fatalities. That record is actually slightly better than what we loose in training in peacetime for the same hours.

A third of those hours have been flown by Blackhawks (which are the most numerous), followed by Apaches, then OH-58D's, then Chinooks. As a side note, overall we've maintained above an average of 85% Operational Readiness rate (which is about 10% better than peacetime) and our cost is averaging $3400 per flight hour for the fleet. {ALL statistics are cleared for public distribution, no OPSEC concerns on any of these numbers}

The hardest working bastard is the OH-58D, who are flying more hours per airframe than any other in theater. It averages to around 62 hours per aircraft per month, which is about four times the rate of flying in peacetime training. The Blackhawk and Apache are running about three times the peacetime training rate. The Chinook is under that, though well above it's normal rate.

There are about 500 Army helicopters in theater right now. About 270 UH-60's, 170 AH-64s, 80 OH-58Ds, and 50 CH-47s (though not exact figures, this also is cleared for public distribution).


i would think that wherever theres an apache theres a Kiowa that can spot a smoke trail or something.



The OH-58D and the AH-64 belong to different type units. These days the 58Ds belong to the AirCav Troops and the AH-64 to the Attack Helicopter Companies. The AirCav Troops are part of the Cav Squadron, whereas the Attack Companies are part of the Attack Battalion(s). While they may be in the same area and operate together once in a while, they're owned by two different units so it's not that common that they'd be in the same place. I will NOT get into tactics of deployment for each type in theater due to OPSEC, but I can say you'd usually not see them together. The Attack Battalion no longer has OH-58's of it's own.


Wasn't there a missile that was manually guided? I want to say the Blow Pipe, but I'm not sure - and that was British IIRC.

There are actually a couple IIRC, but Blowpipe is indeed one of them. They are British, though they've been sold to Saudi Arabia and a small batch made it to Afghanistan during the Soviet era on purpose. I doubt those would be operational, and Blowpipe actually takes more training than the IR MANPADS.

One last thing (sorry it's so long). MANPortableAirDefenseSystems (MANPADS) are designed specifically to do this exact thing. Their entire purpose in life is to shoot down low flying aircraft, especially helicopters. When you specifically design a weapon for only one type of target in a specific enviroment, it's usually very lethal and hard to defeat. Most of what Iraq had could be countered by what we had invaded with, but you have to figure it's only a matter of time before other adversaries outside Iraq start introducing newer stuff.







Excellent post...
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:23:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 4:25:41 PM EDT by QUIB]

Originally Posted By Ross:
I only managed to get to Germany on REFORGERS unfortunately. Still a great time.



Oh, yea I’ve been on PLEANTY of REFORGERS! Freezing my ASS OFF!!!



The OH-58C's went due mainly to cost and performance issues. They weren't as good a match for the Apache as they were with the Cobra, and they were getting more expensive to run due to age. I think they still have a half dozen or so in the General Support company.


After Desert Storm I was assigned to 2/1 AVN in Katterbach, Germany which I guess was just about one of the last Apache attack Battalions to use 58’s. I was Platoon Sgt. of a Scout Platoon. We had the OH-58CS’s with the Stinger rack on the left side. Ahhh, the old days!
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