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Posted: 1/16/2006 10:05:34 PM EDT
How many gallons of water would you have to put through a jet engine to make it quit engining?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:06:27 PM EDT
Dunno, but the ocean seems effective in stopping running turbines...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:08:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Dunno, but the ocean seems effective in stopping running turbines...




Rivers and lakes too.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:13:32 PM EDT
I watched a show on the Boing 777 and they had the engine on a test stand with
18 2 1/2" fire hoses spraying full force into it, figure 9000 GPM
But it was a really big engine
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:15:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rick458:
I watched a show on the Boing 777 and they had the engine on a test stand with
18 2 1/2" fire hoses spraying full force into it, figure 9000 GPM
But it was a really big engine





Thats alot of water
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:17:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 10:24:17 PM EDT by sta1treeman]
I have heard on the military channel, that rain actually increases the effiency of a jet, it makes for more expansion, thus more thrust? but surely there is a limit, a drop of water will expand 1700 times its origanal volume when heated to 500 degrees. or at least close to that, it is late, and that water expansion ratio is a common firefighting question, not just a drop, any given volume if instantly heated to 500 degrees, steam is what extinguishes most fires by displacing oxygen. rather than direct contact, which puts out fires by cooling. fireman 101. for confined space structural firefighting.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:18:46 PM EDT
You have to remember that as air moves through the compressor, it is heated quite a bit before it ever reaches the burner. Couple the heat with the air currnets, and you end up with pretty effective water vapor maker through out the core. Now through the Fan/Cold Stream, any amount of water isn't a big deal at all.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:27:46 PM EDT
I don't think air expands as much as water when heated to the same temp, but again it is late, to late for technical questions
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:34:48 PM EDT
It depends on various factors, fan speed, EPR, etc.

I did see a pair of large Turbo props flame out once during taxi when the Cpt elected to hit the prop reversers a little too hard near a snow drift. Pretty funny actually. It does NOT inspire the confidence of the flying public.

There have been very few documented in flight flameouts due to water ingestion. The ignitors are selected as a precaution, but the fire is largely self sustaining. The ignitors are also automatic if the engine senses the need for a relight.

I do remember reading about a DC9 (?) which flew into a Thunderstorm and flew out a glider. Probably some hail involved in that one though. Landed on a Levy, and everybody walked away with a good war story.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 11:49:49 PM EDT
87 Gallons per minute.!!!

sorry.... I'll leave now.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:36:59 AM EDT
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:45:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
87 Gallons per minute.!!!

sorry.... I'll leave now.




Might be a good idea.....Someone may find a spider or 87 later.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:51:34 AM EDT
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:52:35 AM EDT
It depends on the size of the engine. Normal procedure for removal of salt encrustation from the T-58 compressor was to spray water from a garden hose into the intake for a minute or so. Once, on a CVN the flight deck guys didn't have a garden hose so they tossed a bucket of water up towards the intake. That flamed us out.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:02:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
It depends on the size of the engine. Normal procedure for removal of salt encrustation from the T-58 compressor was to spray water from a garden hose into the intake for a minute or so. Once, on a CVN the flight deck guys didn't have a garden hose so they tossed a bucket of water up towards the intake. That flamed us out.



A couple years ago one of Native Air Transports medivac Aerospecial Esquirles had a total hydraulic failure and made a hard emergency landing at one of the airports here. Landed so hard that the tailboom snapped off and the skids collapsed and the medic in back injured his spine. The pilot also could not shut the engine off. To get the original patient AND the now injured paramedic out past the still spinning blades the Fire Department used the monitor on the back of their truck and hosed the intake with 1200gpm. Shut that engine down in a few seconds.

News copters got the rescue on film.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:09:36 AM EDT
Remember that the the KC-135 and B-52 use to have water injection for takeoff...

Spooky
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:23:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 6:29:44 AM EDT by txgp17]

Originally Posted By rick458:
I watched a show on the Boing 777 and they had the engine on a test stand with
18 2 1/2" fire hoses spraying full force into it, figure 9000 GPM
But it was a really big engine

The typical flow rate for a 2.5" fire hose is 250 GPM, but it depends largely on discharge pressure and nozzle type. Water will expand to 1,700 times is normal volume when vaporized, but that's at atmsopheric pressure, I don't know what kind of compression pressures are experienced inside the jet, that will affect the temp at which the water vaporizes. The higher the pressure then the higher the temperature will have to be vaporize it.

Also, water will absorb 8,080 btu's of energy per gallon when vaporized, not including the actual temperature change of the water itself. The 8,080 btu's is just what's required to change it from liquid to vapor. So at 9,000 GPM you're looking at a required 73 million BTU's per minute, just to vaporize the water.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:28:57 AM EDT
Volcanic ash will do the trick.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:33:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Volcanic ash will do the trick.



Volcanic ash will do alot of tricks to a plane.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:53:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.



Got any links for that? All I ever saw/read about was "Hellfighters" style explsions to blow the fire out.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:06:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
87 Gallons per minute.!!!



Research has proven this!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:50:34 PM EDT
Would seem to me to depend a lot on the specific engine; many newer turbofans are very-high-bypass, 90-95% IIRC.... you'd have to spray the water right at the nosecone and a lot of it would still get flung out and miss the compressor intake.
~
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:34:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sta1treeman:
I have heard on the military channel, that rain actually increases the effiency of a jet, it makes for more expansion, thus more thrust? but surely there is a limit, a drop of water will expand 1700 times its origanal volume when heated to 500 degrees. or at least close to that, it is late, and that water expansion ratio is a common firefighting question, not just a drop, any given volume if instantly heated to 500 degrees, steam is what extinguishes most fires by displacing oxygen. rather than direct contact, which puts out fires by cooling. fireman 101. for confined space structural firefighting.




I work in the power generation buisness and many gas turbines inject water for power augmentation. Since the air is hot from the compressor a normal rain shower would probably increase efficiency.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:43:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tromatic:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.



Got any links for that? All I ever saw/read about was "Hellfighters" style explsions to blow the fire out.



Naw, the Czech's or some Eastern Euro outfit built some big old jet rig and tried to put out the oil well fires... It was either useless or took forever.
The best way is still to blow 'em, rob to o2 from the flame, and then cap them.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 7:55:19 PM EDT
Also don't forget that a high-bypass turbofan shoves a large amount of water through the fan only and not through the actual turbine engine.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:07:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 8:10:08 PM EDT by DeltaAir423]

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.



Got any links for that? All I ever saw/read about was "Hellfighters" style explsions to blow the fire out.



Naw, the Czech's or some Eastern Euro outfit built some big old jet rig and tried to put out the oil well fires... It was either useless or took forever.
The best way is still to blow 'em, rob to o2 from the flame, and then cap them.




Here's a pic of the T-72 with the Kilmov/Sarkisov RD-33 engines installed




BTW it was the Poles not the Czechs.

ETA it was pretty effective, the vid I saw had them throttle up for around 30 sec and the fire went out.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
How many gallons of water would you have to put through a jet engine to make it quit engining?



Quite a lot, althought it depends on the engine, its operating condition and they type of water (droplets, fog, stream).

One time we had to fresh water rinse an A-7 TF-41 engine, we did not have the intake screen or the adapter for the water nozzel.
The guy in charge went ahead and ran the engine up and then had someone spray water from an inch firehose down the intake.
As full fog on the nozzel the engine "bogged" down, and water ras running out from the tail pipe, but it did not kill the engine.

I watched a crew doing an engine wash on an F-14 with TF-31 engines.
No engine wash cart either.
They used 3 gallon buckets with a mixture of gas path cleaner and water and tossed it down the intake when the engine was at a little more than idle rpms. They killed the engine not once but three times when they tossed the water/cleaner mixture down the intake.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:16:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rick458:
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times



Poor guy...gotta love the noobs!

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:19:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rick458:
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times



You'll know by the time you make your 87th post!

1911fan
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:21:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.



Got any links for that? All I ever saw/read about was "Hellfighters" style explsions to blow the fire out.



Naw, the Czech's or some Eastern Euro outfit built some big old jet rig and tried to put out the oil well fires... It was either useless or took forever.
The best way is still to blow 'em, rob to o2 from the flame, and then cap them.




Here's a pic of the T-72 with the Kilmov/Sarkisov RD-33 engines installed

www.xmsnet.nl/hdejong/jet-tank2.jpg

BTW it was the Poles not the Czechs.

ETA it was pretty effective, the vid I saw had them throttle up for around 30 sec and the fire went out.




that's a bad SOB.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:22:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:41:05 PM EDT by MEI2757935]
I would state that it has a lot to do with they type of burner system the engine has. You basically have 3 types...the second being the most common.

1. Can
2. Annular
3. Can-Annular

I don't know if you have ever seen the spark of the igniter...but it's very impressive. I've seen one go off (on purpose) in a dark room and it lights the whole room up. It was a very large room also. I would even go as far as saying that it could kill you. I have no idea how many amps it produces, but I’m sure it's a lot.

It would take a lot of water to put out the flame. Also keep in mind the newer engines have auto igniter systems that engage in certain conditions. Including...heavy rain, turbulence, windshear, and contaminated runways.

They can take a lot.

Come fly the friendly skies!



ETA: Spelling is not my forte.

ETA x 2: POST 223 BABY!!!!

Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:24:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rick458:
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times



When someone incessantly posts that dumb crap, you may presume he or she is a fucking idiot.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:47:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

Originally Posted By rick458:
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times



When someone incessantly posts that dumb crap, you may presume he or she is a fucking idiot.



sounds like someone's got a case of the mondays!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 9:56:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rick458:
Please for to explain 87 @ ar15.com
unlikely # to see many times



87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87 87
87 87 87 87 87 87 87
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:04:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:07:52 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
Boot And Coots and the other Texas oil well fire fighters didn't put the fires out with a jet engine.

They first started out with the tried and true explosive snuffing trick, then with so many wells burning, they knew they had to speed things up.
With that many wells burning they could experiment a little.

They developed a new method called "smoke stacking".

They cut away the wreckage of the well head, and stick a large diameter length of steel road culvert over the gusher.
The flames come out the top of the culvert like a smoke stack.

Then they shoot a BUTT WAD of a chemical fire depressant in at the bottom of the stack, and this chokes the fire off.
They let it cool a little, and cap it.
It's faster, cheaper, and a LOT safer then explosives.

This is how they put out in a few months, well fires that were estimated to take several YEARS to put out.

I saw a Discovery show about the development of the new Boeing jet liner with that HUGE engine.
One test for possible drowning in rain storms or on flooded runways had them dumping an astounding amount of water into the engine.
I forgot how much but is sure wasn't a few fire hoses, it was shot out of some monster flood device.
The engine just chewed it up and forced it out the rear without missing a beat.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:19:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MEI2757935:
I would state that it has a lot to do with they type of burner system the engine has. You basically have 3 types...the last being the most common.

1. Can
2. Annular
3. Can-Annular

I don't know if you have ever seen the spark of the igniter...but it's very impressive. I've seen one go off (on purpose) in a dark room and it lights the whole room up. It was a very large room also. I would even go as far as saying that it could kill you. I have no idea how many amps it produces, but I’m sure it's a lot.

It would take a lot of water to put out the flame. Also keep in mind the newer engines have auto igniter systems that engage in certain conditions. Including...heavy rain, turbulence, windshear, and contaminated runways.

They can take a lot.

Come fly the friendly skies!



ETA: Spelling is not my forte.

ETA x 2: POST 223 BABY!!!!





Eh I don't know what engines you've been working on, but the only Can-Annular engine I've seen in years is the JT8 series. Everything else I've seen is Annular (P&W 2000, 4000 / CFM-56 / GE CF-6, CF-34 / Rolls Royce RB-211, Trent 800)
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:40:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 10:48:21 PM EDT by MEI2757935]

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By MEI2757935:
I would state that it has a lot to do with they type of burner system the engine has. You basically have 3 types...the last being the most common.

1. Can
2. Annular
3. Can-Annular

I don't know if you have ever seen the spark of the igniter...but it's very impressive. I've seen one go off (on purpose) in a dark room and it lights the whole room up. It was a very large room also. I would even go as far as saying that it could kill you. I have no idea how many amps it produces, but I’m sure it's a lot.

It would take a lot of water to put out the flame. Also keep in mind the newer engines have auto igniter systems that engage in certain conditions. Including...heavy rain, turbulence, windshear, and contaminated runways.

They can take a lot.

Come fly the friendly skies!



ETA: Spelling is not my forte.

ETA x 2: POST 223 BABY!!!!





Eh I don't know what engines you've been working on, but the only Can-Annular engine I've seen in years is the JT8 series. Everything else I've seen is Annular (P&W 2000, 4000 / CFM-56 / GE CF-6, CF-34 / Rolls Royce RB-211, Trent 800)



Yeah you're right. My mistake. I'll correct my original post. I don't work on the engines. I just fly the hunks of metal they are attached to. How about that pay scale going down the shitter? Sorry to hear about all the trouble Delta is having.



ASA ATL?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 12:13:05 AM EDT
payscale has been in the shitter for a while now. Not ASA, Mainline, and yes ATL.


Could be worse though, I could be in EWR, LGA, JFK, BOS, SFO, or LAX
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 12:33:44 AM EDT
Heh heh---that Polish fire-fighting thing is a certain Darwin Gold Award if the brakes ever fail.....
~
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:56:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:
payscale has been in the shitter for a while now. Not ASA, Mainline, and yes ATL.


Could be worse though, I could be in EWR, LGA, JFK, BOS, SFO, or LAX



I guess we can just be happy to have jobs. As long as you love what you do nothing else really matters. Fly safe.

-MEI

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:09:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:

Originally Posted By Tromatic:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
How do you think the Russians mass decontaminate tanks and AFVs?

Used jet engine, lots of water.

How did the oil field fires in Kuwait get put out?

Same way.



Got any links for that? All I ever saw/read about was "Hellfighters" style explsions to blow the fire out.



Naw, the Czech's or some Eastern Euro outfit built some big old jet rig and tried to put out the oil well fires... It was either useless or took forever.
The best way is still to blow 'em, rob to o2 from the flame, and then cap them.




Here's a pic of the T-72 with the Kilmov/Sarkisov RD-33 engines installed

www.xmsnet.nl/hdejong/jet-tank2.jpg


BTW it was the Poles not the Czechs.

ETA it was pretty effective, the vid I saw had them throttle up for around 30 sec and the fire went out.



That is a T-34 hull.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:26:40 AM EDT
allright so I got the damn tank wrong, but the engines are correct.
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