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Posted: 1/16/2006 12:21:00 PM EDT
Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.

Link to rest

www.sftt.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpDefense&htmlCategoryID=30&htmlId=4514


This is bullshit. If the soldier chooses to wear this as opposed to nothing, they should be allowed to.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:25:24 PM EDT
I have never heard of the stuff.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:26:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:28:43 PM EDT
Dragon skin sounds pretty cool. But at $6k/application? geesh
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:29:24 PM EDT

The only time service member’s relatives would not be paid the SGLI is if they were killed doing something illegal that would bring disgrace on the service. Such as killed while robbing a bank. They could be subject to UCMJ for wearing unauthorized clothing while on duty. But it’s probably a local commander over stepping his bounds.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:29:49 PM EDT
Well,unless things have changed since I was in, you wear the stuff the Gov't issues you.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:30:10 PM EDT
Is this +1 or +4 Dragon skin armor we are talking about?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:32:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Is this +1 or +4 Dragon skin armor we are talking about?





I wonder how many Dragon Slayers there are in Iraq?


BigDozer66
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:33:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:33:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 12:34:14 PM EDT by mcnielsen]
anybody have a link to the Dragon Skin armor?

ETA: not quick enough, I guess...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:35:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 12:37:38 PM EDT by FMJshooter]


Its up to there chain of command to decide if cutom equipment is acceptable or not . If they wore it after the gear got x'd they would be disobeying orders . I personaly never heard of someone losing there insurance for disobeying orders.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:39:51 PM EDT
I would treat that about the same way I would treat being told that my personal handgun was not allowed.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 12:41:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 12:42:21 PM EDT by tc556guy]

Originally Posted By coondog:
Well,unless things have changed since I was in, you wear the stuff the Gov't issues you.



If you've been following the various threads on any Iraq issue since the wars been going on, it seems that iraq is unique in the degree to which custom gear has been allowed for the individual Soldier. They've acknowledged that the normal channels haven't allowed them to field the gear the guys in the boots want quick enough. I suspect once the military speeds up the procurement process ( a change which is underway ), you wont see as much freedom of choice in gear selection allowed in the next conflict.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:07:02 PM EDT
Not giving any solider death benefits when he dies in combat will bring a real PR mess. Doing it because the armor he is using isan't issue, but is better or maybe wasn't even issued armor, will be a real shit storm.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:11:37 PM EDT
In Somalia I was threatened with NJP for wearing my soft body armor under my PASGT. Was told that my purchase and use of privately purchased gear would make the nonrates lose faith in their issue gear. This was after years of using the PASGT vest as a PT mat. Sun sweat and sand plays hell with body armor and our abused PASGT vests wouldnt stop handgun rounds.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:13:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mcnielsen:
anybody have a link to the Dragon Skin armor?

ETA: not quick enough, I guess...



So we can expect to see you decked out in Dragon Skin at the next shoot?



Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:27:31 PM EDT
Dragon skin sounds like some pretty good stuff, unless what the military is issuing, is better, I don't see why they wouldn't be allowed to use it. could be a jealous CO?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:31:06 PM EDT
weird.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:43:23 PM EDT
another link besides defense review? that guy on DR is so full of shit i want to choke him sometimes. im inclined to call BS on this whole story but i have seen how gay the army gets about some things. the Army SgtMaj in our camp was going ape-shit because our Marine detachment was patroling the wire in boonie covers and wearing watch caps around the camp. theyre authorized items in the Corps, I told him to call commandant and get a ruling...until then leave my boys alone. the same command at the same camp ordered that all private purchased optics be removed from issue rifles. rediculous. a lot of those soldiers had to bury their optics in their bags.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:53:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:56:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 1:56:21 PM EDT
If the article is true, seeing as this soldier is from Providence RI, it will only be a matter of days for the local liberal paper to pick up on this up and headline it.


Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:00:37 PM EDT
Check out the website. It belongs to David HACKworth, self-described on the site as "one of America's greatest heroes".

It's all about the bullshit from the left:

They don't really give a shit about the GIs, but they love to make a big deal about them not being trained, not being equipped, not having leadership, etc.

IOW, nothing is going right in Iraq and it's all Bush's fault.

This is from "about us":


Soldiers For The Truth (SFTT) is a grass-roots educational organization started by a small group of concerned veterans and citizens to inform the public, the Congress, and the media on the decline in readiness of our armed forces.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FunYun1983:
Not giving any solider death benefits when he dies in combat will bring a real PR mess. Doing it because the armor he is using isan't issue, but is better or maybe wasn't even issued armor, will be a real shit storm.



+1...
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:04:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
Check out the website. It belongs to David HACKworth, self-described on the site as "one of America's greatest heroes".

It's all about the bullshit from the left:

They don't really give a shit about the GIs, but they love to make a big deal about them not being trained, not being equipped, not having leadership, etc.

IOW, nothing is going right in Iraq and it's all Bush's fault.

This is from "about us":I


Soldiers For The Truth (SFTT) is a grass-roots educational organization started by a small group of concerned veterans and citizens to inform the public, the Congress, and the media on the decline in readiness of our armed forces.



I don't think that it still belongs to him since he passed on last year.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:08:51 PM EDT
If the armor has equal or greater protection and equal or less weight than issue stuff I don't see a problem.

Armor can be considered after all to be clothing. They didn't care if you wore the POS issue undershirts or private under armor type t-shirts last time I checked.

If it offers the same protection and doesn't hamper mobility WTF is their problem. Use the spare two sets of armor for someone who doesn't have it.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:11:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 2:14:03 PM EDT by Tromatic]

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Two deploying soldiers and a concerned mother reported Friday afternoon that the U.S. Army appears to be singling out soldiers who have purchased Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Body Armor for special treatment. The soldiers, who are currently staging for combat operations from a secret location, reported that their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies. The soldiers were ordered to leave their privately purchased body armor at home or face the possibility of both losing their life insurance benefit and facing disciplinary action.
Link to rest
www.sftt.org/main.cfm?actionId=globalShowStaticContent&screenKey=cmpDefense&htmlCategoryID=30&htmlId=4514
This is bullshit. If the soldier chooses to wear this as opposed to nothing, they should be allowed to.
TXL



I read a story about an M1 tank getting hit and the crew got injured. I demand Bush be impeached for sending unarmored tanks to war.

ETA: On of the more annoying aspects of military service is uniformity and standardization. This body-armor story is getting very old. SFTT is full of shit most of the time.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:22:47 PM EDT
Check out the "HOLY CRAP" video of someone firing a 308 15 feet away, 11 rounds, none penetrating!

www.pinnaclearmor.com/video/308.wmv
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:33:14 PM EDT
I've had my eye on Dragon Skin for the last 5-6 years. Its an old idea thats finally coming back around and seems to work.

It doesnt seem like Dragon Skin is being singled out though. Its always depended on how leinient commanders are as to wearing non-issue body armor
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 2:45:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
another link besides defense review? that guy on DR is so full of shit i want to choke him sometimes. im inclined to call BS on this whole story but i have seen how gay the army gets about some things. the Army SgtMaj in our camp was going ape-shit because our Marine detachment was patroling the wire in boonie covers and wearing watch caps around the camp. theyre authorized items in the Corps, I told him to call commandant and get a ruling...until then leave my boys alone. the same command at the same camp ordered that all private purchased optics be removed from issue rifles. rediculous. a lot of those soldiers had to bury their optics in their bags.


www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/sov.php

The Defense Review website has a link to the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 3:45:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
In Somalia I was threatened with NJP for wearing my soft body armor under my PASGT. Was told that my purchase and use of privately purchased gear would make the nonrates lose faith in their issue gear. This was after years of using the PASGT vest as a PT mat. Sun sweat and sand plays hell with body armor and our abused PASGT vests wouldnt stop handgun rounds.


IIRC, PASGT vests were anti-frag and never designed to stop handgun or rifle rounds.


Correct. However new ones will stop handgun rounds. When you start abusing them they wont anymore.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:26:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 4:27:58 PM EDT by tacman22]
I was told by an ex-mil guy that Dragon Skin is some of the best body armor that you can buy. I did some research on it and it looks pretty cool, too bad it's what, 6K? Thats pretty pricey, but you get what you pay for. They have options of full wrap around level 2 protection and extended level 3+ plates that cover 70% more of your body than the standard issue 10x12'' IIRC.
Question: Can individuals buy dragon skin, or is it mil/LE only?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:36:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
Dragon skin sounds pretty cool. But at $6k/application? geesh



I'd say it'd be worth it, if it's top of the line. Body armor seems like one of those things where getting the cheapest unit isn't always the best choice
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:44:13 PM EDT
1. It looks like it may not stop 7.62x54. This is a round we know the enemy has deployed in theater.
2. I can see why the Army is saying "no". The first time someone gets sniped with this armor on and dies, it's going to be the Army's fault for allowing it, and they'll get sued. Sad, but true.

Perhaps they already are and that's why the sudden push to enforce the equipment standard?

Say what you want, but if standards are enforced and everyone is provided an issue IBA, that problem goes away.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:50:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By coondog:
Well,unless things have changed since I was in, you wear the stuff the Gov't issues you.



+1
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:01:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:
I would treat that about the same way I would treat being told that my personal handgun was not allowed.



In that case, you could end up on the wrong end of a court martial.

The services frown on taking personally owned weapons into combat without 19 levels of permission.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:02:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
In Somalia I was threatened with NJP for wearing my soft body armor under my PASGT. Was told that my purchase and use of privately purchased gear would make the nonrates lose faith in their issue gear. This was after years of using the PASGT vest as a PT mat. Sun sweat and sand plays hell with body armor and our abused PASGT vests wouldnt stop handgun rounds.



Now THAT I can believe.

"You can't wear that! Everyone might think that the issue equipment isn't up to the job!"

"But it ISN'T up to the job!"

"THAT'S NOT THE POINT!!!"

Uncle Sugar at his finest....
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:09:01 PM EDT
Is a 7.62 NATO round more powerful than 7.62x54mm? Because from that site they say "2) Enhanced muli-hit capability. SOV/Dragon Skin discs protect against "multiple repeat hits at muzzle" from 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm, etc. We're talking muzzle-velocity hits, here, folks."
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:16:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By zaphar:
Is a 7.62 NATO round more powerful than 7.62x54mm? Because from that site they say "2) Enhanced muli-hit capability. SOV/Dragon Skin discs protect against "multiple repeat hits at muzzle" from 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm, etc. We're talking muzzle-velocity hits, here, folks."



No, it isn't.

The 7.62x54mm round is more powerful than the 7.62x51mm NATO round. Its power level is similar (if not higher) than the .30-06 used in the Garand in WWII.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:29:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:35:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 5:39:15 PM EDT
Pinnacle's Dragon Skin Armor really is the best body armor system out there. Nine US Gnereal officers in AFG are wearing it, in addition to the USSS Presidential Security Detail.


Unfortunately, the Army decided to classify its specific findings recorded in ballistics tests recently concluded by the US Army Research Laboratory (ARL) in Aberdeen, Maryland on Pinnacle's Level IV body armor system except to say it "surpassed all current industry standards" and "set standards" leading to a "classified protocol," according to the Army.


www.military.com/Content/Printer_Friendly_Version/1,11491,,00.html?passfile=&page_url=%2Fopinion%2F0%2C15202%2C78927%2C00%2Ehtml&passdirectory_file=%2Fnewsfiles%2F78927%2Ehtm

This body armor is capable of sustaining a lot of punnishment. I know of a former Ranger now working as a PSD in IRQ who wears this vest and he speaks very highly of it.

Having said that, I belive carbon fiber nano-tubes are the future of body armor and estimates are that body armor using this technology will be available in three years.

To anyone who seriously is interested in the Dragon Skin body armor, I suggest you read the following:

www.military.com/Content/Printer_Friendly_Version/1,11491,,00.html?passfile=&page_url=%2Fopinion%2F0%2C15202%2C78927%2C00%2Ehtml&passdirectory_file=%2Fnewsfiles%2F78927%2Ehtm

www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_PArmor,00.html

www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=756

www.defensereview.com/article827.html

www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june06/armor_1-11.html

Here are a few comments from the aforementioned Ranger:


Alright, I finally got over to the range today to test the new body armor.
It does wear close to the body, which enhances everything operationally from shooting to running, physical exercises, etc. It is heavy, close to the same weight as the old plate and soft armor insert from Paraclete or diamondback tactical.
I opted for full coverage and I got it. The disks manage to cover a majority of the torso leaving the shoulder caps and upper traps exposed as well as arm pits.
Anyone that works in an envrionment that requires body armor, this is the stuff to go with. Its hard to believe that somebody had already done this. I wont be going back to plate carriers if I can help it.
CONS
-expensive, really expensive....but if you take a diamond back plate hanger, plates, and soft armor instead you are saving about 2 k.
-it is heavy, somewhere around 18 pounds or so, but it wears much better than it carries in your arms. Again, for someone who hasnt worn body armor before this stuff is extremely heavy. If you are used to plates than its no big deal.
-takes time to break it in. Most plate systems break in quickly but this armor needs to be molded and formed. Definately follow the instructions given with it concerning forming the body armor.




The armor has a longer "break in period." The scale mail shows up very stiff and must be molded to the wearer and over time becomes quite flexible. You just have to wear it...it was a bit unnerving at first b/c I thought it would be pliable from the get go.
It is hot, but not anymore than wearing soft armor with overlapping plates and plate carrier.
The weight difference is negligible and this armor offers the most coverage on the market. Especially since, with plates, you can only cover your back, chest and shoulder caps. Not to mention if you wear a plate big enough to cover your chest entirely you wouldnt have a range of motion at all.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:11:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Is this +1 or +4 Dragon skin armor we are talking about?



and what color dragon was it made from
some will give reisistance to fire, others to cold, and others electricity
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:57:07 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:52:56 AM EDT
I am a bit concerned that all the articles seem to come from one guy...

On the other hand, from the cutaway photos it looks like a REALLLY good design!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:10:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sharky30:

Originally Posted By wedge1082:
Is this +1 or +4 Dragon skin armor we are talking about?



and what color dragon was it made from
some will give reisistance to fire, others to cold, and others electricity



Loks like it's Black or Green to me, so Acid or Gas resistant...

/PHil
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:47:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:53:12 AM EDT
tagged
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:17:06 AM EDT
Nobody is saying that is should be adopted immediately, just that it deserves a fair fight.
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