Quoted: Teaching school attract many idiots/bottom feeders… not because teaching does not pay well enough but because teaching schools are run by idiots for idiots. All collage students know that the modern collage education curriculum is a joke… teaching schools are held in contempt because they deserve to be. Teaching school curriculums are among the weakest/easiest in a collage/university this attacks the weakest students. Combine this with modern outcome based teaching theory that emphasis self-esteem and sameness of outcome instead of excellence and performance and the train wreck was inevitable.

This is true.  Regular ED teaching courses in college are a joke.  If you can't get through them then you are retarded or lack the motivation of earth worm.  Most empty head soriety types when asked what they were majoring in....  "education".  Pretty sad, but I think we get what we are willing to pay for to a large degree.  Nobody looking for money and a good career path is joining those programs.  There is a clear reason for that.

Quoted: But they are required to attend school til 3pm then get 2hrs of homework (5pm) ...there is hardly any time left to teach your child all these other things.... and sylvan...that place is big bucks.....few can afford it. Did you see the meeting for the kid that could barely read?  The principal sat there and said all was fine I experienced that with my oldest.  She would come home and struggle with math homework.  What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears.  Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.   I finally took her to SCORE for math.  That was a fourth the cost of Sylvan....and half the cost of Kumon.  But with all of her homework and one extra activity (swimming) we barely had time to attend SCORE.

This might not be your daughter's problem.  A vast majority of math teachers in the public schools don't understand math.  Most of them can't teach it beyond demonstrating mechanisms.  If your daughter is the type of person that needs to see the big picture and understand the why of things, she's going to struggle in math until she gets to college and gets her first good math professor.  

Unfortunately, with the way most universities are structured, that won't be until she's taken several higher level math classes, unless she is lucky and gets one of the very few TAs who actually care about teaching.  Few universities, fewer professors, and even fewer graduate students actually care about teaching since that doesn't make any money.

I suspect this might be the problem since you mentioned that her grades are fine.  It sounds like her expectations are a little higher than the teacher's expectations, and that she actually wants to understand why she is doing what she is doing.  It sounds familiar because I had the same problem when I was younger and I've seen and heard the same many times since from others.

Quoted: Quoted: Teaching school attract many idiots/bottom feeders… not because teaching does not pay well enough but because teaching schools are run by idiots for idiots. All collage students know that the modern collage education curriculum is a joke… teaching schools are held in contempt because they deserve to be. Teaching school curriculums are among the weakest/easiest in a collage/university this attacks the weakest students. Combine this with modern outcome based teaching theory that emphasis self-esteem and sameness of outcome instead of excellence and performance and the train wreck was inevitable. This is true.  Regular ED teaching courses in college are a joke.  If you can't get through them then you are retarded or lack the motivation of earth worm.  Most empty head soriety types when asked what they were majoring in....  "education".  Pretty sad, but I think we get what we are willing to pay for to a large degree.  Nobody looking for money and a good career path is joining those programs.  There is a clear reason for that.

This brings back a memory from my undergraduate days.  I was sitting at home working out what were at the time some pretty heavy differential equations.  I think it had something to do with the Navier-Stokes equations, to give you an idea, but anyway.  

A girlfriend of the time was sitting beside me, complaing about her homework, which consisted of cutting out shapes in construction paper and pasting them to a poster board.  She claimed it was too much to do and too hard.  Yes, she was an education major.

Quoted: This brings back a memory from my undergraduate days.  I was sitting at home working out what were at the time some pretty heavy differential equations.  I think it had something to do with the Navier-Stokes equations, to give you an idea, but anyway.   A girlfriend of the time was sitting beside me, complaing about her homework, which consisted of cutting out shapes in construction paper and pasting them to a poster board.  She claimed it was too much to do and too hard.  Yes, she was an education major.

I had virtually the same experience… the girl was making a pie chart cutting up construction paper and pasting them to a poster board and she could not do the math necessary to total up the percentages.

There was a company that I used to work for that employed "Loss Prevention" personnel.  Basically phone answering and just watching to see if employees didn't walk out with an Oscilloscope in thier pocket.  Well, one Loss Prevention employee was a 22-year old 5'3" blue-eyed blonde that could have revolutionized the porn industry she was so gorgeous.

She was also dumb as a post (yes, at that time I did hit it...).

Get this - she was a graduate of Texas A&M University with a degree in Sociology.  

She was complaining that she didn't make enough money at work and had her rich parents send her to a "Career Counseling" company to "test" her.  She took a series of tests, and guess what the recommended career path for this idiot was?

Yep.

A teacher.

This was a "professional" Career Counseling company that made this determination.  Just another part of the system of society that has hit rock bottom and continues to dig.  

CMOS

Ok, I'm a high school teacher and I teach 1st through 7th in the Summer.  I just came across this thread, so excuse me if I skip around a bit.

I didn't see the show.  I don't own a TV, otherwise it sounds like something I might enjoy.

Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution.  Separation of church and state.  When churches start paying taxes, like the rest of us, I have no problem with the government funding them.

Private schools:  Joseywhales said on page 1, "You get what you pay for"  I agree with the statement, but not in the way you do.  Teachers at private schools get paid about 2/3's of what public school teachers get paid.  When I first graduated, just like the rest of my graduating class, I was looking for a public school job.  If I didn't get one, I would start looking at the private schools.  Private schools get the leftovers of what the public schools didn't want.

Max_Mike said that teaching schools are easy.  That was not my experience.  But, teaching is my second career and I went back to get my masters and start teaching, so I can't talk about undergrad education studies.  My classes were hard.  My thesis was hard.  My teachers were very exacting and some of them got their degrees from ivy league schools.  More than half of the class I started school with did not graduate.  It was tough.

MM also stated that there is a massive overspending on teachers where the are no results.  Our society's businesses are built on the laws of supply and demand.  I'm a good teacher.  I am well-educated.  I don't want to work in Newark, where I will be disciplining kids more than teaching them.  I also don't want to be stabbed or to see the kids that I've gotten close to, stabbed.  You could pay me $200,000 a year, I still wouldn't work there.  I didn't get into teaching for the money.  Maybe the teachers who work there did.

Someone mentioned that our class sizes are too small?  I forget who said it, but he said that his friend teaches 20 students in 4th and has two teaching assistants.  Schools don't give the teacher teaching assistants.  They give students that have special needs, teaching assistants.  I have one class where there is a teaching assistant.  The student that he helps has downs syndrome.  He doesn't speak to any other student in the class, unless they are speaking to his student.  Life in public school would be impossible for her witout him taking her to each of her classes.  I have another class which has 10 classified students in it (along with the other 17 "normal" kids), under the law, their should be two aides in the classroom.  I have none.  I deal.  For the teacher that does get the aides... don't blaim him/her.  It is the law for a reason.  YOU try and handle 10 special ed kids at once. let alone the other 17 kids the class.  He talked about having 50 kids in a class and that was fine for him....  That is only legal to have that class size in gym classes and in Florida public education (though that might've been repealed by now).  By the way, Florida has one of the worse public education report cards in the whole country.  It doesn't work.  It would be constant classroom management rather than teaching.

There were some things that I agree with whole-heartedly in this thread.  
1.  The liberal brainwashing NEA.  This year I've been mostly avoiding anything NEA, but I went to my first NEA meeting the other day...  Teachers are greedy, bitter, gossipy, strike-obsessed idiots,  or at least the ones who talk-out in those meetings are.  It was mind blowing how some of the faculty see the world so differently than reality dictates.  I am actually SCARED shitless that I will eventually be molded into the mindhive and think the way they do.  Plus ANY kind of dissent from the complaining and people look at you like you are a spy working for the enemy.  (I was saved from this fate by my mentor, who shut me up in the meeting and took me for a drink so that we could vent to each other in private without reprisal).

2.  Several people mentioned about teacher whining and the job security issue.  Maybe it's just that so many teachers in my school are near retirement, but I see that.  Teachers that know they can't be fired start slacking off.  Sometimes they are put in hall monitor positions that should get paid $12 an hour, but they are getting full teaching salaries.  The guy that I took over for...  I keep hearing stories about him.  He retired after a bizillion years.  My supervisor said everytime he walked into the classroom at least a couple of the students would be asleep, and only about 3% would be working of projects relating to the class.  I agree that the tenure system is WRONG.  It doesn't work for the students.  But I don't know what the solution is.  You take that away and half of the teachers will leave too.

My $.02

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Teaching school attract many idiots/bottom feeders… not because teaching does not pay well enough but because teaching schools are run by idiots for idiots. All collage students know that the modern collage education curriculum is a joke… teaching schools are held in contempt because they deserve to be. Teaching school curriculums are among the weakest/easiest in a collage/university this attacks the weakest students. Combine this with modern outcome based teaching theory that emphasis self-esteem and sameness of outcome instead of excellence and performance and the train wreck was inevitable. This is true.  Regular ED teaching courses in college are a joke.  If you can't get through them then you are retarded or lack the motivation of earth worm.  Most empty head soriety types when asked what they were majoring in....  "education".  Pretty sad, but I think we get what we are willing to pay for to a large degree.  Nobody looking for money and a good career path is joining those programs.  There is a clear reason for that. This brings back a memory from my undergraduate days.  I was sitting at home working out what were at the time some pretty heavy differential equations.  I think it had something to do with the Navier-Stokes equations, to give you an idea, but anyway.   A girlfriend of the time was sitting beside me, complaing about her homework, which consisted of cutting out shapes in construction paper and pasting them to a poster board.  She claimed it was too much to do and too hard.  Yes, she was an education major.

+1 Same experience here.

I was finishing up about 3 hours worth of multivariable calc hw and the girl across from me (design major) was cutting up pieces of construction paper to glue onto a shitty little clock that they had to assemble. And yes, I ended up helping her reassemble that clock because she put it together all wrong...

A coworker of mine is married to an grade school teacher at a public school here in southeast Texas.  The area she teaches in has a mix of wealthy, middle and low income families.  Here are two good stories that show why the issue here is the parents more than the schools.

First story is of a 3rd grader who is one of 13 kids.  She has no attention span, is easily distracted and is poorly behaved.  She will probably be held back like the other 6 siblings she has.  Neither parent is employed and they live in a trailer park.  They spend no time with the kids and with 13, it is hard to really take an interest.  The kid is basically going to be a 13 or 14 year-old 6th grader and will probably drop out like some of here siblings.

The second story is of another 3rd grader.  This kid is abnormally tall and fat for his age.  He does not know how to properly wipe himself after using the toilet, so he usually smells like he shit his pants.  He punches other kids, spits on other kids, throws things at the teacher, yells at the teacher.  Usually on a daily basis.  When the teacher had a conference with the parent and told her about the discipline problems, the parent replied "You do not know how to teach a black kid, that is why this is happening."  She refused to let her kid be moved to a "special" class so the kid was eventually moved to a class that is not called a "special" class but it is full of other students like this.

Bottom line, for every kid who is a problem, there is a parent behind them who does not care.

There is a class of americans who are stupid, fat and lazy.  They do not care and all they want to do is wallow in their own shit and vomit.  Unfortunately, they reproduce and the kids become everyone else's problem.  This is evident in the public school system since the public schools have no say in who they teach.

Quoted: Quoted: What made me and my wife most furious was the segment on the "Rubber Rooms" where bad teachers are sent to read magazines and smoke and chat all day on payroll but away from students. $20 million a year!! on teachers who are paid to sit around because we can't fire them but they can't be near students! Another example of unions ruining America.

+1000

No competition, no incentive to perform, nasty, expensive outcomes. It's not brain surgery.

Stossel always does good work and everyone should read his new book.

Great show.

It sounds sinilar to our educaion system, by worse.
Alot of it comes down to parental responsibility. Mummy and daddy both go off to work and contract out their child-rearing to strangers from about 6 months of age. They drop the kids off at day care from 7:30am and pick them up again at 6pm. This goes on until they are 5 or 6.

Then they go to school. They go to before and after school care, from 7:30-9am, and then from 3:30-6pm, go home, do homework, watch tv/play x-box/computer etc. then go to bed. If their parents are focused on the child's success, then they throw them into extra-curricular activities. Soccer, Rugby, AFL (winter), Cricket, Swimming (summer), tutoring, debating, scouts, etc. Except for the after-school care, this continutes into high school, with the homework load growing exponentially.

Then they go to univeristy.

In 18 years, they have seen their parents  for perhaps 3-4 hours a day. Most 15 year-olds can't even say what their parents do for a living! I am a scout leader, and when I ask they boys what their parents do for a living, they cannot answer. They don't know what industry, what company or what job. They know more about me than they do their own parents!

The problems with education start at birth. When parents demand their "right" to a fulfilling career over raising children, you can pretty much write off the child. My wife used to work in child-care. The worst story she told was about a woman who was pregant, booked herself in for a cesarian on the Friday, was in hospital over the weekend, and back at work on Monday. A report has come out saying that there are 175,000 children on the childcare waiting list, and the gov. is spending $9 BILLION to adress the shortfall, with critics demanding more. To put it into perspective, the defence budget is $13B. Why? We have a labour shortage, and the government wants all of those parents in the workforce, thereby sacrificing the future for today's labour force figures.

I could go on and on, but suffice it to say, parents are largely to blame. They wouldn't know what sort of education their child is getting, so they knee-jerk when their child complains.

Disclaimer: The above does not include the minority of good parents. Form what I can see, a very large proportion these days are not so good.

Quoted: Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution.  Separation of church and state.  When churches start paying taxes, like the rest of us, I have no problem with the government funding them.

Churches should pay taxes. Same with so-called non profit organizations. What bullshit.
However, it is patently unfair for people to pay for the public education of others and then pay tuition for private school for their own children. This is almost always the result of a failed public school system in the first place.
I support vouchers. Where people spend them is their business, not the govt's. Either that or get the gov't out of the education business all together. Sad it has come to that but as the current system goes we would be better off.

There were some things that I agree with whole-heartedly in this thread.   1.  The liberal brainwashing NEA.  This year I've been mostly avoiding anything NEA, but I went to my first NEA meeting the other day...  Teachers are greedy, bitter, gossipy, strike-obsessed idiots,  or at least the ones who talk-out in those meetings are.  It was mind blowing how some of the faculty see the world so differently than reality dictates.  I am actually SCARED shitless that I will eventually be molded into the mindhive and think the way they do.  Plus ANY kind of dissent from the complaining and people look at you like you are a spy working for the enemy.  (I was saved from this fate by my mentor, who shut me up in the meeting and took me for a drink so that we could vent to each other in private without reprisal). 2.  Several people mentioned about teacher whining and the job security issue.  Maybe it's just that so many teachers in my school are near retirement, but I see that.  Teachers that know they can't be fired start slacking off.    I agree that the tenure system is WRONG.

Yup.

Quoted: 2.  Several people mentioned about teacher whining and the job security issue.  Maybe it's just that so many teachers in my school are near retirement, but I see that.  Teachers that know they can't be fired start slacking off.  Sometimes they are put in hall monitor positions that should get paid $12 an hour, but they are getting full teaching salaries.  The guy that I took over for...  I keep hearing stories about him.  He retired after a bizillion years.  My supervisor said everytime he walked into the classroom at least a couple of the students would be asleep, and only about 3% would be working of projects relating to the class.  I agree that the tenure system is WRONG.  It doesn't work for the students.  But I don't know what the solution is.  You take that away and half of the teachers will leave too. My $.02

At least in our area, the tenure system is strong, but you can get rid of one if the school has the will.  At my wifes old school the principle had no intrest in this.  They never observed classes and performance was almost never evaled.  Lots of tenured, near retirement, leeches were happy to stay.  My wife left that school because of the piss-poor administration.  New school, same district.  A tenured teacher that was surfing the web and making phone calls in class got caught.  She was placed on "job targets" (think come to Jesus meeting) and evaled by an administrator several times a week.  If she had continued to go down the path she was on it would not be a hall monitor position she took, it would be her ass out the door.  The admins at this school can, have, and will do the paperwork needed to get a tenured but now crappy teacher out the door.  

Maybe tenure should not be so strong, but teachers and staff do work for a political entity and even with tenure they have been known to make some very political choices on who to start trying to get pushed out the door.  Balance, that's the key.

Quoted: Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution.

Horseshit.

The US Constitution says NOTHING about schools or education because education was intended to be a LOCAL matter.

The power and authority for educating children was NEVER delegated to the Federal Gov't in the Constitution - so therefore under the 10 Amendment it is reserved for the states and the people.

Quoted: Separation of church and state.

No such thing - except in one brief, extraconstitutional passing comment of Jefferson in a private correspondence letter.

Should we start basing ALL Constitutional interpretations on one-line comments written in the private letters of the FFs?

Quoted: Quoted: Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution. Horseshit. The US Constitution says NOTHING about schools or education because education was intended to be a LOCAL matter. The power and authority for educating children was NEVER delegated to the Federal Gov't in the Constitution - so therefore under the 10 Amendment it is reserved for the states and the people. Quoted: Separation of church and state. No such thing - except in one brief, extraconstitutional passing comment of Jefferson in a private correspondence letter. Should we start basing ALL Constitutional interpretations on one-line comments written in the private letters of the FFs?

"congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

it's called the first amendment of the constitution of the united states, not a "Passing comment" in a private letter.

Hell, just google "separation of church and state Constitution"

Quoted: Maybe tenure should not be so strong, but teachers and staff do work for a political entity and even with tenure they have been known to make some very political choices on who to start trying to get pushed out the door.  Balance, that's the key.

Personally, I believe that the concept of tenure in public schools is completely ridiculous, and I have never understood the logic behind it.   It is a concept that makes sense in research universities, but I don't understand what purpose it serves in high school of middle school teaching.  

It comes down to the perceived role of schools.  I don't recall ever reading anywhere that people in this country have a right to education.  I'm a graduate of public schools so I might have missed that one, but I've never seen it.

Teaching is a crappy job.  I will never teach below university level.  It's pure hell and I'd probably be in prison within 6 months of starting the job.  It seems to be a common idea that no one can be failed out for being lazy or kicked out for disruptive behavior.  So the stupid and the dirtbags move along through the system with everone else.

University education programs are a joke, though.  It attracts a mixture of the dullest of the dull and the idealistic who have no concept of reality.  Teacher pay is low, except in union states where it is artifically inflated, because anyone can get a job teaching.  The problem is that not everyone can actually teach.

Put these two together.  Add in a sense of entitlement on the teachers' part.  

"Oh we teach, so we should make as much as professional baseball players."

"Yeah, well you're doing a crappy job of it.  If you worked in the corporate world, you would have been fired years ago for incompetence."

First, the stupid and lazy students need to be kicked out if they screw up too much.

Second, the stupid and lazy teachers need to be kicked out if they screw up.

Third, pay needs to increase for the teachers who can actually teach and the standards  for hiring need to be bumped up, which would put most university level education programs out of business.

I'm not very compassionate when it comes to the futue of children as a collective whole, and it's not a very Christian trait in me.  But why waste billions on the marginal cases to make them barely functional when you can let Darwin take care of them and redirect those billions to make the merely functional into the next generation of Newtons, Einsteins, and von Neumanns?

It sounds horrible, but there you are.  Such is life.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution. Horseshit. The US Constitution says NOTHING about schools or education because education was intended to be a LOCAL matter. The power and authority for educating children was NEVER delegated to the Federal Gov't in the Constitution - so therefore under the 10 Amendment it is reserved for the states and the people. Quoted: Separation of church and state. No such thing - except in one brief, extraconstitutional passing comment of Jefferson in a private correspondence letter. Should we start basing ALL Constitutional interpretations on one-line comments written in the private letters of the FFs? "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." it's called the first amendment of the constitution of the united states, not a "Passing comment" in a private letter. Hell, just google "separation of church and state Constitution"

Please highlight the where the words "Separation of Church and State" appear in the phrase "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Do you know what the word "establishment" means?

Do you know what the word "establishment" meant during the time the 1st Amendment was written?

Do yourself a favor, Google what's written on Thomas Jefferson's tombstone - the words that he HIMSELF chose to put there. Then find out what that document (the one referring to "religious freedom") he named on his tombstone says.

Read it. THAT was what Jefferson had in mind for "religious freedom".

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Vouchers are ridiculous and a tearing down of the constitution. Horseshit. The US Constitution says NOTHING about schools or education because education was intended to be a LOCAL matter. The power and authority for educating children was NEVER delegated to the Federal Gov't in the Constitution - so therefore under the 10 Amendment it is reserved for the states and the people. Quoted: Separation of church and state. No such thing - except in one brief, extraconstitutional passing comment of Jefferson in a private correspondence letter. Should we start basing ALL Constitutional interpretations on one-line comments written in the private letters of the FFs? "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." it's called the first amendment of the constitution of the united states, not a "Passing comment" in a private letter. Hell, just google "separation of church and state Constitution" Please highlight the where the words "Separation of Church and State" appear in the phrase "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." Do you know what the word "establishment" means? Do you know what the word "establishment" meant during the time the 1st Amendment was written? Do yourself a favor, Google what's written on Thomas Jefferson's tombstone - the words that he HIMSELF chose to put there. Then find out what that document (the one referring to "religious freedom") he named on his tombstone says. Read it. THAT was what Jefferson had in mind for "religious freedom".

ok, I went on your wild google chase and read it.  Here's a quote from the "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom"  that you sent me to:

?...We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities..."

Hate to burst your bubble, but this is ALSO separation of church and state.

Have YOU read the document?
He wanted to be sure that the government could not stop people from practicing their religion.  He also wanted to be sure that church officials didn't give their patron instructions on how to think about civil matters.

So since everyone, except you (and, I'm sure, a handful of others), accept the first amendment as having the separation of church and state clause in it...
What do YOU think the first amendment is saying about religion?

oh yeah, and next time, give me a phrase to google or a link.  It's rude to send me to one place just to find out what the name of the "document" is that you would like me to read.
Unless your tactics are to assume that I won't jump through hoops to proove you wrong.  It's weak.

Quoted: ok, I went on your wild google chase and read it.  Here's a quote from the "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom"  that you sent me to: ?...We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities..." Hate to burst your bubble, but this is ALSO separation of church and state. Have YOU read the document? He wanted to be sure that the government could not stop people from practicing their religion.  He also wanted to be sure that church officials didn't give their patron instructions on how to think about civil matters. So since everyone, except you (and, I'm sure, a handful of others), accept the first amendment as having the separation of church and state clause in it... What do YOU think the first amendment is saying about religion? oh yeah, and next time, give me a phrase to google or a link.  It's rude to send me to one place just to find out what the name of the "document" is that you would like me to read. Unless your tactics are to assume that I won't jump through hoops to proove you wrong.  It's weak.

You missed some very important parts of a LAW Jefferson wrote to protect "Religious Freedom":

A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom "SECTION I. Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to exalt it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern..."

Yep - Thomas Jefferson wrote INTO LAW to protect "Freedom Of Religion" words that would make any ACLU/Atheist today gag on their lawsuits if anyone codified into law such words today:

"...Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will... the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind..."

That's what Thomas Jefferson wrote in a law SPECIFICALLY prohibiting establishment of religion! And yet there he is, Mr. "Wall Of Separation" himself declaring IN LAW, with the full force and approval of the Government that "God" who created our liberty is "the holy author of our religion".

He also deplored the use of public funds (tax money) "for the propagation of opinions which [someone] disbelieves and abhors," - opinions which must include evolution which many Christian fundamentalist taxpayers abhor as well as other highly controversial opinions dispensed in public schools like "gay-acceptance", "artificial birth-control", "secular humanism" and many others.

If, as Jefferson clearly puts forth, no one should be forced to pay taxes to support such ideas that they "disbelieve and abhor" - then the entire idea of compulsory taxation for public school curricula as it exists today should be abolished.

The point is that compulsory public schools run by the state and funded by compulsory taxation is NOT consistent with the Jefferson's Bill Of Religious Freedom which was template for the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment.

School vouchers, whereby taxpayers would take THEIR tax money and use it to pay for education of THEIR own choosing is the epitome of "freedom" and is entirely consistent with Jefferson's idea for religious freedom as put forth in his Bill For Establishing Religious Freedom as well as the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

Quoted: Quoted: ok, I went on your wild google chase and read it.  Here's a quote from the "Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom"  that you sent me to: ?...We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities..." Hate to burst your bubble, but this is ALSO separation of church and state. Have YOU read the document? He wanted to be sure that the government could not stop people from practicing their religion.  He also wanted to be sure that church officials didn't give their patron instructions on how to think about civil matters. So since everyone, except you (and, I'm sure, a handful of others), accept the first amendment as having the separation of church and state clause in it... What do YOU think the first amendment is saying about religion? oh yeah, and next time, give me a phrase to google or a link.  It's rude to send me to one place just to find out what the name of the "document" is that you would like me to read. Unless your tactics are to assume that I won't jump through hoops to proove you wrong.  It's weak. You missed some very important parts of a LAW Jefferson wrote to protect "Religious Freedom": A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom "SECTION I. Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to exalt it by its influence on reason alone; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time: That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; that even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern..." Yep - Thomas Jefferson wrote INTO LAW to protect "Freedom Of Religion" words that would make any ACLU/Atheist today gag on their lawsuits if anyone codified into law such words today: "...Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will... the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind..." That's what Thomas Jefferson wrote in a law SPECIFICALLY prohibiting establishment of religion! And yet there he is, Mr. "Wall Of Separation" himself declaring IN LAW, with the full force and approval of the Government that "God" who created our liberty is "the holy author of our religion". He also deplored the use of public funds (tax money) "for the propagation of opinions which [someone] disbelieves and abhors," - opinions which must include evolution which many Christian fundamentalist taxpayers abhor as well as other highly controversial opinions dispensed in public schools like "gay-acceptance", "artificial birth-control", "secular humanism" and many others. If, as Jefferson clearly puts forth, no one should be forced to pay taxes to support such ideas that they "disbelieve and abhor" - then the entire idea of compulsory taxation for public school curricula as it exists today should be abolished. The point is that compulsory public schools run by the state and funded by compulsory taxation is NOT consistent with the Jefferson's Bill Of Religious Freedom which was template for the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. School vouchers, whereby taxpayers would take THEIR tax money and use it to pay for education of THEIR own choosing is the epitome of "freedom" and is entirely consistent with Jefferson's idea for religious freedom as put forth in his Bill For Establishing Religious Freedom as well as the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

You read a lot of things into that document that aren't there IMHO

how did this get hijacked into church and state?

Quoted: You read a lot of things into that document that aren't there IMHO

Oh but the words "separation of Church and state" are CLEARLY written in the 1st Amendment. Right.

I post a Law written by Jefferson in which he uses the power of the state to unequivocally declare the existance of "God" and that God is "the holy author of our religion" and state that God is "lord of both mind and body".

So should we teach THAT in public schools today?

And getting back to the "Separation of Church and state" phrase that you cling to so tightly - do you REALLY want to start using extra-constitutional, private correspondence letters as a foundation of constitutional law????

If so, there's a LOT of private (and public) writings by the FFs that clearly indicate they believed the Gov't SHOULD acknowledge and pay reverence to God.

It's very hypocritical to say that just because Jefferson wrote a letter to some Baptist ministers vaguely refering to some sort of "separation between church and state" that that concept should override the words of the Constitution and yet REFUSE to rely on any of THESE statements by our FFs as equally-weighted supports FOR having Gov't acknowledge God:

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them..." "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..." "And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor." ~ Declaration of Independence. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...whereas it becomes all public Bodies, as well as private Persons, to reverence the Providence of GOD, and look up to him as the supreme Disposer of all Events, and the Arbiter of the Fate of Nations: Therefore the CONGRESS hereby RESOLVE, That it be recommended to all the States, as soon as possible to appoint a Day of solemn Fasting and Humiliation, to implore of Almighty GOD the Forgiveness of the many Sins prevailing among all Ranks, and to beg the Countenance and Assistance of his Providence in the Prosecution of this just and necessary War." ~ US Congress: Day Of Fasting Proclamation, December 11, 1776. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government  instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to  execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own..." "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency;" "...the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained;" ~ George Washington's First Inaugural Address, 1789. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "In these my confidence will under every difficulty be best placed, next to that which we have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being whose power regulates the destiny of nations, whose blessings have been so conspicuously dispensed to this rising Republic, and to whom we are bound to address our devout gratitude for the past, as well as our fervent supplications and best hopes for the future." ~ James Madison's First Inaugural Address, 1809.

So why don't you rely on THESE extra-constitutional writings to determine the proper relationship between Gov't and religious expression rather than solely on one single phrase from one single private letter from Jefferson???

Quoted: how did this get hijacked into church and state?

Apathy for the origional topic.

Quoted: Quoted: how did this get hijacked into church and state? Apathy for the origional topic.

ok ok, I don't think I've ever unintentionally hijacked a thread before.  It got hijacked because we are both passionate about our beliefs, we both didn't have much to do tonight and Macallan has the hots for me and needed to bait me. I'll stop. It's late anyway, passed my bedtime,

Quoted: Quoted: Maybe tenure should not be so strong, but teachers and staff do work for a political entity and even with tenure they have been known to make some very political choices on who to start trying to get pushed out the door.  Balance, that's the key. Personally, I believe that the concept of tenure in public schools is completely ridiculous, and I have never understood the logic behind it.   It is a concept that makes sense in research universities, but I don't understand what purpose it serves in high school of middle school teaching.

More because of the political nature of the board overseeing the jobs of the teachers.  We have one friend who is a real hard-ass on kids and grades and behaviour.  Probably above 95% of other teachers.  Still not much more than my 8th grade math teacher was.  He was not to be played with and we respected that, and knew where it was heading if we danced with him.  This guy is much the same.  He said what the rules were, and he followed through to the letter.  He fought as hard as it took to break the will of the kid fighting him.

You would not believe the amount of grief parents rain down on the local administrators and the board over his actions.  In todays world of psych labels half the kids "can't be expected to follow simple rules".  Someone warned him that his job might be on the line as the admins were getting tired of fighting parents over his policies and they were discussing ways to move him along.  He changed his ways unfortunately to keep his head down, but it was largely the fact that it was going to be a real pain to force him out that he feels kept him there.  Not that that's a great success story, the system really did wear him down.  I doubt he continues too much longer in that job.  

This is in another district so I don't know for certain the truth of his story.  I do know that the politico's at central office and the board will happily plant a dagger in your back if the media or public start putting pressure on them and they can toss you to the wolves.  

I'm saying there are reasons why teachers get unfairly targeted and tenure does make it hard to dismiss them on a whim.  Is it doing far more harm than good?  Maybe it is.  I certainly think it bears looking at given some the outrageous bullshit that report highlights.

Quoted: everyone has valid points, so far--there is never one thing to blame or one solution to the problem it all comes down to personal responsibility--which many are so low on it is the responsibility of the parent to model for their child, to take an active role in their life and education, to teach children values and priorities and live by the same if the parents dont like what the kid is getting from school, take some action--when ABC paid for the teenage boy to go to Sylvan, he increased his reading levels--if his parent had taken action on her own, instead of just crying about it and blaming the school, there wouldve been results my sister is a teacher in a so called inner-city school and i work with kids and schools in a more rural (not suburban) district--the same thing lacks at both--PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT--in both cases, the parents dont pay attention or get involved until interim reports or report cards with failing grades start coming home--then they are calling school and blaming my sister or crying to me that the school doesnt care about their child--WTF!?!!??!

Yeah I know D_C.  I've grown up to realize that grades are the person's fault.  And the whole "the teacher GAVE you a grade" is a crock of BS.  

I've mostly had good teachers in my life.  The only ones that stood out as "bad" teachers was a gym teacher that knew that I was weaker athleticaly than my peers so he decided to ignore me and allow me to be alienated from my fellow peers for 6 years-until a new gym teacher was hired when I was in the seventh grade.  

Another teacher was one that really seemed to have a grudge against me for some reason.  A few years ago the Chicago school system passed a requirement that all students were required to wear uniforms.  Long story short, I had a bad cold one day and this teacher made me take off this sweatshirt that was the color of the required uniforms and no other teachers-including this one-had seen my shirt as a problem before.  

But I've mostly had good teachers-both in the inner city school system(Chicago as I mentioned before) and the suburbs.  

Quoted: I experienced that with my oldest.  She would come home and struggle with math homework.  What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears.  Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.

Been there did that when I started getting into long division, and algebra.  My mom doesn't know a bit of that, the teacher didn't understand why I couldn't get help with my math homework.

What really pissed me off was last fall I took my first math class in college.  The teacher of this beginning algebra class(I am really weak at math) did NOT give out any homework, and did not really do anything to reinforce the math to make sure that we understood it.  To add to that, he did not even care if we attended class or not.

Needless to say I dropped my math class, and I hope that all will be well when I start again on Tuesday.
Same calass different prof.  

Quoted: Quoted: I experienced that with my oldest.  She would come home and struggle with math homework.  What should have been 30m max would turn into hours of work accompanied by tears.  Every teacher I talked to said they never noticed any problem and she did great in class.   Been there did that when I started getting into long division, and algebra.  My mom doesn't know a bit of that, the teacher didn't understand why I couldn't get help with my math homework. What really pissed me off was last fall I took my first math class in college.  The teacher of this beginning algebra class(I am really weak at math) did NOT give out any homework, and did not really do anything to reinforce the math to make sure that we understood it.  To add to that, he did not even care if we attended class or not. Needless to say I dropped my math class, and I hope that all will be well when I start again on Tuesday. Same calass different prof.

Read the book, do the sample problems and do the problems at the end of the section/chapter.  You're a big boy now.

I wasn't weak in math but after 4 years in the Marines and 1 working factories until college started I lost most all of it. I kicked butt and hardly ever went ot class until I took Calc. Prof required 100% attendance in that and I still taught it to myself from the book.  FWIW, I hardly took a math test in Alg, Alg II, or Calc that I didn't have the highest grade in the class. IOW, you can teach yourself. Just takes a little effort, some time and some patience.

Quoted: Read the book, do the sample problems and do the problems at the end of the section/chapter.  You're a big boy now. ]

I did that and I still flunked every test...I went to tutoring.

The teachers are there and paid to make sure the students understand the concepts.  

End of discussion.  

Quoted:IOW, you can teach yourself. Just takes a little effort, some time and some patience.

No offense dude but I know what my strengths and weaknesses are.  FWIW I taught myself to read.  Math is a different animal.

Quoted: The teachers are there and paid to make sure the students understand the concepts.

What are the students there to do?

Quoted: Quoted: The teachers are there and paid to make sure the students understand the concepts.   What are the students there to do?

learn.
They have to do their part too.

It's a 2 way street.

Quoted: Quoted:IOW, you can teach yourself. Just takes a little effort, some time and some patience. No offense dude but I know what my strengths and weaknesses are.  FWIW I taught myself to read.  Math is a different animal.

If you can read you can teach yourself anything.

I understand the strength and weakness thing though. But in college it is really sink or swim. That's how it was at my school anyhow. I wish you the best, just trying to encourage you the only way I know how. Myabe I should forget about the teaching gig.

If you have the book, get going on it and try to get ahead a little before class starts up.
In tough classes I always found it useful to prepare the night before a little bit. Even if you don't understand it, it helps to fill in the gaps when the prof starts running all over the board.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:IOW, you can teach yourself. Just takes a little effort, some time and some patience. No offense dude but I know what my strengths and weaknesses are.  FWIW I taught myself to read.  Math is a different animal. If you can read you can teach yourself anything. I understand the strength and weakness thing though. But in college it is really sink or swim. That's how it was at my school anyhow. I wish you the best, just trying to encourage you the only way I know how. Myabe I should forget about the teaching gig. If you have the book, get going on it and try to get ahead a little before class starts up. In tough classes I always found it useful to prepare the night before a little bit. Even if you don't understand it, it helps to fill in the gaps when the prof starts running all over the board.

I get what you're saying. I'll be going again to math tutoring starting the first day of class.  

Quoted: Quoted: What is clear is that the primary focus of government schools and employees is - JOB SECURITY - not teaching. Quoted: I agree, and add '$$$$$' to that too. Give me a fucking break. While you are 100% correct about administration, how many teachers do you know that went into teaching for the job security or money? College students who are going into teaching programs know full well that teaching isn't where the money is.  They are going into teaching because they want to TEACH. It is the administration, school boards, and government policies that get in the way of that.

On that point I disagree.  My Moron SIL Graduated from Iowa State with a c-
Of course she wasn't accepted for a student teching much yet a job in Iowa.

So morons parents sent her and her loser friends to Houston to student teach.
She's making $45,000 a year for working 9 months and believe me this girl is not competent to work at Starbucks

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The teachers are there and paid to make sure the students understand the concepts.   What are the students there to do? learn. They have to do their part too. It's a 2 way street.

Just checking.

I hope your new teacher is better.

A math instructor who doesn't require attendance nor assign homework is only doing half their job.

Quoted: I went to private catholic schools all the way upto college.  I always though it humorous that I knew more history, theology, religion, and political science than 90% of my classmates.  I would never abuse my kids by sending them to public schools.  I am the youngest of many children, before school vouchers and child credits were instated.  I never wore my own clothes until I was in high school.  But now I can affort 8 AR 15's, 6 other high quality military firearms, 50BMG, HK, and several hunting trips a year.  I have an advanced degree and will own my house in 10 years.  I am under age 35.   If you think the financial burden of private schools is too high......remember.....you get what you pay for. PS....  People who send kids to private school also pay for the public school wasteril's tuition.

Me as well Josey

Quoted: A math instructor who doesn't require attendance nor assign homework is only doing half their job.

Mac, believe me I agree with you 100%.

That prof was a total shitstain.  I had a history prof this semester that said he didn't care if you dropped the class.

OTOH I had a biology prof this semester that was supportive, understood my problems, and tried to help in every way she could.  

Edit-FWIW this is at a community college.

The_Macallan is exactlt right about the environment and attitude of the PARENTS.  I know parents who's kids were reading on a 3rd grade lever when they started Kindergarten.  How'd they fo this?  Easy. --- They read to them every single day.  Their kids were so pumped with excitement that they might be able to "read like mommy does" that they just picked it up with time.  Today this family's kids are 11 and 14 years old - both in advanced classes in (pretty decent and white) public schools. There certainly are many factors that influence a child's education.  To ignore ANY of those factors could "cost" a child a lifetime of missed opportunities. CMOS

I really believe it all starts at home. It's just amazing how much children want to learn given the opportunity. My daughter is 16 months old now. We've been teaching her sign language since she was 5 months old. She now knows and uses 15-20 different signs(no she's not deaf), as well as learning and saying all the words that go along with the signs and many other words. My wife and I have been reading books to her at bedtime since she was 6-8 months old. She now brings books to us, at all times of the day, to read to her. She probably has 3 dozen books now, including the entire Dr. Suess collection. We've also bought her all the educational toys one can think of, but they would be of no use without parental involvement. Truthfully it's also alot of fun, watching her learn. Anybody who has kids knows what I'm talking about. When you teach them a new word or teach them what the red block is and ask her to go get the red block and she picks it out of many other shapes and colors. There is no better feeling. Anyone who has ever trained an animal, multiply that feeling of accomplishment by 100.

Given the fact, of how many terrible, self-centered parents we have out there. It is no wonder that the schools are in the shape they are in. I for one will not rely on the schools to be the only education for my children. They'll learn as much, if not more from us(parents). It's the same way I look at Social Security. I'm not in any way planning on it for my retirement. I'm saving on my own and if it happens to work out that is is there. Well great. If not oh well.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shameful, but I also fault the parents. Eric   Yep. I'm not one to give crappy schools a pass and I think there's a hell of a lot to crap shoveled out to kids in many schools (both public and private). But by far the MOST important factor in a child's education is the parents' attitudes towards education. And that starts from when the child is an infant. Parents who consistently demonstrate BY EXAMPLE that high standards in reading, writing and math are CENTRAL to their lives and their children's lives will do a lot to overcome deficits in teachers' ability or curriculum. Those parents who blame teachers for their kid's inability to read or do math are simply making excuses for their own failures as parents. Parents who constantly stoke the flame of curiosity in their toddlers and children can instill an attitude that absorbs learning rather than one that resists. Parents should surround their children with learning opportunities in the home (and I'm not talking about expensive "Leap Pad" gadgets and computer programs and such) and regularly USE the simple things like books, music, kids' maps and magazines and LIMIT TV WATCHING. And it's not just the "educational" environment in the home that is so important - but it's the actual home "environment" that is equally important. If the parents are unattentive, self-centered, ill-mannered, aggressive and/or reckless in their own lives - most likely so will the kids be at school. If the homelife of a kid is surrounded by hostility, abuse, instability, crime in the home and regular exposure to a rotating flow of lowlifes, thugs and bums at all hours of the day or night - that puts the kid at a huge educational disadvantage that NO school environment can completely overcome. Most teaching done by parents involves teaching by-example rather than the teaching by-instruction done in schools. But even so, parents should still be heavily involved in instructing their kids in reading at all ages, the mechanics of writing and composition and all levels of elementary math. They should constantly "infuse" learning about science, geography, history and civics - especially in young kids. No doubt about it - Parents are the most important teachers kids will ever have. If that's lacking, the "second line of defense" are the schools and teachers. If parents do their job well, their kids will be far better off even if the schools aren't top-notch. Very well put.

+1

next to that, knowledge is seen as a bad thing--

job well done mr stossel!

democrat court decisions are that education is a 'right'.  As a 'right', no one can be expelled for preventing others from learning by destroying the learning environment.

The 'kids' can do anything they want.  It is illegal for the teachers or administrators to stop them.  There is no way that 'kids' can be forced to do anything in a school.  The law is on the 'kids' side.

The little Godless, fatherless, uneducated little democrats run the schools.  Only the teachers and administrators can be punished, and punished they are, if the subhuman primates don't behave.

When the 'students' (ha ha) don't do what they have to do in order to learn, somebody must be blamed.  It is illegal and socially unaccaptable to blame the students.  Therefore, the teachers must be blamed.  It is as simple as that.

Quoted: democrat court decisions are that education is a 'right'.  As a 'right', no one can be expelled for preventing others from learning by destroying the learning environment. The 'kids' can do anything they want.  It is illegal for the teachers or administrators to stop them.  There is no way that 'kids' can be forced to do anything in a school.  The law is on the 'kids' side. The little Godless, fatherless, uneducated little democrats run the schools.  Only the teachers and administrators can be punished, and punished they are, if the subhuman primates don't behave. When the 'students' (ha ha) don't do what they have to do in order to learn, somebody must be blamed.  It is illegal and socially unaccaptable to blame the students.  Therefore, the teachers must be blamed.  It is as simple as that.

"The basic proposal of the new education is to be that dunces and idlers must not be made to feel inferior to intelligent and industrious pupils. That would be 'undemocratic'."
~ C.S. Lewis.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The teachers are there and paid to make sure the students understand the concepts.   What are the students there to do? learn. They have to do their part too. It's a 2 way street.

It's not a two way street. It's probably a 20 way street if anything, when you take into account the student, the parents, the teacher, the administration, the teachers (some work together in groups), the community, the distrct, the county, the state, the federal government, the psychologists, and all the others who have an impact on one child's education.

I always chime in on these education threads, because it hits very close to home...it's what I do for a living.

Threads on ARFCOM on teaching usually devolve into 2 main generalizations:
1.  public schools suck because my experience with public schools sucked
2.  public schools are a cover for the liberal government's business-as-usual mentality and the status quo is artificially maintained by teacher unions, lazy/disgruntled teachers, and ridiculous administrative/taxing policies, so thus, where are my vouchers to fix it all?

(I hope #2 didn't really make a lot of sense, because I intended it that way)

I'm not gonna try to argue any of this, as I think it would fall on deaf ears.  95% of you are products of public education, so you've seen one side of the fence.  The other side, where I now reside, is a lot different than you might think, but that's another story.

Instead, here's what I'll do.  I'm going to offer a challenge to those of you who have or will someday have children in public school.

Be the kind of parent that we teachers love to work with.  Be involved with your child's life and education.  

Be a family.  Divorce is shitty, and being a single-parent is hard, but it's nothing compared to what a lot of kids go through in those times.

Discipline your child and teach them that doing right isn't based on avoiding consequences, but should be based on being a good person and citizen.  

Be the parent that motivates your child, at an early age, to enjoy learning and that school isn't just glorified babysitting because the only real reason you're there is because mommy and daddy have to go to work during the daytime.

Be the parent that emails or calls now and then and asks "how is Junior doing?  Let me know if there's any big tests/projects or issues that need to be resolved."  Teachers LOVE THAT.

Be the parent that takes an adolescent's complaints about a teacher with a grain of salt.  They may not necessarily be lying, but teens are wonderful exaggerators and twisters of truth.

Be the parent that stresses to their kids the importance of learning and excercising the brain...that critical thinking will develop skills to be used much later in life.  It's the students that whine "why do I have to know this to be a fashion designer" that make it apparent that mommy and daddy have bought too many toys and electronics and haven't sat and talked about life with their 7th grader.  You hear complaints about kids who can't find "Wyoming" on a map?  Whose fault is that?

The list could go on, but I'll cut it off here.  

Do these things, and if somehow, you still feel the school system has failed you, then I apologize.

Quoted: I always chime in on these education threads, because it hits very close to home...it's what I do for a living. Threads on ARFCOM on teaching usually devolve into 2 main generalizations: 1.  public schools suck because my experience with public schools sucked 2.  public schools are a cover for the liberal government's business-as-usual mentality and the status quo is artificially maintained by teacher unions, lazy/disgruntled teachers, and ridiculous administrative/taxing policies, so thus, where are my vouchers to fix it all? (I hope #2 didn't really make a lot of sense, because I intended it that way) I'm not gonna try to argue any of this, as I think it would fall on deaf ears.  95% of you are products of public education, so you've seen one side of the fence.  The other side, where I now reside, is a lot different than you might think, but that's another story. Instead, here's what I'll do.  I'm going to offer a challenge to those of you who have or will someday have children in public school. Be the kind of parent that we teachers love to work with.  Be involved with your child's life and education.   Be a family.  Divorce is shitty, and being a single-parent is hard, but it's nothing compared to what a lot of kids go through in those times. Discipline your child and teach them that doing right isn't based on avoiding consequences, but should be based on being a good person and citizen.   Be the parent that motivates your child, at an early age, to enjoy learning and that school isn't just glorified babysitting because the only real reason you're there is because mommy and daddy have to go to work during the daytime. Be the parent that emails or calls now and then and asks "how is Junior doing?  Let me know if there's any big tests/projects or issues that need to be resolved."  Teachers LOVE THAT. Be the parent that takes an adolescent's complaints about a teacher with a grain of salt.  They may not necessarily be lying, but teens are wonderful exaggerators and twisters of truth. Be the parent that stresses to their kids the importance of learning and excercising the brain...that critical thinking will develop skills to be used much later in life.  It's the students that whine "why do I have to know this to be a fashion designer" that make it apparent that mommy and daddy have bought too many toys and electronics and haven't sat and talked about life with their 7th grader.  You hear complaints about kids who can't find "Wyoming" on a map?  Whose fault is that? The list could go on, but I'll cut it off here.   Do these things, and if somehow, you still feel the school system has failed you, then I apologize.

VERY well said Leaky...

CMOS

Quoted: I always chime in on these education threads, because it hits very close to home...it's what I do for a living. Threads on ARFCOM on teaching usually devolve into 2 main generalizations: 1.  public schools suck because my experience with public schools sucked 2.  public schools are a cover for the liberal government's business-as-usual mentality and the status quo is artificially maintained by teacher unions, lazy/disgruntled teachers, and ridiculous administrative/taxing policies, so thus, where are my vouchers to fix it all? (I hope #2 didn't really make a lot of sense, because I intended it that way) I'm not gonna try to argue any of this, as I think it would fall on deaf ears.  95% of you are products of public education, so you've seen one side of the fence.  The other side, where I now reside, is a lot different than you might think, but that's another story. Instead, here's what I'll do.  I'm going to offer a challenge to those of you who have or will someday have children in public school. Be the kind of parent that we teachers love to work with.  Be involved with your child's life and education.   Be a family.  Divorce is shitty, and being a single-parent is hard, but it's nothing compared to what a lot of kids go through in those times. Discipline your child and teach them that doing right isn't based on avoiding consequences, but should be based on being a good person and citizen.   Be the parent that motivates your child, at an early age, to enjoy learning and that school isn't just glorified babysitting because the only real reason you're there is because mommy and daddy have to go to work during the daytime. Be the parent that emails or calls now and then and asks "how is Junior doing?  Let me know if there's any big tests/projects or issues that need to be resolved."  Teachers LOVE THAT. Be the parent that takes an adolescent's complaints about a teacher with a grain of salt.  They may not necessarily be lying, but teens are wonderful exaggerators and twisters of truth. Be the parent that stresses to their kids the importance of learning and excercising the brain...that critical thinking will develop skills to be used much later in life.  It's the students that whine "why do I have to know this to be a fashion designer" that make it apparent that mommy and daddy have bought too many toys and electronics and haven't sat and talked about life with their 7th grader.  You hear complaints about kids who can't find "Wyoming" on a map?  Whose fault is that? The list could go on, but I'll cut it off here.   Do these things, and if somehow, you still feel the school system has failed you, then I apologize.

Hear! Hear!

Very well said.  I hope we turn out to be the kind of parents that you outline above.  

Quoted: <snip> Be the parent that takes an adolescent's complaints about a teacher with a grain of salt.  They may not necessarily be lying, but teens are wonderful exaggerators and twisters of truth. <snip> Do these things, and if somehow, you still feel the school system has failed you, then I apologize.

Yeah right. I have to say, that is just an example of what's wrong with a lot of teachers. A lot of times, there is truth in what is being said by the student. more correctly it should say:

Be the parent that investigates an adolexcent's complaints about a teacher.

Keep in mind that investigate is not the same as accusing. This is coming from someone who had parents like you want, and quite frankly, the teachers and administrators would outright lie to my parents because they didn't want them to know the truth about what was happening in the school. My parents would have never believed all the self-esteem, affirmative action and misc. other PC crap spread in the school.