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Posted: 1/13/2006 6:08:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 6:09:15 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]
I check my mail account today, and lo and behold I get an e-mail from a law firm in Guam about Beretta M9/92 slide seperations!

Some of you may remember that I wrote an article a while back about the Beretta M9 pistol. I got tired of hearing a bunch of gunshop intarweb know-it-alls talking about Berettas that would snap their slides and cut your head off if you fired them, so I went in search of hard evidence of such failures.

After asking where to get information on the topic on a couple of websites, someone told me that Congress had hearings on the matter. I then searched the GAO website and found a few documents that gave some actual hardcore evidence that only a handfull of pistols suffered slide seperations and even then only 3 of those seperations occoured in the field to NSWG members. They suffered minor injuries requiring at worst a couple of stitches.

That was a few years ago.

Today I get an e-mail from an attorney in Guam who claims his client was injured "severely" by a broken Beretta slide "just like the Navy SEALs in your article" (they weren't injured severely!!!) and he wants to talk to me about what "other" information I have (which is absolutely ZERO) and about the possibility of TESTIFYING for his case.



Do you believe this?

First of all, I don't know squat except for what was in those GAO documents because as far as I have been able to find out, there IS no solid information outside those GAO documents. Secondly, I wasn't anywhere around the M9 when all that was going on and have no inside information on anything. Thirdly, what on earth makes the guy think I am willing to get involved in a bloody court case on this????

I politely but firmly responded that all I know I learned from publicly available documents that he can get the same way I did, and that I am not going to testify in a trial on the matter.

Good thing I wrote that article under an assumed name!!!

I swear, you can't do anything anymore without a friggin lawyer getting involved in it!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:11:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:12:00 PM EDT
friggen A.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:12:11 PM EDT
get him to fly you out there and pay for lodging and whatnot, then totally destroy his case
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:14:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
get him to fly you out there and pay for lodging and whatnot, then totally destroy his case



+1
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:15:00 PM EDT
I guess you be an 'expert'.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:16:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
get him to fly you out there and pay for lodging and whatnot, then totally destroy his case



If I had anything to contribute, I might actually think about that.

But the simple fact is that I gots nothin' over here!

All the guy has to do is call the GAO with a FOIA request and they will give him everything they have on the M9. Why drag my sorry rear end into all this???

I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:17:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AZ_newguy:
I guess you be an 'expert'.



If I am his hope for an "expert" on Beretta slide seperations, then he is in deep deep poop.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:19:27 PM EDT
Crack pots like him are one of the reasons that the prices of our beloved firearms have risen. I'm glad you've decided to not testify. Or on the other hand, you could testify what you found in your research and have it make him look like a baffoon, ensuring that Beretta comes out on top.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:19:37 PM EDT
By the standard in most jurisdictions, youd probably qualify as an expert. You probably boned yourself out of at least 3-5 grand, which you could easily charge him (if he wants you) for telling him the absolute truth, after which he'd decide whether to pay you more money to fly to Guam and repeat it for the jury, or sit in a deposition for a couple of hours and say it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:20:09 PM EDT
WWCND?



­

<­BR>





­

<­BR>What Would Chuck Norris Do?

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:20:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.



Make them give you free firearms to "bribe" you, otherwise you will "have" to testify against them.


Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:20:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Crack pots like him are one of the reasons that the prices of our beloved firearms have risen. I'm glad you've decided to not testify. Or on the other hand, you could testify what you found in your research and have it make him look like a baffoon, ensuring that Beretta comes out on top.



Why not make the moron pay a few thousand dollars for a phone call and letter telling him he has no case?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:21:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.




DO IT!!!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:24:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
By the standard in most jurisdictions, youd probably qualify as an expert.



You have GOT to be kidding me!!!



You probably boned yourself out of at least 3-5 grand, which you could easily charge him (if he wants you) for telling him the absolute truth, after which he'd decide whether to pay you more money to fly to Guam and repeat it for the jury, or sit in a deposition for a couple of hours and say it.



DAMMIT!!!

I KNEW I should have talked to ARFCOM before responding!! That could have paid for a new AR, a new FAL, AND a couple of trips to Blackwater!!!

Oh, well....
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:25:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.




DO IT!!!



Seriously? Because if it wouldn't put me in any legal jeapordy I would happily inform Beretta of the contact and send them the e-mail.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:26:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:33:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.




DO IT!!!



Seriously? Because if it wouldn't put me in any legal jeapordy I would happily inform Beretta of the contact and send them the e-mail.



No jeopardy at all. If he retained you to advise him, you'd be covered by his work-product privilege and prohibited from disclosing what you told him. However, receiving and rejecting a solicitation carries no obligations for you at all.

Here's Florida's expert rule:

If scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact in understanding the evidence or in determining a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify about it in the form of an opinion; however, the opinion is admissible only if it can be applied to evidence at trial.

If you know more than the jury (or judge in a bench trial), can articulate the information, and it'd be useful, you're an expert.

You were being solicited as a subject matter expert. That is an expert whose testimony does not involve the specific events or devices involved in the case, but the field or area to which they belong. One might hire a plumber to explain how hot water gets to your tub, and then an engineer who examined your house to explain why the water heater blew up. The last one I used was a psychologist who basically summarized current studies and theories on homosexual parents.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:34:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
It's a trap!

Do you have any ex-wifes in Guam?



Nope.

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:38:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
No jeopardy at all. If he retained you to advise him, you'd be covered by his work-product privilege and prohibited from disclosing what you told him. However, receiving and rejecting a solicitation carries no obligations for you at all.

Here's Florida's expert rule:

If scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact in understanding the evidence or in determining a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify about it in the form of an opinion; however, the opinion is admissible only if it can be applied to evidence at trial.

If you know more than the jury (or judge in a bench trial), can articulate the information, and it'd be useful, you're an expert.



Golly.

I think the best course of action is to just try to ignore all of this and see if he contacts me again. He would have to be pretty stupid to think I would be a favorable witness after the e-mail I sent him:

"The article I wrote, "The True Story of the Beretta M9 Pistol" was written in an attempt to clear up constant internet rumors I heard about the Beretta M9/92 series pistols, as well as rumors I heard among gun enthusiasts. I heard all sorts of horror stories about how members of the Naval Special Warfare Group were severely injured and hospitalized (or even killed) because of the slides on their issue M9 pistols fracturing.

In an attempt to discover whether this was true or not, I began searching through the Government Accounting Office website for information about the M9 pistol. I found three documents, specifically NSIAD-88-213, NSIAD-88-46, NSIAD-89-59, which mentioned the M9 problems and investigations.

Every documentable fact in my article is taken directly from those GAO documents. The GAO documents painted a very different picture than the rumors I had heard. There were only a handful of documented slide seperations and most of those happened within a test lab investigating an entirely seperate issue with the earliest M9 pistols. The GAO documentation said that there were, in fact, only three slide seperations that happened in the field, and those happened to NSWG personell resulting in only very minor injuries. The rumors I heard, it appears, were completely untrue. I could not find ANY hard evidence anywhere of any injury more severe than a couple of stitches in my search of government documents.

The purpose of my article was solely to make people aware of the official government records on the M9 pistol in hopes of stopping some of the silly internet rumors about the weapon. .

I have no firsthand knowledge of any of the events or players in the situations. I have never witnessed personally, or seen any credible evidence of a slide seperation on an M9 or Beretta 92 pistol outside the GAO documentation I already mentioned. As I stated in the article, the very same documents are available through the GAO website for anyone who wishes to search for them. If you obtain those documents from the GAO, you will have obtained all the information I am aware of in regards to the slide seperation issue on Beretta pistols.

I have no interest in testifying in court on this matter. I have no information that is not already publicly available via government websites or FOIA requests to government agencies. I have no background as an engineer or as an armorer of the Beretta 92 series of pistols. My only familiarity with the 92 series of pistols comes from the research I mentioned and the fact that I own two of them. Mine have never given me a moment's trouble.

If you are looking for an expert witness to testify about problems with the M9 and slide seperations, I am not your man. All of the information I printed in that article was directly from the GAO documents I have previously mentioned. You would be far better off obtaining those documents from the GAO and reviewing them yourself instead of talking to me.

I simply have nothing to contribute that would pass muster in a court of law.

Have a nice day"



You were being solicited as a subject matter expert. That is an expert whose testimony does not involve the specific events or devices involved in the case, but the field or area to which they belong. One might hire a plumber to explain how hot water gets to your tub, and then an engineer who examined your house to explain why the water heater blew up. The last one I used was a psychologist who basically summarized current studies and theories on homosexual parents.



Well then I guess I need to change my signature!

John_Wayne777: An Guam court certified expert.....
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:44:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
By the standard in most jurisdictions, youd probably qualify as an expert. You probably boned yourself out of at least 3-5 grand, which you could easily charge him (if he wants you) for telling him the absolute truth, after which he'd decide whether to pay you more money to fly to Guam and repeat it for the jury, or sit in a deposition for a couple of hours and say it.



And all he has to do is help some lawyer rob a firearms company...
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:54:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 6:58:22 PM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
And all he has to do is help some lawyer rob a firearms company...



I couldn't lie about what little I know. If I did end up on a witness stand or in a deposition I would have to tell the truth, meaning I would have to say that the rumors about the M9 are overblown according to the GOA documentation, and that there have only been 3 confirmed injuries out of probably half a million or a million pistols that have been produced, and even then only with the very earliest models.

Those injuries, according to the government documentation, were minor and easily gotten over.

I would also have to say that in my personal experience Berettas are safe and reliable pistols that I have put thousands of trouble-free rounds downrange with, and that I have never seen ANY credible documentation of ANY slide failures outside the GOA documentation I mentioned. The only injuries recorded were also with CIVILIAN model Beretta 92 pistols rather than with the actual M9 production weapons.

Thus I don't think this guy would want me as a witness. Honestly, I don't think he read the whole article as it was PRO Beretta 92 the whole way. I treated the topic honestly, and the truth is that the 92 is a good weapon with a lower failure rate than just about any other consumer product out there.

As it is I am seriously thinking about firing an e-mail to Beretta USA to warn them about this guy fishing for a lawsuit.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:55:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
By the standard in most jurisdictions, youd probably qualify as an expert. You probably boned yourself out of at least 3-5 grand, which you could easily charge him (if he wants you) for telling him the absolute truth, after which he'd decide whether to pay you more money to fly to Guam and repeat it for the jury, or sit in a deposition for a couple of hours and say it.



And all he has to do is help some lawyer rob a firearms company...



Did you miss the part in red? Non-whore experts get paid whether you like what they tell you or not. There's not a thing in the world wrong with soaking some ambulance-chasing ignoramus for telling him he doesn't have a case, if he doesn't have a case.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:56:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By midwinter:
WWCND?



­

<­BR>





­

<­BR>
What Would Chuck Norris Do?



Do some serious roundhouse kicking?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 6:59:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Did you miss the part in red? Non-whore experts get paid whether you like what they tell you or not. There's not a thing in the world wrong with soaking some ambulance-chasing ignoramus for telling him he doesn't have a case, if he doesn't have a case.



Well, if nothing else I have learned one thing:

The next time someone contacts me about suing a gun manufacturer based on an article I wrote, I am contacting FLAL1A first to ask for his advice. That way I might make me some danged money!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:01:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
By the standard in most jurisdictions, youd probably qualify as an expert. You probably boned yourself out of at least 3-5 grand, which you could easily charge him (if he wants you) for telling him the absolute truth, after which he'd decide whether to pay you more money to fly to Guam and repeat it for the jury, or sit in a deposition for a couple of hours and say it.



+1
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:07:15 PM EDT
IIRC the .gov/.mil seperations due to them firing Sub gun ammo in it.. Hot rounds.. duh!
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:19:50 PM EDT
Tel lhim that you'll testify for him.

Do whatever he says until you get on the stand.

Then smoke him over by saying that Beretta makes a great product.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:20:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 8:21:21 PM EDT by CAR-10]
I've seen a military slide with a fracture on one of its thinner parts. From what I understand it was some french contract slides in early production models.

ETA, its at the CATM shop at Tyndall. That was back in the summer of 2002.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:30:37 PM EDT
Before you go you need to remember GUAM is actually a Navy Acronym dating from the days that the Department of the Navy administered the island. Stands for Give Up And Masturbate.

There's some nice scuba diving but other than that, not much more than a free flight to a fairly nice tropical island instead of staying in VA all winter.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 8:42:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
get him to fly you out there and pay for lodging and whatnot, then totally destroy his case



If I had anything to contribute, I might actually think about that.

But the simple fact is that I gots nothin' over here!

All the guy has to do is call the GAO with a FOIA request and they will give him everything they have on the M9. Why drag my sorry rear end into all this???
I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.



Because you've already done his work for him. And it sounds like he expects the findings to back up his claim. Which it sounds like it doesn't.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 9:59:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
IIRC the .gov/.mil seperations due to them firing Sub gun ammo in it.. Hot rounds.. duh!



No, it wasn't. According to the GAO reports it was because of a defect in the manufacturing process that resulted in an improper tensile strength.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:05:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CAR-10:
I've seen a military slide with a fracture on one of its thinner parts. From what I understand it was some french contract slides in early production models.

ETA, its at the CATM shop at Tyndall. That was back in the summer of 2002.



I don't know of any French production slides. All I ever saw referrenced in the .gov documentation were Italian and American produced slides. Italian produced slides were used on the earliest M9 models while the Maryland plant was still getting up and running. Relatively few M9s were produced with Italian slides. (there were almost 400,000 M9 pistols ordered in total...) By the time the slide seperation issue became apparent, production had shifted fully to the Maryland plant. There is no government documentation of a slide produced in the United States having the same low metal hardness that the Army and the GAO blamed for the slide seperation issue.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:07:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 10:12:18 AM EDT
I would apply a sledgehammer to my own scrotum before I would testify against a gun company in a liability suit,
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:04:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
get him to fly you out there and pay for lodging and whatnot, then totally destroy his case



If I had anything to contribute, I might actually think about that.

But the simple fact is that I gots nothin' over here!

All the guy has to do is call the GAO with a FOIA request and they will give him everything they have on the M9. Why drag my sorry rear end into all this???

I have half a mind to contact Beretta USA and tell them about this so they can get the drop on this guy.



That's what I'd do. United we stand, devided we fall.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 12:09:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By txgp17:
Crack pots like him are one of the reasons that the prices of our beloved firearms have risen. I'm glad you've decided to not testify. Or on the other hand, you could testify what you found in your research and have it make him look like a baffoon, ensuring that Beretta comes out on top.



You better becareful or some crackpot in TX will call you out like other internet thugs.

John you should have accepted. He would have paid you for your time and toubles and you could just stated the truth. Paid working vacation.
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