Quoted: Quoted: In a way, I agree. However, the officer in the story agreed with the homeowner. LEO's, being human, are as culpable as anyone. Does the fact that the officer agreed with the homeowner justify the act? I don't think so. The fact that it's someone he knew for 15 years just makes it smell really bad since that makes the officer just as wrong in my opinion--he was predisposed to take sides whether it was right or wrong. The officer exercised poor judgement and lost his objectivity in the situation. Sorry guys, I have to go against "popular" opinion here which is kinda troubling to me. If the majority of gun owners agree with the home owners action, then we're giving the gun grabbers more ammunition against us.

Yeah, what he said.

I think you overreacted. What would you have done if he did not comply with your demands or turned around and gave you lip? Would you have shot him maybe a butt stroke to the head? Or what if it was the electric guy checking your meter or something. What if while your safety off and finger on the trigger, your dog jumped up on your leg and you accidently popped the guy in the head.  How long does it take you to move your finger from the side of the trigger to engage a target? Especially against a target that is not an immediate threat. I am all for being prepared, but I think this is retarded.

Quoted: I do not think four loaded mag.s was to much. I spent to much time cruising my ass around in a squad car with a .357 or a .45 with regs saying  we could only carry a only so many rounds. I went out with what I thought was needed, by the way the dog was acting there could have ben more. A little covered item from this area is that looters have cased the area and they show up with pick ups and cleanout homes and garages. Nobody home no problem. I went out with the idea that I would confront 4 or more based on the reports from the area. Were they armed some have been some not, I did not know. You wish to judge from you secure location , ok flame away I know what has happened here where homes are being rebuilt and the dirtballs show up and steal everything. They have guns the contractors don't

I have questions to better understand this situation that you should be able to clarify.
1) Why would you have not called 911 before exiting your house thus minimizing the response time for back up to arrive?
2) If you truly believed there were up to 4 perps, yet could only visually make out one of them, then why would you exit the relative safety of your house and present  yourself to 3 additional  unidentified and per your description armed perps?
3) Is it legal to shoot and kill someone robbing your property in your state or do you have to feel your life was at risk?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In a way, I agree. However, the officer in the story agreed with the homeowner. LEO's, being human, are as culpable as anyone. Does the fact that the officer agreed with the homeowner justify the act? I don't think so. The fact that it's someone he knew for 15 years just makes it smell really bad since that makes the officer just as wrong in my opinion--he was predisposed to take sides whether it was right or wrong. The officer exercised poor judgement and lost his objectivity in the situation. Sorry guys, I have to go against "popular" opinion here which is kinda troubling to me. If the majority of gun owners agree with the home owners action, then we're giving the gun grabbers more ammunition against us. Yeah, what he said.

plus a million

I'm all for protecting your property but when did being a total asshole become part of the equation. Are you REALLY that paranoid that you needed to come running out with your pimped ar, 4 mags AND a sidearm? You really felt that threatened? Didn't you MAYBE just want a chance to be a tough guy with your toys? Couldn't you simply have watched him for a little while and waited to see if he actually entered your house? Wouldn't that have been safer than exposing yourself? How about calling the cops from inside and letting them do their job? Jebus. Sorry if I come off as harsh and I'm glad it worked out ok but it could have gone terribly. It could have ended up on the brady bunch's website as another reason I shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

I'd say your reaction seems a bit over the top.............

I can understand walking out to confront the guy with a concealed sidearm, chances are the guy just would have told you what he was doing and got off of your property....now if things would have gotten hairy, by all means pull out your sidearm.

BUT!!....to storm out of your house with your AR and draw down on a guy is NUTS!  Safety off and finger on the trigger....maybe if the guy really started to scare you.   And then calling the cops on the guy after he told you what he was doing.  Why didn't you just check his ID and let him leave?

Sounds like you took things a little to overboard.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In a way, I agree. However, the officer in the story agreed with the homeowner. LEO's, being human, are as culpable as anyone. Does the fact that the officer agreed with the homeowner justify the act? I don't think so. The fact that it's someone he knew for 15 years just makes it smell really bad since that makes the officer just as wrong in my opinion--he was predisposed to take sides whether it was right or wrong. The officer exercised poor judgement and lost his objectivity in the situation. Sorry guys, I have to go against "popular" opinion here which is kinda troubling to me. If the majority of gun owners agree with the home owners action, then we're giving the gun grabbers more ammunition against us. Yeah, what he said. plus a million I'm all for protecting your property but when did being a total asshole become part of the equation. Are you REALLY that paranoid that you needed to come running out with your pimped ar, 4 mags AND a sidearm? You really felt that threatened? Didn't you MAYBE just want a chance to be a tough guy with your toys? Couldn't you simply have watched him for a little while and waited to see if he actually entered your house? Wouldn't that have been safer than exposing yourself? How about calling the cops from inside and letting them do their job? Jebus. Sorry if I come off as harsh and I'm glad it worked out ok but it could have gone terribly. It could have ended up on the brady bunch's website as another reason I shouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

If he was paranoid, the student would be shot.

Hindsight is 20/20

Private means "not public"

From the original post, there seems to be enough history in the area to do as was done.

Hindsight is 20/20

Hindsight is 20/20

Hindsight is 20/20

In other words, its easy to pick apart the situation after it all has happened.  Why four mags and a sidearm?  Because its what he wanted at the time.  He determined his own need (instead of the gubbermint doing it for him, HELLO!)

It was a fluid situation (no, not super-hi-speed but the point is made), and as far as I am concerned he nipped it in the bud.

Some said "stay inside, call 911!!".  Well, then why have guns if the police can solve all the problems?

+1 for insane/retarded/nutjob.

You keep referring to him as a dirtbag, slimeball, and puke.  Well his story checked out and he was just doing a survey, yet somehow he´s still a badguy?  I´ve found that to be a typical characteristic of police though -- assume everyone is a criminal.  Why don´t you give people the benefit of the doubt?  

How would you feel in your cop days if you were snooping around my garage after a burglary call and I came running out with my AR w/ 4 mags + sidearm?  Oh right, you´re the cop, so I´d be the criminal in that case.

I think you´re retarded for drawing an AR with your finger on the trigger because someone walked into your driveway.  If you would have waited 30 seconds to go put on your tac vest, then there´s probably a good chance he would have rung the doorbell.

Although, I have to admit that working any job that involves dealing with customers, you will tend to develop a hatred for your customers.  Being a cop is just about the only profession where every once in a while you get to beat the shit out of one of your 'customers'.

Very interesting.  Do you self medicate or do you receive help?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In a way, I agree. However, the officer in the story agreed with the homeowner. LEO's, being human, are as culpable as anyone. Does the fact that the officer agreed with the homeowner justify the act? I don't think so. The fact that it's someone he knew for 15 years just makes it smell really bad since that makes the officer just as wrong in my opinion--he was predisposed to take sides whether it was right or wrong. The officer exercised poor judgement and lost his objectivity in the situation. Sorry guys, I have to go against "popular" opinion here which is kinda troubling to me. If the majority of gun owners agree with the home owners action, then we're giving the gun grabbers more ammunition against us. Yeah, what he said. plus a million I'm all for protecting your property but when did being a total asshole become part of the equation. Are you REALLY that paranoid that you needed to come running out with your pimped ar, 4 mags AND a sidearm? You really felt that threatened? Didn't you MAYBE just want a chance to be a tough guy with your toys? Couldn't you simply have watched him for a little while and waited to see if he actually entered your house? Wouldn't that have been safer than exposing yourself? How about calling the cops from inside and letting them do their job? Jebus. Sorry if I come off as harsh and I'm glad it worked out ok but it could have gone terribly. It could have ended up on the brady bunch's website as another reason I shouldn't be allowed to have a gun. If he was paranoid, the student would be shot. Hindsight is 20/20 Private means "not public" From the original post, there seems to be enough history in the area to do as was done. Hindsight is 20/20 Hindsight is 20/20 Hindsight is 20/20 In other words, its easy to pick apart the situation after it all has happened.  Why four mags and a sidearm?  Because its what he wanted at the time.  He determined his own need (instead of the gubbermint doing it for him, HELLO!) It was a fluid situation (no, not super-hi-speed but the point is made), and as far as I am concerned he nipped it in the bud. Some said "stay inside, call 911!!".  Well, then why have guns if the police can solve all the problems?

I say hide in the house and let the police handle it because thats what my taxes pay them to do. If they shoot the wrong guy, I don't go to jail.

The 911 call was under way when I went outthe door.
I put my self In a corner that had  three sides protected. You ask would I have popped him
Did I feel threat at he time. no he is still alive.
Is it extreme, maybe but considering what has been going on in the area, no
The media has been distracted  by the other F-4 in the area

You guys crappin' on snarfbatt got some balls I tell ya'.

Here are the facts:

House is damaged and in a natural disaster area.

Looters are KNOWN to be ACTIVE and ARMED in his AO traveling in packs of up to 4 individuals

Area is KNOWN as a METH HAVEN (these are not Purdue eggheads btw)

Snarfbatt is former LEO and is TRAINED to DRAW DOWN, you civilian folk may not be trained that way, but HE IS.... you fight like you TRAINED TO FIGHT

Single male trespasser could have been the scout for a pack of Looters

Just so you idiots KNOW, eggheads no longer generally look like eggheads... the fashion at its height right now is DRAGGLED looking 70's big hair that on young folks makes them look like complete bums... no more clean cut herds of nerds with pocket protectors... they are mostly gone... long hair, and knit hats pulled down low are the norm.... not totally clean looking is "in"

Garage that egghead was headed to was full of goods that snarf makes his living off of... ie.. valuables

natural disaster
Looters armed
Meth heads armed
scummy looking stranger (poss)
headed for garage
no knock on front door to intro self

gun gets pulled for a fact

If you are so friggen stupid that you cant add this situation up correctly, go find a stump and break your firearms on it, you dont deserve them.

Good job snarfbat.

Dram out

Quoted: Very interesting.  Do you self medicate or do you receive help?

Aren't you the guy that spent the night in jail for threats against the life of your roommate a few weeks back because he messed with your optics?  Double

Good job snarf

You earned the name sniffing ladies underwear, didn't you.

As far as the story goes, it sounds reasonably true.  I wonder what would have been the outcome if you hadn't known the local PD.

Damn, that is a hell of a response. I have answered the door with a gun hidden from view and spoken to people with a gun hidden from view but ready to go. Pulling an AR on a guy who walked in your back yard is assault. By holding there at gun point you also commited unlawful imprisonment.
Dude you better lawyer up because he has 2 solid charges on you AND a police officer as a witness, if this actually happened and the BS flag is fake you are kerf*cked!
To clarify this is according to Indiana state law.

    Sec. 2.

(a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in using deadly force only if he reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to himself or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting himself or his family by reasonable means necessary.

(b) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on his dwelling or curtilage.

(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling or curtilage, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in his possession, lawfully in possession of a member of his immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property he has authority to protect. However, a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under subsection (a) of this section.

(d) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c) of this section, a person is not justified in using force if:

(1) he is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;

(2) he provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or

(3) he has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor, unless he withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person his intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.

IC 35-41-3-3

Sec. 3.

(a) A person other than a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force against another person to effect an arrest or prevent the other person's escape if:

(1) a felony has been committed; and

(2) there is probable cause to believe the other person committed that felony.

However, such a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under section 2 of this chapter.

(b) A law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force if the officer reasonably believes that the force is necessary to effect a lawful arrest. However, an officer is justified in using deadly force only if the officer:

(1) has probable cause to believe that that deadly force is necessary:

(A) to prevent the commission of a forcible felony; or

(B) to effect an arrest of a person who the officer has probable cause to believe poses a threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or a third person; and

(2) has given a warning, if feasible, to the person against whom the deadly force is to be used.

(c) A law enforcement officer making an arrest under an invalid warrant is justified in using force as if the warrant was valid, unless the officer knows that the warrant is invalid.

(d) A law enforcement officer who has an arrested person in custody is justified in using the same force to prevent the escape of the arrested person from custody that the officer would be justified in using if the officer was arresting that person. However, an officer is justified in using deadly force only if the officer:

(1) has probable cause to believe that deadly force is necessary to prevent the escape from custody of a person who the officer has probable cause to believe poses a threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or a third person; and

(2) has given a warning, if feasible, to the person against whom the deadly force is to be used.

(e) A guard or other official in a penal facility or a law enforcement officer is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, if the officer has probable cause to believe that the force is necessary to prevent the escape of a person who is detained in the penal facility.

(f) Notwithstanding subsection (b), (d), or (e), a law enforcement officer who is a defendant in a criminal prosecution has the same right as a person who is not a law enforcement officer to assert self-defense under IC 35-41-3-2.

IC 35-47-8-1

Sec. 1. As used in this chapter, "electronic stun weapon" means any mechanism that is:

(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of charge that exceeds the equivalency of a five (5) milliamp sixty (60) hertz shock; and

(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-2

Sec. 2. As used in this chapter, "stun gun" means any mechanism that is:

(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of charge that equals or does not exceed the equivalency of a five (5) milliamp sixty (60) hertz shock; and

(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-3

Sec. 3. As used in this chapter, "taser" means any mechanism that is:

(1) designed to emit an electronic, magnetic, or other type of charge or shock through the use of a projectile; and

(2) used for the purpose of temporarily incapacitating a person.

IC 35-47-8-5

Sec. 5.

(a) A person eighteen (18) years of age or over may purchase or possess a stun gun.

(b) A person who sells or furnishes a stun gun to a person who is less than eighteen (18) years of age commits a Class B misdemeanor.

(c) A person who uses a stun gun in the commission of a crime commits a Class A misdemeanor.

(d) A person who uses a stun gun on a law enforcement officer while the officer is performing the officer's duties commits a Class D felony

Quoted: He aimed in on a guy who was presenting no threat to him, safety off and finger on trigger, with one hand while making a cell phone call with the other.

+1

That's the part that is completely unreasonable and incredibly reckless.  

Covering a person with safety off, and finger ON the trigger (while holding the AR in one hand), after the person has cooperated, has provided an ID, and is 40 feet away.




As an aside, I also don't quite understand the sequence of events here.  

First, snarfbatt said:

I see unknown white male step onto the patio like he is going to go into the garage, that was it I stepped out Ar in arms EOTech on full mag. in locked and loaded with three spares. I told the douch bag to stop in his tracks from about 40 feet and identify himself now. He starts telling me he from Purdue and doing a survey of the damage to old growth trees in the area from the tornado. I tell him to produce Id place it on the ground and step back to the back of the patio aboout 30 feet and keep hands where I can see them. I retreive ID place it on the near by gas grill and dial the c phone to local pd with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the trigger. I get a dispatcher that know me, and I tell her I have a subject that was in my opinion attempting to enter my garage and I was holding him at gun point, Car dispatched asap.

But then later, he said:

The 911 call was under way when I went outthe door.

So when did the phone call take place, exactly - before he went out the door, or after he got the ID from this terrified Purdue student?

Quoted: (b) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on his dwelling or curtilage.

Looks like legal justification for his actions to me!  Then again, I am not a lawyer!

(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling or curtilage, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in his possession, lawfully in possession of a member of his immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property he has authority to protect. However, a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under subsection (a) of this section.

Quoted: do you draw down on  jehovah's witnesses and girl scouts selling cookies as well?

Are they headed into the Garage?

Quoted: (c) With respect to property other than a dwelling or curtilage, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in his possession, lawfully in possession of a member of his immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property he has authority to protect. However, a person is not justified in using deadly force unless that force is justified under subsection (a) of this section.

curtilage
n. courtyard; land attached to house
I think this definition covers garage or garage area!

it is enclosed, this area was not, therefore not a curtilage

All I know if that if I were walking up some guys driveway to get help with my broken car....or ask directions, or ask if he'd seen my runaway dog, or my runaway kid........and as I'm aproaching his walkway (next to his open garage) the guy not only walks out of his house with an AR.... but he proceeds he draw down on me with it.....I would be pissed.  

And what would make me even more mad is that after I provide this nut job with my ID...he still calls the cops on me.......what a jerk.

That could have been a neighbor, a guy looking for his pet....who knows.  You just don't draw down on someone because they are walking towards your garage.  Maybe they thought the resident of the home was in there????????????????

WTF!!

Quoted: it is enclosed, this area was not, therefore not a curtilage

He was on land attached to the house!  So even if enclosed areas are not covered under the definition, if he was on land attached to the house it fits legal justification.

interesting thread, the only mistake I think is trigger on the finger, And maybe a little over reaction  with the AR. But I wasn't there
If it was metheads I would rather have my AR than a handgun

I have to go with the gut and say overreaction.

GUNGUY you have no idea what you are talking about. Legally you cannot pull a gun on someone that has walked unto your property. Sorry you just cannot do it. If someone had to open a gate or hop a fence to reach it they have entered the curtilage. Not if they can just walk unto it.
    Do you know the reason for that? It is because if a curtilage was considered the same as all other property you would legally have the right to pull a gun on ANYONE walking up to your front door.
    I'm sorry to break this to you, but the highly trained non-civilian combat medic overeacted and if the person he commited the crime against calls an attorney he will get arrested and most likely go to trial for assault with a deadly weapon and false imprisonment.
    One story like this hurts gun owners more then 20 good stories of them stopping a crime in progress. His own wording in the story made him out to be looking to shoot someone. Shall I dissect this story?

The things in bold are stupid things my civilian non LEO ass would not have done. Italics are my comments.

Ok some of you here have seen the post I have made reference making it after the Southern Indiana tornado of Nov. 6th. I have had all kinds of scum contractors knocking on the door etc.
Repair work is going good but they still show up.
Today I was working in my office at home and Buster the Dog who I got after the tornado just goes nuts. I look out and see a white male walking around the detached garage, knowing that the contractors were not here today I got real pissed fast.
One of my cars was in the drive, the dog is trying like hell to get outside. I see unknown white male step onto the patio like he is going to go into the garage, that was it I stepped out Ar in arms EOTech on full mag. in locked and loaded with three spares.
I told the douch bag to stop  in his tracks from about 40 feet and identify himself now.
He starts telling me he from Purdue and doing a survey of the damage to old growth trees in the area from the tornado. He did ID himself.
I tell him to produce Id place it on the ground and step back to the back of the patio aboout 30 feet and keep hands where I can see them. I retreive ID place it on the near by gas grill and dial the c phone to local pd with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the trigger. You have no legal right to request ID from anyone.
I get a dispatcher that know me, and I tell her I have a subject that was in my opinion attempting to enter my garage and I was holding him at gun point, Car dispatched asap.
Officer arrives code 3 screwing up the rock in driveway What is code 3? Code 1 is lights, code 2 is lights and sirens is code 3 lights sirens and torches?. Thank god It is another officer I have known for 15 years. I tell him what I have and as he walks up I clear my AR, and pull the 1911 from under my sweatshirt. and lay them on the grill. kepping hands visable.
He retrives dumbasses Id and put him in back of squad car and calls in ID. He finds out that yes they are doing tree survey in the area but they need homeowner permission before entering private property.
He lets dumbass chill in the back of his squad car while we talk, he had never seen a EOTECH before, he made a point to schedule a day to go shoot my AR when the weather gets better.
AS I am picking up the AR and 1911 he gets the dumbass from the back of his car.
This is the best part, He proceeded to give one of the best dressing down of this dumbass I have ever seen. He even told the puke that had I shot him I was protecting my property.
Dumbass was complaining that I pulled a gun on him, he told him just WTF do you expect you came onto his property, without notice and were going to area you should not be.
It ended up with the officer talking dumbass back to the head of the survey team with instructions to leave his patrol area. So basically one of your buddies happened to arrive and didn't arrest you because you are old friends.

Wondering why your not a cop anymore, and your in business for yourself.  good luck with that .

Quoted: All I know if that if I were walking up some guys driveway to get help with my broken car....or ask directions, or ask if he'd seen my runaway dog, or my runaway kid........and as I'm aproaching his walkway (next to his open garage) the guy not only walks out of his house with an AR.... but he proceeds he draw down on me with it.....I would be pissed.   And what would make me even more mad is that after I provide this nut job with my ID...he still calls the cops on me.......what a jerk. That could have been a neighbor, a guy looking for his pet....who knows.  You just don't draw down on someone because they are walking towards your garage.  Maybe they thought the resident of the home was in there???????????????? WTF!!

Read the presentation again. Perp was walking AROUND the garage, not up the driveway to the front door. Also, see the bits about natural disaster, looters and meth heads in the rest of the thread.

Ok, so ID was presented....so? Someone gives you an ID and all of a sudden it's OK to be trespassing and snooping around your garage? See the bits about natural disaster, looters and meth heads in the rest of the thread.

You don't go skulking around a garage on someone elses property looking for your pet (or to look at tree damage) without asking at the house first. The poster ID'd the person as someone he didn't recognize, i.e. not a neighbor. Again, read the original post. The "egghead" was walking AROUND the garage, not towards it. The garage is NOT the first place to look for the resident(s) of a unknown home. Usually the front door is the proper place to start.



[directed generally] Normally, I have no use for Indiana. About the only things it's good for is keeping Lake Michigan from flooding us. But, I have to wonder how many of the nay-sayers here were back-slapping the folks from the Gulf Coast when they were protecting their property during their bouts with storms. I mean, this particular incident was only an F-4 tornado, not some big storm with a proper name, right? [/directed generally]

Quoted: GUNGUY you have no idea what you are talking about. Legally you cannot pull a gun on someone that has walked unto your property. Sorry you just cannot do it. If someone had to open a gate or hop a fence to reach it they have entered the curtilage. Not if they can just walk unto it.     Do you know the reason for that? It is because if a curtilage was considered the same as all other property you would legally have the right to pull a gun on ANYONE walking up to your front door..

Actually even though I am not a lawyer, I do happen to know what I am talking about.  Defense of property is justified in Indiana, furthermore, since curtilage is an ambiguous term, a new bill, Senate Bill 51 (I believe, but am looking for it) is amending "curtilage" to "property around the dwelling" and adding vehicles as well.  Walking up to the front door, no, I agree, walking "around the garage" while I would not use deadly force unless absolutely unavoidable, my weapon will be in hand.

Quoted: Quoted: (b) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on his dwelling or curtilage. Looks like legal justification for his actions to me!  Then again, I am not a lawyer!

"If he reasonably believes"

This is where I belive the problem is, he probably believed it. That does NOT make it a fact. People have to have the common sense to make
intelligent choices.   90% of the people in America (and the world) have gotten to the point of having NO common sense and usually can't make intelligent choices

Ted Bundy "believed" he was doing the right thing. Jeffrey Dahlmer "believed" he was normal. Charles Manson "Believed" he was in the right.
Just because someone believes it don't make it so.

I Totally agree in protecting your and other people's LIFE'S with deadly force. But I WILL NOT kill someone over a power drill or other tools that may be in a garage.
As for letting cops do their job..... YES.  If your NOT in immediate danger then you call them and let them handle it,  

I have read a few " I had to draw down" stories on here lately. I fear alot of people on here more than most crimmanals.
It seems the crimmanal leads his life hoping to rob or assault you......
Some members here lead their lives HOPING to have to kill someone....

                Who is more dangerous?  

Oh yeah, I probably wouldn't have felt too threatened as to point the rifle at him with the safety off and finger on the trigger......since he was standing 70 feet away from me ????

Quoted: Dont you think 4 full loaded mags was a bit much, plus your sidearm.

What do you use toothpicks?  Amazing how you know what is necessary before it happens.   Do you own a fire extinguisher or does your psychic powers allow you to know you will never have a fire?  Why is he catching crap from a group on preparedness for being over prepared?  If he had just gone out with a stern look and been killed you would be carping on the news article, 'that would never happen to me because...'

Quoted: I'm not being a smart-ass; I'm just asking a question.  Is a trespass incident reason enough to draw your weapon?

So what do you wait for?

"Well he was only kicking my dog and loading his car from my garage. So I did not draw?
Now had he done that in the house..."

Sorry to be hard, but Trespass and possible entry into a structure? Especially at the back of the property.

The rest of you sound like some of you suggest he should have left the firearm in the safe and just threatened him about the gun in the locked safe.

Without a display of possible force what is the point?  Have any of you seen this?  Timing is everything!

Snarf successfully defended himself and home without injury to another.  LEO found his actions appropriate for the situation.  Luckily he lives in a place where that is understood.  Too bad he gets less understanding from this group.  Yesh!

Midnight, sorry that was not all intended for you.  It's just you seemed to oversimplify his scenario.

Quoted: I really think it's questionable whether you were justified in presenting a weapon under the circumstances. You were not in immediate danger. If you suspect foul play, you should have called 911. You could have your weapon at the ready but going out to confront the "bad guy" is a mistake. Now if he forcibly entered your house, I'd say you would be justified in drawing your weapon.  But he was outside, you were inside, and you were not in immediate danger of any kind. If I was the cop, I would have put YOU in the squad car, not the other guy, and I would have booked you, not just let you think about it in the back seat of the patrol car.   I mean no disrespect here, I just think you had a serious lapse in your judgement.

This is why 'they' have no fear anymnore.  God help us all.

Your tag says AZ, but I suspect I saw you on video from NOL.

Quoted: ..., yet somehow he´s still a badguy?...

If by badguy you mean someone that commits a crime?  What is Trespass?  A Crime... so by the logic he is......

Quoted: I say hide in the house and let the police handle it because thats what my taxes pay them to do. If they shoot the wrong guy, I don't go to jail.

What the hell are you doing here?    The DNC forums miss you.

Quoted: If you are so friggen stupid that you cant add this situation up correctly, go find a stump and break your firearms on it, you dont deserve them. Good job snarfbat. Dram out

+1 or 2cents whichever pisses you off more.

Quoted: (b) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person if he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on his dwelling or curtilage.

Did you bother to read this yourself?  Or did you not read his post?  Why did you bother?

Quoted: I see unknown white male step onto the patio like he is going to go into the garage

Seems you made his point for him.

I think a lot of people are being too hard on the guy, and while I believe he went farther than I would have in the situation (pointing the AR at the guy) I would certainly have confronted him with both hands on my shotgun.

IMO, on your property there's a very big difference between an unidentified person and a hostile person.  I don't point a loaded weapon at someone because they're in my yard in the middle of the day.  


And another thing, to the guy that said "going out to confront the 'bad guy' is a mistake", are you kidding me?!  Would it be better if he had gone to the second floor, opened a window and drawn a bead on the guy the whole time he was walking around on the property?  (First time he makes a move to break into my garage, I double-tap him).  That's creepy.  And locking yourself in the house and waiting for the police to come and deal with him is spineless.

I applaud the guy for walking straight out the front door ready to take on the entire Canadian Army, but I Monday morning quarterback him for drawing down without a visible threat, law or no law.

Quoted: I think a lot of people are being too hard on the guy, and while I believe he went farther than I would have in the situation (pointing the AR at the guy) I would certainly have confronted him with both hands on my shotgun. IMO, on your property there's a very big difference between an unidentified person and a hostile person.  I don't point a loaded weapon at someone because they're in my yard in the middle of the day.   And another thing, to the guy that said "going out to confront the 'bad guy' is a mistake", are you kidding me?!  Would it be better if he had gone to the second floor, opened a window and drawn a bead on the guy the whole time he was walking around on the property?  (First time he makes a move to break into my garage, I double-tap him).  That's creepy.  And locking yourself in the house and waiting for the police to come and deal with him is spineless. I applaud the guy for walking straight out the front door ready to take on the entire Canadian Army, but I Monday morning quarterback him for drawing down without a visible threat, law or no law.

Perhaps one of the most reasonable posts here.  I agree with you I might not have pointed at him depending on what he did, but I would have gone out with 2 hands on a loaded rifle.  As you brought up shotgun it made me think.  Had he gone out with a shotgun I wonder, would he have gotten less crap from this group?  Are shotguns more PC than an AR even on the AR15 boards?  

What would you use?  Vote Here

I may need to take my 2 cents back.  I think I am over paying.  

I had a survey guy come to my house one time, got the wrong house by mistake. Roamed around the yard, set off the dogs just like yours did.

Difference was, I didn't immediately prepare for war, point a loaded weapon at him, and scare the bejesus out of the guy. I just asked him what was going on (pistol concealed on me), cleared up the confusion he said sorry and "have a nice day". I didn't call the cops, berate anyone, I didn't even get that worried.

And, better yet, if I did do that paranoid commando shit to a hapless human being who made a simple mistake, I would NEVER have admitted it, to anyone. Ever.

Quoted: Quoted: with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the  trigger. Pardon my french, but you are a fucking head case, and should lock your guns up until you get some counseling, and possibly some anti-anxiety meds. RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

+1

Quoted: Quoted: with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the  trigger. Pardon my french, but you are a fucking head case, and should lock your guns up until you get some counseling, and possibly some anti-anxiety meds. RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

+1

Quoted: Quoted: I really think it's questionable whether you were justified in presenting a weapon under the circumstances. You were not in immediate danger. If you suspect foul play, you should have called 911. You could have your weapon at the ready but going out to confront the "bad guy" is a mistake. Now if he forcibly entered your house, I'd say you would be justified in drawing your weapon.  But he was outside, you were inside, and you were not in immediate danger of any kind. If I was the cop, I would have put YOU in the squad car, not the other guy, and I would have booked you, not just let you think about it in the back seat of the patrol car.   I mean no disrespect here, I just think you had a serious lapse in your judgement. Hate to do it, but I must agree.  You took it too far.

I actually think the only way he screwed up was with his weapon handling safety, which was totally absent.  He's confronting a trespasser.  He is within his rights in my view.  Indiana (that's where this was right?) law may differ.  But I don't believe there is a brandishing law in IN.

Quoted: GUNGUY you have no idea what you are talking about. Legally you cannot pull a gun on someone that has walked unto your property. Sorry you just cannot do it. If someone had to open a gate or hop a fence to reach it they have entered the curtilage. Not if they can just walk unto it.     Do you know the reason for that? It is because if a curtilage was considered the same as all other property you would legally have the right to pull a gun on ANYONE walking up to your front door.     I'm sorry to break this to you, but the highly trained non-civilian combat medic overeacted and if the person he commited the crime against calls an attorney he will get arrested and most likely go to trial for assault with a deadly weapon and false imprisonment.

I doubt that this is the case in IN, where there is no law against brandishing I can find.

One story like this hurts gun owners more then 20 good stories of them stopping a crime in progress. His own wording in the story made him out to be looking to shoot someone. Shall I dissect this story?

Proceed.

The things in bold are stupid things my civilian non LEO ass would not have done. Italics are my comments. I told the douch bag to stop  in his tracks from about 40 feet and identify himself now. He starts telling me he from Purdue and doing a survey of the damage to old growth trees in the area from the tornado. He did ID himself.

No, he made a claim.  I'm Thomas Jefferson from the Central Bank.

I tell him to produce Id place it on the ground and step back to the back of the patio aboout 30 feet and keep hands where I can see them. I retreive ID place it on the near by gas grill and dial the c phone to local pd with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the trigger. You have no legal right to request ID from anyone.

Anyone who is on his land under the color of authority needs to display that authority on request.  This permits the landholder to determine if a crime is being committed, i.e. tresspassing.  Can you show me the statute and the remedy for demanding ID improperly?

I get a dispatcher that know me, and I tell her I have a subject that was in my opinion attempting to enter my garage and I was holding him at gun point, Car dispatched asap. Officer arrives code 3 screwing up the rock in driveway What is code 3? Code 1 is lights, code 2 is lights and sirens is code 3 lights sirens and torches?.

These definitions vary.  For example, the Chicago police define Code 3 as: "Emergency situation; use lights and sirens."

Thank god It is another officer I have known for 15 years. I tell him what I have and as he walks up I clear my AR, and pull the 1911 from under my sweatshirt. and lay them on the grill. kepping hands visable. He retrives dumbasses Id and put him in back of squad car and calls in ID. He finds out that yes they are doing tree survey in the area but they need homeowner permission before entering private property. He lets dumbass chill in the back of his squad car while we talk, he had never seen a EOTECH before, he made a point to schedule a day to go shoot my AR when the weather gets better. AS I am picking up the AR and 1911 he gets the dumbass from the back of his car. This is the best part, He proceeded to give one of the best dressing down of this dumbass I have ever seen. He even told the puke that had I shot him I was protecting my property. Dumbass was complaining that I pulled a gun on him, he told him just WTF do you expect you came onto his property, without notice and were going to area you should not be. It ended up with the officer talking dumbass back to the head of the survey team with instructions to leave his patrol area. So basically one of your buddies happened to arrive and didn't arrest you because you are old friends.

Arrest him for what?  What law in IN did he break?  Can you show me the statute?

Thank god It is another officer I have known for 15 years.

This is interesting. Could it be that you knew that you overreacted, hence the relief that the responding officer was someone you knew; otherwise, why would it matter?

I retreive ID place it on the near by gas grill and dial the c phone to local pd with one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the trigger.

No trigger discipline, no control of weapon.

I think you sir are a jumpy, parinoid, and in need of some serious type medication.

This civilian has got to go with overreaction. Former JBT??? If your only tool is a hammer all problems start to look like nails.

+1 for overreacting.

The tree-survey kid will be telling this story for the next 50 years about how he almost got shot by a crazy gun-nut with a "machinegun".  Situations like this end up painting all of us in a poor light.

The appropriate response would be to call 911 and verbally confront him while having your pistol concealed. IMHO


..But then again, maybe I missed the zombies disguized as old-growth-tree-surveyers thread... damn SEARCH function...

Yeah good call on mag loadout.

My backyard is like Fallujah with Zombies. I usually have a beta stuffed with raufoos and if I hear a twig snap during my afternoon tactical nap I buzz Chuck who of course got his Shrike first and wait to hear a few belts sing through his rig while he's clearing the sandbox and swingset. I brush off the chip crumbs and empty brewski's and let him fly wingman while I empty the beta on the garbage can corral.

Sometimes the fireman are pissed so I try and have plenty of hot wings and we tap a keg in the shed.

Blazin' Bart could learn a thing or two from ya.

Quoted: one hand keeping Ar trained in his direction safety off finger on the  trigger.

I thought your response was a little much, but then I do not live there and do not have
to deal with Meth problems. However, the statement I cut out above is mind boggling